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Tongue Weight Over 200 lbs. Possible to offset?

31K views 44 replies 13 participants last post by  SergioK 
#1 ·
Question about tongue weight from a new Subaru OB owner and "hopefully" future camper.

I am interested in trying to get a camper for me and my wife for this summer. We have a 2014 OB with a 4 cylinder 2.5i

Tonight I was looking at the Aliner Expedition and Ranger 15. These two would appeal to my wife because of the "toilet". The Expedition has a tongue weight of 240 and the Ranger 15 has a tongue weight of 220.

Is there a way to lighten the tongue weight so this camper could be a contender for our family?

Curious
 
#2 ·
Sure- don't add any weight forward of the trailer axle. Or work out how to move an existing load from the front to the back of the trailer. Obviously you can only move certain things.

You'll certainly need to add things to the trailer for camping. Water, propane, food, clothes, outdoor toys etc. if you can figure out how to store all of those things in areas behind the trailer axle, the balance will shift. Maybe it can be customized with the water tank or battery or other heavy item installed further back.

I would show up at the trailer dealer with a bathroom scale and a helper or two. Put the tongue on a jack stand on the scale and see how much helper needs to stand where to get it to balance you want.

It may not be practical to ignore forward built-in storage compartments that work against your balance attempt, but you won't know unless you try.
 
#3 ·
In order to avoid sway, the tongue weight will need to be at least 10% of trailer weight or in that vicinity. So you'll need to pay attention to total weight if you move things around to lighten the tongue. Anti-sway hitches can help, but they can't compensate for a badly loaded trailer.
 
#4 ·
Agreed- and to be clear, my above advice could be read as "load your trailer the wrong way, and deal with lower speed limits."

I guess the big question here is trailer total weight. If it was designed for proper balance, it ought to be 2200-2400lbs.

That's not impossible for an outback, but it does slot in above the sweet spot and should be regarded as a very heavy haul. You'd be wise to limit speed and distance in this scenario.
 
#5 ·
No problem - check page# 19 of Aliner manual for weight balance and/or distribution.
As posted earlier and above, shift weight of loaded "junk" towards the back to lighten the tongue...I installed Yakima bike rack on the spare (back) tire (on my Ranger 10 Aliner) so, when you haul 2 bikes in the back, that may do it!



http://www.aliner.com/media/2817/manual.pdf
 
#6 ·
Be very careful that you do not reduce the tongue weight percentage below 10%.

Car suspensions and even the Subaru Outback do not handle trailer sway very well where as a heavier vehicle such as a pick up do better.

It is much more difficult to get a swaying trailer under control with the soft suspensions cars have.

When loading the trailer try to put the heaviest items as close to the trailer axle or slightly behind the axle when trying to lower the tongue weight.

Putting heavy items on the rear of the trailer may get the tongue weight down but will make the trailer more sway prone.
 
#7 ·
Sway is the product of speed the only way you cure sway is by slowing down even just going the same speed as minor sway the sway will build on its own and eventually take you off the road. Doesn't matter what type of vehicle the only fix is to slow down or shift weight forward in the trailer to increase stability.

Jogosub has a great rig and some miles towing his thats not too different and he went through a pretty long list of research options looking for the right trailer. Keep in mind most very small trailer folks don't use the potty in the trailer unless its a must and no other option for obvious reasons. Keep in mind that most of us with towing experience have found that 1800lbs and under is the ideal approach for your all up weight. At 1800lbs we find regardless of engine choice you start running into cooling capacity challenges with the car. My camping rig is around 1300lb packed but its a 4x6 tent trailer not a hard side with zero fancy stuff just two queen bunks and an open floor.
 
#8 ·
If the trailer has electric brakes you should be fine, even with a tongue weight of 220lbs. It isn't documented anywhere (for legal reasons) but the U.S. tow rating for the Outback is drastically reduced compared to other countries (think lowest common denominator nut behind the wheel). Same vehicle, rest of the world:

2.5
With trailer brakes: 1500kg (3300lbs)
Without trailer brakes: 750kg (1650lbs)
Maximum tow ball down load: 150kg (330lbs)

3.6
With trailer brakes: 1800kg (3960lbs)
Without trailer brakes: 750kg (1650lbs)
Maximum tow ball down load: 180kg (396lbs)

Obviously, if you tow at these higher weights you must be much more cognizant of your surroundings and you shouldn't be yaking on your cellphone while sipping your soy latte. ;)
 
