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How Good is the CVT Transmission??

191K views 161 replies 73 participants last post by  KSKarl 
#1 ·
My first time posting to this forum, but I have a fundamental transmission question for the members. I plan to be a Subaru owner in the very near future, probably an Outback, or possibly a 2014 Forester. For handling mountain grades, with extended downhill sections, can the CVT be shifted down to retard the vehicle so you don't have to ride the brakes so hard? The 2.5 models come with the CVT, whereas the 3.6's come with a conventional 5 speed auto w/ paddle shifters. My concerns are tending me to go for the 3.6 just to get away from the CVT. I see where the mileage seems to be better with the CVT, but I worry about slippage and ineffective downshift control. I plan to do some light trailer hauling (1600 lbs) in addition to general highway and errand running use. Do these CVT's do a decent job? My Ford Superduty has the Tow/Haul mode which really works great, so this is kind of setting my expectation.

Thanks for any info and experience you may offer.

Infidel
 
#100 ·
3 CVTs in barely 24k for me and now waiting to hear if I'll need a 4th...so my opinion is not the most favorable. I still think there has to be something else going on to cause the string of CVT failures in my '12 Premium, but they just can't seem to ID the problem. I love my Outback, but I think I may be done with this experiment. I'm sure I got a lemon as my issues seem isolated. I guess I just drew the short straw this time.
 
#101 ·
1.) Your case seems HIGHLY unusual given just how few issues there have been with the CVT's - I think you're the 3rd person I know of to actually have a failure - much less 3-4!

2.) Would you have any luck with lemon lawing it? I sure as heck would try - no way I'd stay in the car given how many issues you've had
 
#103 ·
Hello

Re: Pedal shifting, does the CVT go in speed 5 and 6 in low speed? Or does the speed have to be high in order for the pedal shifting to be able to go to speed 5 and 6?

Note; this is my first auto, have always driven a manual.
I am about to buy a used 2010 OB, cvt. I did a test drive around 70km/h zone and drives good. I tried the pedal shifting and in 60km/h zone and it only went to speed 4, could not go to 5 or 6.
Is this normal or is there something wrong? Will it go to speed 5 and 6 if say the speed was at 100km/h

Would appreciate your responses, thanks in advance
 
#105 ·
Not really sure what your asking? Can you force it to shift into the wrong gear for the given speed using the Paddles? No the new Automatics all retain some level of self preservation logic that prevents people from doing silly things like say trying to put it in 6th gear while doing 5mph or say dropping it into 2nd while do 90mph.

The CVT has 6 fixed gears in Manual mode which can be used by the driver for a range of reasons typically the most common is down shifting to help hold speed while going down hill pretty common use for us CVT owners. Manual mode 1st and 2nd also have a different AWD power allocation when in Manual 1st or 2nd given typically when someone manually selects 1st or 2nd its for a reason that would find a more aggressive AWD power split useful like say hauling a boat up a slick boat ramp, climbing a rugged steep snowed over driveway etc.

Automatic mode the CVT alters far far more gear ratios than 6 it also uses a taller ratio from a standing start under normal use. Think of the new Automatics as having lots of logic designed into them for various conditions and uses to offer the best possible combinations of capability. The X - drive offered in the Forester is simply another level of fancy logic that enables the CVT to apply various capabilities in rugged off road conditions that help keep the car moving and also control speed with decent control etc.
 
#104 ·
Hello

Re: Pedal shifting, does the CVT go in speed 5 and 6 in low speed? Or does the speed have to be high in order for the pedal shifting to be able to go to speed 5 and 6?

Note; this is my first auto, have always driven a manual.
I am about to buy a used 2010 OB, cvt. I did a test drive around 70km/h zone and drives good. I tried the pedal shifting and in 60km/h zone and it only went to speed 4, could not go to 5 or 6.
Is this normal or is there something wrong? Will it go to speed 5 and 6 if say the speed was at 100km/h

Would appreciate your responses, thanks in advance
 
#106 ·
You know, as a brand new owner to a Subaru CVT of any kind, I took notice of the seeming lack of threads regarding issues related to this transmission. If you look anywhere else at the high volume sales cars like Nissan, you will find many. I think that is noteworthy and speaks of the commitment to quality Subaru has. They are not perfect, but their second try around at CVT seems to be working out great.
 
