Subaru Outback Forums banner

2012 3.6 Torque Converter Rumble

34K views 67 replies 21 participants last post by  YeuEmMaiMai 
#1 · (Edited)
I wanted to post this as an FYI for others who have this issue. Other people have experienced it and there is another thread here.

My 2012 3.6 Outback with 48k miles had been experiencing an occasional "shudder" or vibration where the whole car would shake as it if was running over rumble strips. It most often occurred driving around 50-55 mph between 1500-2000 RPM in 4th OR 5th gear going up a slight incline. I remember it starting a long time ago but, at the time, I assumed it was just the transmission not downshifting fast enough. But it got more and more frequent.

I took it to Rafferty Subaru and they verified it (labeling it Torque Converter Rumble) and replaced the torque converter under warranty (under the 60k mile Power Train Warranty). I got it back last night and so far the vibration is gone. I am VERY glad we didn't have to do a drawn out reprogram of the ECU (which they DID do to complete the TC replacement) or new transmission fluid, etc that other people in the other post had to go through.

I hope this thread can help other people if they have the same problem.
 
#5 ·
Just as a secondary warning the CVT fluid should also be inspected per the owners manual and most likely drained and filled by 60K at the latest from what seems to be surfacing regarding failed shift selenoids on CVT's that have gone 100K on the original fluids.

Don't forget that you have a stand alone front diff and rear diff that need gear oil service also.
 
#9 ·
Generally speaking Torque converters are very easy to replace, slightly harder than rotating tires but I used to replace them just as fast. Not sure why people are getting quotes of almost $2k except that dealers are over priced.

Even with limited tools I'd suggest most people (that rotate tires and change oil) could do this in their garage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 30917
#10 ·
Looks like it's my turn for the Torque Converter Rumble with the 5EAT. Mine started doing it today under similar circumstances as others; 45-55 mph under load wile going up a long hill. The whole car rumbled and jerked noticeably on a 100 mile trip from Michigan to Indiana. I wish I could find the TSB number on this, but my searches so far have not turned up anything. I've only got around 40,000 miles on it, so if it's the torque converter replacement that has worked for others, it will be covered under warranty. The hard part will be convincing the dealer to do anything since there are no hills within a "test drive" distance of their shop. Without a long hill to load up the drivetrain, the symptom does not appear. I'll probably just have to ignore it until it gets much worse. Between this and the very loud drivetrain whine I have when the car is cold (less than 20F) that the dealer can't fix, I'm getting worried about Subaru drivetrain quality control.
 
#65 ·
I had the same issue. I made the mistake of doing a transmission flush, and it seemed to fixed the problem. Therefore, the dealership couldnt recreate the problem, and I haven't felt it since. I dont know what to think about it.
 
#12 ·
chrisi,


With 130,000 miles on your 3.6R, how often have you done an ATF drain-and-fill? I'm planning to do my first one at 30,000 miles. I think that change interval may cause these 5EAT units to last quite a bit longer....
 
#13 ·
I check the fluid level, but I have never done a change. Strangely, Subaru has no recommendation I, or my mechanic, can find. I go to a private shop, but he owns several Subarus and is in contact with the dealers in our area. I am adopting a wait and see attitude at this point. Certainly if the torque converter goes south I will get a complete change then.

Changing the fluid certainly can't hurt anything, I've just been following my guy's lead.
 
#14 ·
Guys this should also fall under the Subaru gets involved fix also. Subaru has been covering most if not all the cost to replace these. Given some of the service notes issued by Subaru regarding TC problems Subaru is likely to handle these regardless of your warranty status. But!! Having some maint history in the system like Diff service and AT fluid service makes it easier for Subaru to say hey were fixing it for you vs telling you to pay up or file a warranty claim.

The TCs the past few years have been a week spot for Subaru. Yes the 5eats had known TC issues also.

Before paying up contact Subaru and ask for some assistance. I do think Subaru got some parts cost discouting from the TC maker due to the known issues. By asking for assistance Subaru is able to pass that cost relief to you.
 
#15 ·
TC replacement is actually technically easier than replacing a Clutch and clutch gear during a clutch job on a manual. Fewer parts to fool with and less labor.

I would say $400-$500 labor time max and Subaru if aware should be giving you the TC for nearly zero cost. $1700-$1800$ is just greedy Dealer trying to keep his 3-4x shop profit going since he cant be doing a $500 12minute 30k oil change while doing your TC swap.