#10 ·
If the trailer has electric brakes you should be fine, even with a tongue weight of 220lbs. It isn't documented anywhere (for legal reasons) but the U.S. tow rating for the Outback is drastically reduced compared to other countries (think lowest common denominator nut behind the wheel). Same vehicle, rest of the world:

2.5
With trailer brakes: 1500kg (3300lbs)
Without trailer brakes: 750kg (1650lbs)
Maximum tow ball down load: 150kg (330lbs)

3.6
With trailer brakes: 1800kg (3960lbs)
Without trailer brakes: 750kg (1650lbs)
Maximum tow ball down load: 180kg (396lbs)

Obviously, if you tow at these higher weights you must be much more cognizant of your surroundings and you shouldn't be yaking on your cellphone while sipping your soy latte. ;)

Does Subaru change something with the OB's in other countries? How do they rate the tongue load at 330#'s and 396#'s...???? Folks on here had the OB falling apart and potentially bending at 201#'s of tongue weight...what is the difference (if anything?) in the "unibody" construction (which is what should be the limiting factor) in the tongue weight limit...the engine size should have NO EFFECT on unibody strength yet the 3.6L has a 396# tongue weight rating???...now I'm confused...sorry for the sidetrack but this is important...because you need to have a properly loaded trailer for stability (btw I've towed a 9000# 35' tip to tail travel trailer all over the country and have 10's of thousands of towing miles in all kinds of terrain and weather so I know a thing or two about towing and towing hitch setups. My setup had ~1250#'s of tongue weight CAT scale verified).


Specific question I have is DOES SUBARU RATE THE OB's as stated above for TONGUE WEIGHT ONLY or not in other countries? I am not interested in towing stability in so much as tongue load capacity...perhaps SOA decided to limit towing capacity and thus lowered tongue weight capacity too in the US but the unibody is truly capable of more if they rate it as such in other countries???
 
#9 ·
Never use UK / Euro tow ratings for US spec and travel they are nothing like each other regarding speeds and use that we have here in the STates.

Yes you can bend a unibody car and many towing regulars such as my self can 100% say that no the OB regardless of engine choice does not like to tow heavy much beyond 1800lbs on long trips involving the wide range of outside temps and climbs that we have here in the US. Europe been there driven on their roads they drive much slower than we do here and much much shorter distances. They do not get passed by truckers doing 80mph while going across Nevada and Utah like we do here.

If you want to post advice make sure you know what your talking about!
 
#12 ·
I agree, something is fishy about those tongue weight ratings. Slower speeds allow you to maintain stability with a lower tongue weight to total weight ratio, but they don't affect the ability of the rear suspension to keep the rear wheels from hitting the fenders or the leverage that unloads the front wheels. Unless the suspension is different outside of NA (or the rest of world specs are assuming a weight distribution setup), the tongue weight maximum should be the same everywhere.

As for stability, my boat trailer is setup with about 7% tongue weight (175 lb, total weight 2500 lb) and I have never experienced instability when towing with my old Outback (2005 2.5i). I have had it up to 120 km/h (75 MPH) on divided highways, descended twisty 6% grades at 100 km/h (60 MPH), and passed oncoming trucks on 2 lane roads at 100+ km/h (65 MPH). The only time I have ever experienced trailer instability was when I forgot to unload some scrap metal from the back of my utility trailer (an old tent trailer) after a dump run. It got a little squirrelly going downhill at 100 km/h, but it was OK at 90 km/h. When I got home and unhitched it, the tongue weight turned out to be negative.
 
#15 ·
Boat trailers are funny animals all the weight is center or behind the axle which means they have a long distance between the hitch and the axle typically making them the most stable type of trailer you tow. The best towing trailer I've ever towed besides a 5th wheel horse rig with three axles was my 21ft racing sailboat hitch to stern we were 28ft long, all up with trailer weight we were 1800lbs with 450lbs of lead sitting right on the axle. That trailer would track strait doing 85mph across Nevada going through wicked thunder storms. Not the same animal as an RV in any way or form.

And yes cooling capacity is the #1 issue 2500lbs I've done it once and 80 degree temps you can spike temps easily. Even the owners manual states the cooling limits.
 
#13 ·
As pointed out earlier in this thread. Empty weight is not including things like water in the water tank for the potty, the battery, and propane tank. Also most base empty weight listings by RV companies are without the added options of things like the potty, heater, water heater etc.