#108 ·
Hey "Duc" I really appreciate your comments on the CVT. I am a manual transmission guy (I prefer to drive my vehicles versus just steering them) but, unfortunately, we are looking to replace my wife's 2005 Outback Limited (which has the turbo 2.5) for a new Outback Limited for her. While my wife is quite capable with a manual she prefers an automatic transmission. Living in Colorado a Subaru is a perfect vehicle choice for her and we loved her 2.5 turbo. When I began researching the new Subarus I was disappointed to discover that the Limited with the 2.5 only came with the CVT vs a "regular" AT. I came to this site to see what people had to say about the CVT and found your comments to be very beneficial and informative (especially since you have had personal experience with both the 2.5 with the CVT and the 3.6 with the 5EAT) and I thank you for them. We have yet to test drive either but are leaning towards the 3.6 just because it has more HP and avoids the CVT which I am just not comfortable with - not sure I want to drop $30+k on a vehicle with a transmission that I'm not 100% comfortable with. Thanks again, you have helped make up my mind - pretty sure we will opt for the 3.6.
 
#111 ·
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...83-would-you-buy-2011-outback-100k-miles.html
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...25-2011-ob-2-5-cvt-69k-head-gasket-blown.html

That's all I got...

CVT's are becoming more common. I expect to see JDM's, rebuilds, remans, and repairs all bring the price down from the often quoted 8k figure to replace the CVT. Also aside from a couple of exceptions failures simply don't come up here. "The CVT is expected to last the life of the car," is also often quoted by Subaru which prides themselves on the fact they have a lot of older models still on the road.
"Subaru vehicles are built to last
96% of Subaru vehicles built in the last 12 years are still on the road.[2]"
http://www.subaru.com/why-subaru/reviews-awards.html

What that means for the CVT? We have yet to see. The 4EAT and 5EAT have an awesome reputation now. But no one knew for sure when they first came out how they would perform. That fact we aren't hearing about CVT failures like the whole "Subaru head gasket thing" shows that they are becoming "reliable."

Taking the following data one can find on the iternet (as reliable as that can/can't be):
http://www.truedelta.com/lemon-odds-results/09-2013&order=nada&asc_desc=&chart_type=
http://hondaquality.wordpress.com/honda-reliability-myth-busted-data-shows-otherwise/
For it's worth, Honda had issues through 2002 but since then the failure rate dropped substantially.
 
#119 ·
You do realize that the CVT in Auto mode has a far far wider range of gearing options to play with and that the Manual gears are simply just set ratios assigned to the Manual mode think of the Manual mode as simulated fixed gear options being given to you by the CVT.

The CVT uses far more ratio combos based on far far more data feeds than you simply stuffing a car in 6th and leaving it there lugging it when too slow or not moving up to the higher ratio at higher speeds. I know the CVT gives the manual mode the lowest 1st ratio physically possible but I doubt it gives you the tallest physical ratio at 6th gear.
 
#122 ·
At 70-75 mph on a level interstate, our 2013 CVT Legacy
cruises at about 2200-2300 rpm. Naturally, it goes higher
as the load demands -- 2800-ish on mild grades and I've
seen it go over 4000 on steeper climbs. Of course, it'll
wind up to 5700-ish when the loud pedal is on the floor.

Since a taller car has more aero drag, I'd expect the OB
to need a little higher cruising rpm, but 3000 sounds too
high, especially if it'll hold speed at 2000 in manual mode.

Looby
 
#124 ·
Belt Slipping and Sqeeling

Hi all,
Read all this thread, but only 2 people wrote about technical problems of CVT. Usage and performance is great by my standards. But this time its not the story.
So I have the little seen problem with CVT belt slipping. The cause of it might be secondary pressure sensor, but thats yet to be discovered. The first and obvious choice from the dealer is - change whole gearbox. I'm not so interested in this option, because I have 140k km on it and I am out of warranty. So new gearbox - 8000$. Nice :) Eaven if the problem is 300$ secondarry pressure sensor and it can be raplaced, belt and rollers could be permenently damaged - they cost aproximetelly 3500$. And that is all not counting the labour. So thats my start of the story. Still to see the end of it.