Get the TC part cost from the dealer, if its more than $500 tell them your going to talk with Subaru about getting some cost relief on part cost. Negotiate the labor cost by asking what the book time is for a TC swap. Then do the math. It shouldnt come anywere close to $1800.
 
#16 ·
I have posted on recent vibration in my 3.6r 2012 that just hit 81K. My vibration is very inconsistent, typically feel at higher speeds, comes and goes typically traveling on highway after some time. I have not noticed the vibration when climbing elevation. I do not here any noise, just feel some vibration in the floor board and sometimes minor vibration in the steering wheel. I have had the tires balanced several times and vehicle aligned to no avail. I would like to know more details on symptoms for a bad torque converter, specifics would be greatly appreciated. I am hoping my issue is a bad tire, but starting to get concerned that it may be a torque converter, but since it is very inconsistent and typically at high speeds (65mph+), not sure if this falls under the TC symptoms.








Thanks,
VAGator
 
#17 ·
I have not been able to find a Subaru Technical Service Bulletin on the converter issue, so I can't relate any specific symptoms. I don't even know yet if my vibration is the TC. It doesn't happen consistently and I know the dealer can't do anything unless they can reproduce it.
 
#18 ·
Inconsistent is my issue as well, I just drove over 600mi, mainly interstate, but also rural country roads. Sometimes, smooth as silk, but sometimes the dreaded vibration typically in the floor board area. During the trip, climbed rather step mountains with no vibration, but then on straight away interstate, periodically noticed vibration. Typically do not notice until higher speeds, 65mph+, when it starts, it could last several minutes up to 1/2hr, but eventually goes back to smooth as silk. I was attempting to see if rpm range made any difference, answer seems to be no. I gunned the 3.6r up highway slopes with no vibration. And sometimes going down hill I could feel vibration. I suppose I am trying to relay the message that mine is definitely inconsistent. I am hoping those owners that were diagnosed with a bad torque converter (TC) could chime in and give their symptoms. I believe I read others observed when going up elevations, but was the vibration felt every time? I also thought I read someone could hear a rumbling, is this typical with a bad TC, I do not hear any rumbling. What if a bad TC is not repaired, could this cause additional damage? Again, I hope it is in my tires (Michelin defenders), but somewhat concerned when reading some of these posts that the 5EAT is not reliable and could be causing this issue...feedback welcome.

Thanks,
VAGator
 
#19 ·
One note, I purchased the tranny fluid exchange about 1yr ago. Dealer used full synthetic ATF according to the service invoice. Just thought I would throw this out there in case there is any concern that this tranny exchange possibly is now causing the shudder. Side note, dealer charged $34.66 / qt., total $103.98 just for the fluid, ouch!

VAGator
 
#20 ·
The vibration (also could be described as rumbling but is not audible) in mine occurs only under light acceleration up a long hill at speeds over 45. It seems like the TC lockup may be involved, given the circumstances. But a TC failure could have other symptoms too. I also had the fluid exchanged last year at the 30,000 mile service (I assume it was a special "profit pack" for the dealer).

In an '11 Outback I owned a few years ago, the center driveshaft bearing failed and produced a variable vibration in the drivetrain as it went dry.
 
#21 ·
Some research uncovered the following symptoms of a bad TC and I included results of my vehicle:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> · Engine revving higher than normal – YES (but common I believe in Subaru)
· Shudder on acceleration – NO
· Less power when driving at lower speeds – NO
· Whirring sound at start-up – NO
· Increased stall speed – NO
· Loud clanking or grinding noise – NO
· Apply brake during shudder stops the shudder – NO
· Transmission slipping – NO
· Loss of acceleration – NO
· Sudden drop in fuel economy – NO
· Shuddering when driving 30-45mph – NO (only at high speeds 65+mph)
· Shuddering comes and goes – YES
· Contaminants in fluid – Unknown


From this analysis it is leaning towards less of a chance that it is a bad TC. I also read somewhere that spark plugs could cause periodic shaking, anyone have insight on this?


Thanks,
VAGator
 
#23 ·
Interesting. Does anyone have a video or something of this to understand what it is?