Given with the subaru your splitting hairs between having a rig that works and one that doesn't its very very important to know EXACTLY what your weight is. There is a very active weight thread over at Expedition portal with full sized pickup owners weighing their packed weight with campers and finding they are way over the max gross vehicle weight their trucks are rated for. Its been a bit of a surprise and many of them are now trying to sort out what their campers really weigh given most suspect that the Camper weighs more than what the manufacturer has listed its weight at.

Not to mention all your gear and passenger weight plays into this not just your empty trailer weight.
 
#18 ·
As I said earlier...I have 10's of thousands of miles towing...and thousands of posts on RV.net assisting other RV'rs setting up their rigs...most like to use "ONE" rating when trying to "justify" their RV choice "fits" behind their mfg ratings...the ONE rating most will choose is GCWR (gross combined weight rating)...WHY do they pick that one?...easy...that ONE rating will typically be exceeded LAST. The FIRST one that will typically be exceeded is either the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) or GAWR (gross axle weight rating). Typically most will NEVER hit a CAT scale...but that is critical. Tow ratings are typically figured with a STRIPPED DOWN car (i.e. minimal optional equipment) and ONE 150# driver. That is how the "payload" is typically calculated..."payload" is the sum of EVERYTHING you put INSIDE or ONTO (i.e. tongue weight) a vehicle. The sum total accounts for what the vehicle weighs as loaded (fuel, gear, people, tongue weight, optional equipment added, etc.) and there is a LIMIT on the drivers side door sticker as to this. This one rating will likely be the FIRST to be exceeded and ignored. Most see "max tow rating" and say I can tow THAT MUCH...and ignore the "*'s" associated with that rating...that "max" is a mythical max in many cases. Also to properly select the right tow rig for the job you need to hit a CAT scale to balance everything out and know your weights and you need to stay within ALL ratings not just the ones you "like" :)


As far as tongue weight rating...I'm not advocating exceeding that...I already mitigated my issue by the purchase of a small utility trailer...I just find it "odd" that the rating is nearly DOUBLE in Europe and would like to know what's up with that...
 
#20 ·
Here it is, what it boils down to, published so many times by others...

But, since Crapie "blocked" my posts, he/she may not read this...oh well...

The reason that American vehicles are rated to tow less is based on a difference methodology for tow safety.

US tow safety prioritizes a naturally safe dynamic situation so that more people can pull at freeway speeds with less likelihood of incident. There is no doubt that using this method results in an inherently safer tow situation as it relates to vehicle dynamics.

EU tow safety allows for the possibility to carry more weight, but erring on the side of caution with far less safety margin in respect to the physics.

Bottom line - Can a tow vehicle pull a heavier trailer there than is rated for here in the US? Yes, with some provisions:

1. The closer the trailer weight gets to the vehicle weight the slower you will need to drive.
2. DO NOT exceed 65 mph with a tongue weight in the 4-7% range, this is a guaranteed way to sway and 65 is the max, go slower in regards to #1.
3. None of this takes into account crosswinds, cooling systems, hp, or braking effectiveness.

Moral of the story:
European: Be happy that you can pull that huge caravan with your tiny car (especially Dutch)...LOL

Americans! Be proud you can pull more weight in total and with a greater degree of safety and at higher speeds than our Euro friends.

Note: DON'T assume for one second, that you can simply use Europe as a guide to towing above your limit, it’s not going to be safe at our speeds, roads, climate zones and countryside contours (as Subie mentioned)...
 
#22 ·
with only 200lbs tongue wt. limits... is there something one can do with hitch mount Bike rack with 4 bikes.. (2 adults and 2 kids(20" MB) These are not super expensive(Light wt.) bikes, (Older Trek and Huffys (from walmart).
Will getting a bike rack with hitch lock helps? (like this one: Thule Revolver 4-Bike Hitch Rack and Thule Hitch Lock

I am concern I will be very close to the 200lbs limits... Should I install the Hitch on a minivan instead?(Sienna)
 
#24 ·
AWD my approach will be parents bikes on the lid with the roof box and the kids bikes either on the trailer if we are camping or on a hitch rack if the trailer is not in tow. 4 bikes hanging off any vehicle is just a huge mess of bike and they really hang far out there. I have a few scuffs on the bumpers of all three cars now from people backing into my cars I don't want my expensive bikes smooshed by someone not paying attention either.

