2013 Outback vs 2013 Venza on ice test by AMCI.

[Gelacy]

Originally Posted by subiesailor

A couple of posters happen to think more weight would be a bigger issue LOL - they clearly do not watch ICE ROAD TRUCKERS ha ha. The more weight the more friction generating ability a tire has Ice or no ice.

That video really proves nothing and is just a big waste of time LOL

Wow, that video was obviously paid for by Toyota instead of just ASKED by Toyota, lol. The fact that they think a Toyota Venza's real world results come in WITHOUT load at the rear of the vehicle just means they're aiming this at people who don't KNOW Toyota's AWD system sucks. Seriously, the fact that the announcer/narrator tries to sound like a corny technical/news reporter is so... cringe-worthy.

He looks like he's trying to report on an issue from 1990. That bad acting is horrible and so cheesy, LOL, ESPECIALLY at the end. I'd LOVE to see them test their "numerous" vehicles on inclined planes AND on the rollers.

[Georgeh]

FWIW, George Doganis is a highly accomplished driver. He has multiple SCCA Solo II national championships to his credit, and based on the google hits, has done rally racing as well. He is an amazingly fast and consistent driver which is why he is paid big bucks by lots of car companies to evaluate their cars. He knows more about driving cars, testing cars, and car tech in general than you or probably anybody who reads this thread.

You are way off base saying those guys are amateurs, or are easily bought off. It's not the case at all. You should get your facts straight before making such accusations.

[Primotenente]

Originally Posted by Georgeh

OK, thanks for the reference. I can see why, on a car with open diffs, it makes sense to keep the electronic traction control on permanently.(...)

It depends - Subaru has done both. As you can see in some postings above, my EDM MY2005 3.0 5EAT has VTD, VDC AND rear LSD together.

Switching VDC off, switches everything off, stability control, engine management and traction control. Subaru seems to have changed this in the facelift about 2007, when they introduced VDC to all engines/transmissions. Since then, switching off VDC, leaves the traction control part always on.

But those Outbacks still had a rear LSD. Rear LSD was then dropped with the introduction of Gen4.

[dboz]

Originally Posted by Thai

Look, there is no denying what we saw on the video...Venza's AWD system is perfectly adequate in the condition tested.

Tires did NOT come into play significantly...as i stated above, if anyone had a disadvantage on the ice, it is the Venza with it low-profile 20" tires.

BTW, my ContiProcontact is indeed M&S rated on the sidewall. And those Venza Goodyear RS-A tires are dead awful...much worst than ours!

If you go back about 3-4 or 5, 6, 8 pages and watch the BMW ICE RINK video (http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/474630-post29.html), it also proves that BMW RWD system is also perfectly adequate taking off in the condition tested (ICE RINK). They performed their test with NO TRACTION MAT AIDS EITHER. It has absolutely nothing to do with AWD. Will AWD help when tires are not up to par....yes. As the BMW video shows, better tires get ANY vehicle moving faster on ice. FWD, RWD or AWD. PERIOD. Will RWD allow a car to take off on FLAT ICE with no impediments to hinder it, YES!!!!!

As to speed of take off. A vehicle with more power will typical accelerate a car faster provided it has traction. Traction matters that is why you use slicks instead of street tires for big horsepower cars at a track for MAXIMUM acceleration. You can accelerate with crappy tires, but it will just be slower. Again, this test could be more about tire grip. The VENZA tires are wider which could be said to cause a snow shoe effect in snow but could also create a wider contact patch and with the added vehicle weight allow for more traction. You could also argue the opposite that a more narrow tire focuses more weight to a smaller contact patch which could allow more grip. Again allowing for TONS more variables to this test.

The biggest item missing from the VIDEO is what models did they test?? V6/H6, V6/H4, V4/H4, V4/H6?? ( 181 hp @ 5800 rpm, 182 lb.-ft. @ 4200 rpm OR 268 hp @ 6200 rpm, 246 lb.-ft. @ 4700 rpm for the VENZA andSUBARU listed at Power: 173 hp @ 5600 rpm Torque: 174 lb-ft @ 4100 rpm OR Power: 256 hp @ 6000 rpm Torque: 247 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm)

They mention nothing about which engine so you can understand possible power differences. So power differences, vehicle weight differences etc., are all variables here. Again,this video does not address any of that when they use SPEED as the testing measure.