I am very dissapointed because I chose exacly this car because of CVT. Othervise it would be diesel engine.
So the car is 2011 2.5 nonturbo CVT with 140k km on it.
So how i see it - when out of warranty it is a gamble. You wouldn't want to be the 1% who has to pay 8000$ for a new gearbox.
I centanly didn't expect such costs from a 3 year old car.
 
#127 ·
Hi all,
Read all this thread, but only 2 people wrote about technical problems of CVT. Usage and performance is great by my standards. But this time its not the story.
So I have the little seen problem with CVT belt slipping. The cause of it might be secondary pressure sensor, but thats yet to be discovered. The first and obvious choice from the dealer is - change whole gearbox. I'm not so interested in this option, because I have 140k km on it and I am out of warranty. So new gearbox - 8000$. Nice :) Eaven if the problem is 300$ secondarry pressure sensor and it can be raplaced, belt and rollers could be permenently damaged - they cost aproximetelly 3500$. And that is all not counting the labour. So thats my start of the story. Still to see the end of it.

I am very dissapointed because I chose exacly this car because of CVT. Othervise it would be diesel engine.
So the car is 2011 2.5 nonturbo CVT with 140k km on it.
So how i see it - when out of warranty it is a gamble. You wouldn't want to be the 1% who has to pay 8000$ for a new gearbox.
I centanly didn't expect such costs from a 3 year old car.

Have you considered looking for a transmission out of a wrecked car? From what I have seen, you could probably find one with low miles for $2k dollars or less.


Repaired/rebuilt Subie CVTs have not quite made it into the independent overhaul pipeline yet, but probably only because the demand (And failure rate) is so low. I would not hesitate to use one from a wrecking yard, preferably from a car with primarily rear end damage.
 
#125 ·
In my area, there's no such thing as "flat". Even seemingly flat areas do have a grade when you look close, and that "eco-meter" kind of makes them more obvious.

But cruise set at 70-75, it averages about 2100 rpm. That's without doing anything manual.

One thing I'll say (and I like), this car is a champion coaster. Low rolling resistance, I guess. When you coast, it really holds it's speed well. More coasting seems to be the key to getting high mileage for me. Obviously when slowing down for exits, turns, stoplights, etc., coasting kicks the crap out of wasting energy by braking. But I can gain a lot even cruising on the interstate with gentle hills. Cruise on uphill, hold speed, cancel cruise at peak, coast downhill, resume cruise as it levels out.

When I feel like paying attention to stuff like that, I can easily get 32-34 mpg in my 1 hr commute in summertime, and still around 30 in the winter. But I don't always pay such close attention. When I resort to "just driving" I get 28-29 in summer and 24-26 in winter on the same commute. Mostly highway, mix of interstate and 2 lane twisties.
 
#126 ·
In my area, there's no such thing as "flat". Even seemingly flat areas do have a grade when you look close, and that "eco-meter" kind of makes them more obvious.

But cruise set at 70-75, it averages about 2100 rpm. That's without doing anything manual.

One thing I'll say (and I like), this car is a champion coaster. Low rolling resistance, I guess. When you coast, it really holds it's speed well. More coasting seems to be the key to getting high mileage for me. Obviously when slowing down for exits, turns, stoplights, etc., coasting kicks the crap out of wasting energy by braking. But even on gentle hills. Cruise on uphill, hold speed, cancel cruise, coast downhill, resume cruise as it levels out.

When I feel like paying attention to stuff like that, I can easily get 32-34 mpg in my 1 hr commute in summertime, and still around 30 in the winter. But I don't always pay such close attention. When I resort to "just driving" I get 28-29 in summer and 24-26 in winter on the same commute. Mostly highway, mix of interstate and 2 lane twisties.
Same here with the 2010 2.5 CVT with 60,000 miles on it. No extended warranty and yes I had the local Subaru dealer do a drain fill at 60K so we have all of the notes and arguments on record with Subaru if things were to go south. So far no concerns. I have about the same chances of winning the Super Lotto this week vs having the CVT find a way to fail. One thing interesting that most people don't know, CVT's have fewer parts than the traditional AT so in theory your chances of having a failure ie failed part is lower ;-) thats if your into playing the odds game.
 