For short house to local trail trips its probably fine not ideal but your probably OK. For long road trips my preference is bikes on the lid where I can see them while taking bio breaks or a stop at the hamburger joint etc and the whole loaded weight factor not dragging your rear with the springs bottoming out down the road is a better ride and better drive from the drivers seat also.
 
#23 ·
So back to the real question do Subarus tow Ok? YES they tow great! As long as you understand that there is a big difference between towing say a 1500lb trailer thats packed and ready to go and a 2500lb trailer thats empty and hasn't been packed yet.

Even my fully packed with all items needed including trailer weight 1800lb boat behind the car after lots of years towing it started towing that rig and racing it back in 1988. You race year around and travel up and down the West coast Washington State to San Diego and into the Sierras in the summer for Sierra lake events and even across to Dillon Colorado you get a good sense of tow vehicles with the same trailer. The subaru towed it great I simply ran out of cooling any time outside temps got into the 80's and I had any reasonable average climb that lasted more than a mile or so. The boat was 1350lbs all up with all required gear needed to race/sail it, trailer weight placed me at 1800lbs. I rarely towed it with anyone but me in the car given yes the added weight of more passengers made a difference on the hills.

Which is why I used my truck when we hauled people and extra gear beyond just me and the boat.

This is also why when I started shopping for our RV camping rig when we sold that boat in 2012 my target was no heavier than 1200lbs empty and ideally lighter if possible given I like taking the subaru its more efficient at that weight and more comfortable to drive than the truck. The rig I ended up with is the original Life Time Tent trailer its 890lbs with tent empty with spare tire nothing else. I'm adding a locking tongue box which will add a little weight to the whole package and add some weight to the tongue weight but the box will only be used to hold simple trailer related items like tie down straps, tire chalks, and a plastic folding step. I won't be putting a battery or gas can in it.

I'm researching options for how I can carry one or two water jugs on the trailer given this summer out west many camping locations will have little to zero potable water due to our epic drought. That will add weight also. Then of course all our camping gear and toys. Full up rough numbers suggest the trailler will be between 1500lbs if we pack the kitchen sink and half the house with us and probably in the range of 1300lbs with our typical gear. I've been hauling this trailer in a wide range of weight configurations given you can remove the tent and use it as a high sided utility trailer. Its made several runs to the dump due to house projects and downed trees this year where the trailer was running around the max axle rated 2000lbs weighed at the dump scale. The Subaru tows it fine the 15minutes drive which has about 8 minutes of 6 lane highway traffic. But our road trips and camping trips the ideal set up is that 1300lb-1500lb max range where we can go anywhere with plenty of pull power, AC running summer temps comfort etc all while typically running in the 21-25mpg range. That makes for a great camping / cross country combo.
 
#28 ·
Thanks all! I have read all of the replies.

Subiesailor, I have come across your posts in several other threads. You mention 1,800 is a good target weight.

I am now open to the Scamp 13'. If I keep it at or around 1,800 will I need to get a transmission cooler added. Or will I be okay as is? (My initial camping goals is to our nearest lake/camp grounds 1.5 hour drive. Minimal up and downs)

Curious and thanks!
 
#26 ·
Yep the thing I hate about the local trail trip is in my case my roof rig is fork mount which means I need to do the whole dance to take the bike apart and put it back together to ride it and my local trail is about a 8 minute drive up through a steep canyon back road and the trail runs across the ridge line at the top. Not a fun ride to ride the bike to the trail head hence the car trip etc. If I ever stumble onto a cheap tray style hitch rack in our local freebies or mothers face book club I'll grab it just so its an easy load and go effort but we will rarely if ever use the hitch for longer trips to haul the bikes.

Currently my 5yr old is just getting comfortable sans training wheels fingers crossed she's 100% this summer!!! My 3yr old is a light weight and rides in the big seat racked on the back of the my old beater MT converted to Daddy mule mode front panniers for the farmers market and kid seat bike is pushing 100lbs with the kid and the farmers market loot on board but nicely balanced LOL. Sunday I had the old junker trailer hooked up with both kids bikes in it and mom was hauling my daughter on the trailer bike behind her bike to the school to do some bike riding practice on the tarmac. I rode my 29er for the first time last week in about 4 months and I nearly fell off it in the first 10 minutes because it was so **** light ha ha.
 
#29 ·
Question #2 of the night: I saw this comment posted on another site. "You should NEVER tow anything with a CVT. This, I know for sure. It’s a $5000 gamble."