I have a 2012 3.6R Limited, next week or so I'll hit 90K miles. I know I sometimes have what I'd call a "rumble" or "shutter" but it's during what I would call "extreme acceleration" passing thru mid RPM's and almost seems normal. By "extreme" I mean like pulling out from a side-street in a 55mph zone and going "pedal to the floor" 0-60 (flat or uphill) and it goes away almost immediately when I reduce throttle even backing off to like 90% throttle. I think I had the fluid changed (by the dealer) at 60K service but I'd have to recheck my records to be sure.
 
#26 ·
Same thing with my 2011 3.6R. Get a little rumble from (best I can tell) under the rear footwells under very heavy acceleration from mid to top RPM range. I explained this all to the dealer when I took it there once. Of course I got the standard "could not duplicate, rotated tires" answer from them.
 
#24 ·
To the people with shutter problems, can you post the build date of your car?


I am curious to see when these cars were built. Especially in relation to the build date of the CPO 3.6 R I just purchased.
 
#25 ·
I think maybe I just experienced this phenomenon in my parents 2014 3.6R with 10K miles.


Maybe 5% of the time going uphill (we are currently in the blue ridge mountains) it will do a rumbling viberation for a brief time (seconds) then go away. I am wondering if it could be "lugging" it sounds like its only uphill and sounds like it may be 5th gear (I just posed the question if it does it again can they try downshift by 1 and see if it stops immediately). We have been on cruise control averaging 60mph. Unfortunately I haven't been quick enough to get video and its too intermittent to predict.

EDIT: And I drove the return trip...didn't do it once. Maybe it's also driving-style dependent?
 
#27 ·
My shudder is very mild, typically in the floor board, and would not show up on video and as others have stated is too intermittent. I would say the posts stating rumble when quickly accelerating could be normal, but if very violent, than possibly consider looking into diagnosing a bad torque converter. My shudder typically occurs out of the blue when cruising on the highway without any change in rpms (from what i can tell)...very strange. I am confused and not sure where to turn, hoping it may be a bad tire, but very odd that it is so inconsistent. My vehicle drove very smooth up until about 2 months ago and now somewhat disappointing to drive on highway.

Trav1s, not sure how to obtain the actual build date, but my outback is 2012 3.6r with 82K.

Millermmail, your parents issue sounds similar to mine but I do not experience the shudder only uphill. But I can also drive for quite sometime (100+miles) with no shudder. Do your parents ever feel it when not on an incline?

VAGator
 
#28 ·
I think the answer is "yes" it happens times other than uphill but I haven't ridden with them much in a while and our weekend trip was all mountains. I know it never did it coasting downhill on this trip but most of it was going either up or down, not a whole lot of flat.

Your build date should be on the vehicle information sticker located either on the Driver's door or Driver's door frame (forget which). It has like the VIN, weight, specs, etc.

And yes, the "100+ miles with no shudder" also fits with what I saw over the weekend going with them...I didn't notice it any on the way back home (also thru the mountains) although I was driving for about half that. The whole round trip Saturday was probably 450 miles and I recall maybe 5 times it happened for a couple seconds each time. I guess a little math says that's more like 1% of the time rather than my mental-math number I quoted before. We rolled over 10K miles on their 2014 model with this trip, I didn't think to note the build date.

Exactly as you say...fairly mild just a "brrrrrrr" feeling/sound with no change in how the car is performing (no pulling, no other noises, no change in speed/RPM...nothing observable) and then after a few seconds it just goes away with no change just as it came. It would be useless to go to a dealer, it's highly improbable they would feel it in a test-drive as infrequent as it is and without other symptoms I have no idea how you'd even ask them to look.

Probably won't get to see it in their car for a while again, we don't do many trips these days.
 
#31 ·
Hey want to jump in here. Just last night I bought a 2012 Outback 3.6r from Annapolis Subaru in Annapolis MD. It was hard to get the car up to highway speeds in town there, and I do not know the area, but it ran great, had great pick up and was very clean, inside was almost perfect. Really liked the car so we bought it. Driving the 1.5 hrs home, at about 30 miles away from the dealer I felt the first rumble. Thought I hit a rough spot in the road or a rumble strip, but saw nothing... it happened again, then again... So I started to pay attention to the road and if I was running over bad parts of it. I was not... I determined it was happening around 50-60 mph. It did not need a hill, pretty flat around here, and it seemed to happen at intermittent times. It has a short 90 day 3k mile warranty. So I call the sales guy I dealt with and he documented it. I thought it might have been the rear cv axle or maybe a bearing in/on the drive shaft... This am on the way into work I could pretty easily duplicate it. Usually around 55-60, and sometimes around 40 as well. Tried to shift etc, but it didnt really change much. It never lasted for more than 5-10 seconds if that... and it is just like going over a rumble strip at a stop sign. I have not had a chance to look it over underneath too much... I did a bit prior to purchase, but nothing glaring, no leaks etc... looks pretty good really. Has about 98K on it. From service records, it would appear this was a known issue as they did several tire rotations and balances, 4 wheel alignment, and an ecu reflash. (They did drain and fill the tranny fluid. Think they did a filter too.) I asked about all that and he said he did not know.. I asked specifically about the reflash, and why they did it.. he again said he did not know, and said maybe an update... I guess... but to me they were trying to fix this, and knew it was there... I really like this car, and want to get it fixed.. so I will be in touch with them again today and reference this thread.