#129 ·
I didn't read all the pages so I don't know if someone post this but I just happen to do this last night.

I read some complaints about the rubber band effect of the CVT so I did a test at about 40 mph. It was not bad at all. Actually it was even better than those standard trans on Toyota/Lexus cars we had. I don't like Toyota program their trans, always maximize for fuel mileage.
 
#130 ·
Whats funny is that the rubber band effect has two pieces to it. The engine ramping up power through the RPM's and the lack of hard shift points of the CVT gives you the sensation of the rubber band effect. An electric car is 100% power from the second you press the pedal ie no rubber band effect as the motor gains rpms and with that power output.
 
#132 ·
You can change it. It's not super easy, and I'd take it to the dealer.

According to the owners manual, you don't HAVE to change it, that is, unless you tow or have other "severe" driving. When you get down to it and read what "severe driving" means, everyone drives severely!!!!

Pretty sure Subiesailor does his share of towing with his OB.
 
#134 ·
Yep we tow. Been towing with Subaru since 2001. Zero issues. 60k on the cvt zero issues, had it serviced by the local Subaru dealer recently. $184 no big deal. Had them do the front and rear diffs also $110.

Through experience I would highly suggest not towing more than 1800lbs. Once your in that 1800lb range constant vigil over running temps is very important! My camping rig by design was a 1200lbs and under dry weight shopping list. The trailer I bought is 900lbs empty. My old racing boat was 1800lbs all up be hinde the car. Towed great but required smart packing of extras, and monitoring running temps in warm weather.
 
#135 ·
Wife's Crosstrek XV has the CVT, and while I found it a bit odd at first it does work ok and provides good gas mileage. I found that if I get on the gas too hard at first it has the "slipping clutch" feel, but the car is actually accelerating. Paddle shifters not so much on the CVT as there aren't really "gears" but they work for decel on grades.
 
#136 ·
CVT Cooler Lines and Reliability

1. Is there a cooler line to the radiator that can be disconnected to purge the fluid in the CVT (then refill)?

I'm looking at a 2011 model, and would also like to add an additional cooler in-line when I service the fluid. Yes, I believe in extra-redundant cooling.

2. Does anyone know if adding a cooler to the CVT is possible?

I'm not thrilled with going to the driving dynamics of the CVT, but even more hesitant about the prospect of reliability well after 100,000 miles. Previous Subaru 2.5's with automatics have been very reliable in the hundreds of thousands of miles. I really want a 2009 model with the old gearbox. This one just came up. The CVT failure rate seems low on the late models while they are recent, however repairs are expensive!

3. How reliable is the CVT?
 
#137 ·
1. Yes. I don't like the thought of doing a flush this way but yes, there is a cooler line.

2. I haven't heard of anyone doing it but it should be possible. Keep in mind though that you can likely achieve much in terms of improved cooling and heat resistance by upgrading the factory fluid with a synthetic. Red Line CVT fluid is a good example.

3. It is not possible to give a good answer to this without data. What you'll likely get is a bunch of anecdotal answers. "Mine gave in at x miles". "Mine is still running strong at y miles". So my answer is flawed from the start since I don't have data to back it up but I will say that the cvt appears to be pretty reliable if you service it regularly. It appears to have a relatively high error rate once you exceed 100k miles and haven't done any fluid service yet (here's where you'll have anecdotal pointers to the contrary - there are people on this forum with well over 100k on non-serviced CVTs). If you keep a minimum of 60k fluid replacements (I do twice as often as that) it should last a long time.
 
#138 ·
.........2. I haven't heard of anyone doing it but it should be possible. Keep in mind though that you can likely achieve much in terms of improved cooling and heat resistance by upgrading the factory fluid with a synthetic. Red Line CVT fluid is a good example. .........
IMO I would be very surprised if you got much support from mother Subie with a CVT failure while using aftermarket fluid.
 
#145 ·
Great when it works!

I like it on my 14 Outback. Really nice not to have it lurching/surging when it needs to change a drive ratio, like the old automatics and manuals.