I am pretty sure my Subaru OB is a CVT. So... How do I digest the comment above?

Curious
 
#31 ·
shad6: You will be OK without AT cooler....but, you should add a brake controller! Towing anything over 1000 lbs calls for one...but, I see (on Scamp 13 website) that electromagnetic brakes are an option - you should get that option then.......my A-Liner Ranger 10 comes with those brakes as standard equipment.
The reason I have decided to get an A-Liner is that, when you are towing it, you have lower wind resistance (since it's flat folded) and therefore better handling and overall towing.
 

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#32 ·
Jogosub,

How will I know if I ever need a cooler? I don't see any temperature gauges on my dash.

Yes, we will get brakes on anything we get. Thanks for checking.

Also, Jogosub... Do you know anything about CVT transmissions pulling trailers? Will I need to use Manual and my paddle shifters?

Curious
 
#34 ·
I also plan to tow but the lakes across the street lol anyways look into a larger trans cooler I found the ones on late 90s F150s to be large plate style and im sure it is up to our tasks


also its something you can do cheap get a upgrade OEM quality part and have just an added peace of mind if you ever have the question ,,,do I need it ..Not anymore ;)

 
#35 ·
As you all know (especially Jogosub and Subiesailor) i've been researching and considering a pop up camper for over 2 years now. I'm one of those compulsive researchers and then when I finally pull the trigger and take actions its usually my first choice or a very educated decision last choice compromise. Things i've learned along my researchcapades (made up word, but couldn't resist) are the following:

-Go as light as you can without sacrificing what you are going to use it for (i.e. if you need something with a Queen bed and room for two adults, but the stripped down version (i.e. you can get a Starcraft Starflyer 10 as a 1300 lb trailer or you can get it almost 1700. This is dry weight, but just think you can add more cargo if your dry weight is less)

-Don't mess with tongue weights over 160 lbs on the spec sheets. Remember that if you add a propane tank that's another 30-40 lbs. Also when you add cargo (if its balanced) your tongue weight increases. You don't want to be signalling E.T. with your headlights

-Not balancing your trailer and throwing tons of stuff on the back to ease the tongue weight will make your rig much more prone to jackknife. Get a buddy who can be your mentor as you figure out how best and safe to load your rig properly

-Get a brake controller and don't buy a camper without brakes that's over 1000 lbs dry. Surge brakes are fine, but electric brakes with an in-car brake controller give you a much more secure stop. Also get a proportional brake controller as it gives better control. Non proportional units only give you a % up and down setting. It was $485 to have a Prodigy P2 Proportional Brake Controller and the 7-Pin/4-Pin Plug installed on the back of my car. I had already had the 2" receiver hitch installed before

-You've likely been intrigued by the Livin' Lite Quicksilver pop ups. I have too and i'm still searching for a used one. Take a look at the mid 90's Fleetwood Coleman Destiny series. The Royale model has a queen bed and a full bed along with a dinette and is a 10' box. Its 120lbs dry and 125# tongue weight. Don't rule out the old stuff. Quite a few people only use these once or twicce per year and for the rest of the time they are in garages.

-My local Subaru dealer said I wouldn't need a tranny cooler for a 1500# camper. They said when Subaru says its rated for 2700 #'s it is without any modifications. I would never try towing 2700 lbs though unless I was on flat ground

I'm probably flawed in my research, but that's what I've been told

I'm actually looking at a mostly aluminum 1968 Apache Ramada which is a rather large camper (13' box), but is only 1250-1350 lbs and has a tongue weight of 1235#'s. You can sleep 7 people comfortably



Jon
 
#36 ·
^^^ good research...

Just get what will fit your individual or family needs... we each have our preferences and scenarios.

As far as weight distribution, I always carry an old bathroom scale with me, when camping. After I load my A-liner (before each trip and/or towing) I double check my tongue weight each and every time; most of my stuff/junk is around the middle (axle area) on the floor and I move stuff/junk back and forth and using brace rods (like cloth hanger rods or shower curtain rods, that expand) to eliminate shifting. I try to keep 170 lbs as an average tongue weight.

My brake controller is the same that I have installed on my Baja - with proportional braking feature.

My camper is 1800 lbs - it pays to have the weight checked on a public scale (where truckers weigh their rigs) and get an exact weight and a printout. I do it on Kangaroo truck stop or gas station periodically. It may be an overkill but it's a piece of mind.
 
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