Just want to see what you all think, first is what I am describing "torque converter rumble". And second does replacing the torque converter fix this? Should any of the solenoids be replaced too? I am sure there are several they could do while in there. Nova blue indicates that this is not a bad job. I am sure I could do it, but I am opting for getting it done under warranty if possible.

Thanks
Schaeff
 
#32 ·
Schaeff, what you have described sounds like the problem others (including me) are are having. It may be happening under slightly difference conditions, but it's likely the same thing causing the shudder. It also sounds like it was a known problem with the car you bought. By all means get it repaired under your dealer warranty and then report back here on the fix.
 
#33 ·
Sandroad, Howdy!

I am taking the car back on Monday and they are giving me a loaner. Ive been kind and cool but firm, telling them that I know they knew this was an issue prior to selling it. I have emailed them, included links to this thread. The salesman I dealt with, Andre, was great and said they would make it right. I am pushing for a new tranny, but doubt they will go that route. I could do all this myself, but a new tranny is 4.5k and a TC about $700, retail, But with the warranty, I am going to use it. Should have turned around right away. But I do like this car!

So the rumble/shutter seems to be a prevalent issue. I have not found any threads saying this causes problems long term or what its cause is. Do you or anyone else know? Some have said it seems to be shift related, I am thinking that is true. To me it sorta seems like the engine is bogging down for just a short time. I think I said it lasted 5-10 seconds... well it is not quite that long, often less than 5 seconds I would say, or right near it. I am feeling it every time I drive it, and around 40 mph and up around 60, could be just over, or just under both speeds. The car has around 98k on it, and it drives perfect in all other respects. The tranny fluid was just changed, and It looked like the pan was dropped as new sealant seemed to be there. I looked at the fluid before the test drive and it was clean, and new. The service records indicate all needed work was done, and it had no leaks I could see.

Thanks for the reply Sandroad, I will report back to you all, the outcome of this to be sure!

Schaeff
 
#34 ·
I don't know specifically what's causing the shudder in mine. I'm hoping to figure that out before I take it in for repair because I've not had much luck with my dealer's diagnostic skills. Someone on here said there was a technical services bulletin on the problem, but I can't find it. I had a Chrysler minivan a couple years ago with exactly the same symptoms and it was caused by a problem with the lock-up mechanism in the torque converter. Chrysler's "fix" was to reprogram the AT software so the torque converter never locked up. That led to overheating of the transmission, so even though the vehicle was still under warranty and I could have pursued a fix, I traded it in to that dealer for a used Toyota on their lot and never looked back at Chrysler again. There are no reports yet on this forum of the shudder in the 5EAT causing other problems, but it's not right and should be fixed. (I don't think it's an engine problem or other driveline problem, BTW).
 
#36 ·
It seems our families have similar tastes in automobiles. Has a Town and Country that my wife drove and she complained of something like this, that I just now remembered when you mentioned it, but I never experienced it. I hated driving and working on that car. That vehicle has a bad rod knock and 280k, so it owes me nothing at this point, glad its dead.

I agree with you and that this is not right, and should be fixed, I hope it can be. I also agree with you and dont think it is an engine problem, I think it is a shift point or TC lock up problem. (But I really know nothing of either.) I wonder if it is solenoid related. Had an olds intrigue that did a similar thing but it was much worse. It was my daughters car, and she kept driving it and it would stall at stop lights but start right up and drive fine util you stopped again... never really knew what that was, she sold it for next to nothing.... having gone through 3 trannys.... :frown2: When I said it felt like a stall out I was just sorta reaching... and its not really accurated, but its what came to mind. I will keep ya posted!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top