But my CVT just started making weird abrasive whirring noises last weekend (at about 9600 miles) so it's in the shop right now for a warranty replacement. I haven't used it hard and only taken it on a few farm/mountain roads so I'm surprised it's failed so soon.

My Mom's 15 Forester's CVT seems tuned to be a little more snappy/responsive than my 14's.
 
#146 ·
@phaem @OBDad - You two are to be commended. Instead of duking it out, phaem calmly questioned the issues, and OBDad admitted to being human yet still made his point(s). I'd like to point out to the young'uns on this forum that THIS NEVER HAPPENS ANYMORE! Thank you for showing us a level of adulthood which many should strive to hit.

Oh, and, 2014 OB 2.5 owner, CVT with 49K on the odo, it's meh. Nothing special, wish it was geared differently (whines too much, revs too high for my taste). I understand this is better in Gen 5, though. Still, I'll take meh over crappy any day.

My main problem now is trying to figure out why my car has dropped 2-3 MPG after taking off the stock Contis and slapping on sweet Pirelli Cinturato P7 AS tires. These are supposed to be low rolling resistance tires, so I expected to get AT LEAST what stock gave me. Now I'm hitting 25-26 MPG instead, and still finding it difficult to hold a line (especially on "grooved" pavement in MI). :p
 
#147 ·
My main problem now is trying to figure out why my car has dropped 2-3 MPG after taking off the stock Contis and slapping on sweet Pirelli Cinturato P7 AS tires. These are supposed to be low rolling resistance tires, so I expected to get AT LEAST what stock gave me. Now I'm hitting 25-26 MPG instead, and still finding it difficult to hold a line (especially on "grooved" pavement in MI). :p
Are they the same diameter as stock? if not exactly then the odometer is going to be off which makes it hard to calculate true mpg until you figure in the percent it is off either + or -
 
#148 ·
Also, what is the weight of the tires? They could be a bit heavier than the Conti's.

From the reviews on Tire Rack, these may be my next tires as well. Maybe add a post under the tire section on how they are performing, I'd like to know that's for sure.

As for the CVT, I've yet to have the fluid changed and I'm at 50K miles... Maybe it's time.

Deanski
 
#150 ·
Well, sorry to have turned this thread into a tire ramble! I actually posted more info in this thread on the P7s: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...s-grand-touring-all-season-2.html#post3315905

However, to answer, they are the exact same dimensions as the Contis. As for weight, I have no idea. But in the above thread, I mention I've been running the P7s at 31-32psi (the dealer filled them to that pressure), and I think that's way low. The tires have no recommendations on them anywhere for standard and max fill pressures, though, so I don't know if I can take them up to where I had my Contis or not. I think I was running about 38psi on those, and finally had a decent stable ride (and better MPG to boot), but they did wear quickly.

As for my CVT, I'm also running the original lube at 49K. Yep, definitely past time to get this car in to Subaru for an all-points look. Belts are squeaking, too, so it's a good excuse. :wink2:
 
#151 ·
Well, sorry to have turned this thread into a tire ramble! I actually posted more info in this thread on the P7s: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...s-grand-touring-all-season-2.html#post3315905

However, to answer, they are the exact same dimensions as the Contis. As for weight, I have no idea. But in the above thread, I mention I've been running the P7s at 31-32psi (the dealer filled them to that pressure), and I think that's way low. The tires have no recommendations on them anywhere for standard and max fill pressures, though, so I don't know if I can take them up to where I had my Contis or not. I think I was running about 38psi on those, and finally had a decent stable ride (and better MPG to boot), but they did wear quickly.
I updated that other thread, as I finally found that the tires were max PSI 40. I'm trying 38PSI this week.
 
#153 ·
74k on the 2010s both of em. So far quiet and smooth, zero complaints. Our 2016 ford cvt is quieter but the car was 35k invoice and has a executive level interior with impressive quality materials. That cvt is quick on the park to reverse or reverse to drive change up compared to the Subaru CVT. The torque converter on the Subaru Im convinced is really the big culprit for most of the complaints and also seems to be the weak link in the system. Out side of that Im pretty happy with the OB paired with the cvt. A 3.6R Legacy? No it deserves a more performance oriented transmission.
 
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