RS-A tires only come on the V6 as far as I can tell from TIRE RACK. The 4 cylinder models use BRIDGESTONE DUELER H/L 400 and they also list TOYO OPEN COUNTRY A20 as OE tires?? So which tires are on the tester? Could be a big difference.

Now if the VENZA AWD system allows less wheel slippage and as stated it has WORSE tires, then what this test proves is that it may help ever so slightly to have AWD. It would have shown more had they used a REGULAR VENZA as a third vehicle that was FWD only.

I will stick with my opinion that the AWD system is obviously doing something, but after watching the winter VIDEO ( http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/474921-post55.html) with the VENZA and CROSS TOUR, not sure any one posting has actually watched it??? It shows the VENZA in snow making its way and spinning all 4 wheels. It did not look to be going very well but again, traction is traction and with nothing to compare I cannot make a statement that SUBIE would be better in the same exact conditions.

SO, too many things going on to make any AWD statements. Put the BMW with RWD in this test and lets see how it compares. Again, adding obstacles would be the better test. That is why the vertical roller test is better since it demonstrates torque transfer which is what will get the vehicle moving.

[statueim]

Originally Posted by Thai

...if anyone had a disadvantage on the ice, it is the Venza with it low-profile 20" tires.

Not necessarily true. I see no reason that the sidewall aspect ratio should significantly impact ice traction of the tire. A low sidewall aspect ratio might force the width of the actual tread to be slightly wider than it would have to be otherwise (since section width is the widest part of the tire and almost never describes the actual tread width) which would in turn give a slight advantage in pressure to the tire with the narrower tread width. That said, the Venza already has a weight advantage which would most likely cancel out this pressure difference (if not still giving the Venza the advantage based on its weight).

I can see why a taller sidewall is certainly would be better for snow driving since it better prohibits snow from collecting in the rim when driving through deep snow (which would decrease the resistance of the snow to the wheels/tires doing what you actually want them to do).

As I said earlier in this thread, the rubber compound used and the design of the treads would likely have far more influence on the results of a traction test on ice--all else being equal.

One thing I think people are getting hung up on is mistakenly taking the video to claim that the Venza has a better/comparable AWD system (which is what Toyota really wants), but the video is just comparing the two stock vehicles on glare ice and little more. The stock Venza does a good job at keeping the car going straight and taking off faster on the ice when one wheel has traction and the others do not in this situation--certainly better than a FWD or RWD vehicle if one of the drive tires is loses traction.

How many Venzas and Outbacks will end up stuck in the snow this winter with all the other cars because they think AWD is the cure-all for winter driving (and not tire traction), that remains to be seen.

[Thai]

As i wrote above, in the condition TESTED, the Venza did well. How that applies to real life? I don't know. But, to blame that the OB did not beat Venza in THAT test because Venza had superior tires is nonsense.

The Venza in the video has 20" rims...thus, it is a V6 model. 20" rims come with Goodyear RSA tires, which are quite shitty...cheap and horribly bad. Then you add in that this is a low-profile tire, things don't look good for the Venza in the tire department. Low-profile tires TEND to care less about all-season traction (no matter the M&S rating). I doubt that the RSA is the exception.

Tire for tire, the OB Conti's are much better.

Finally, don't forget, the Venza got a facelift this year...so, Toyota could very well have re-program their AWD system to perform better than past Venzas...which may explain the improved performance.

Toyota may make crappy AWD systems in the past, but they are NOT new to 4x4 and certainly have the money for R&D. Their 4x4s systems are very robust and effective.

[Gelacy]

Originally Posted by Georgeh

He knows more about driving cars, testing cars, and car tech in general than you or probably anybody who reads this thread.

You are way off base saying those guys are amateurs, or are easily bought off. It's not the case at all. You should get your facts straight before making such accusations.

Oh? Maybe you should take your own advice. Someone telling me I don't have my facts straight but then saying I don't know more about cars has no room to talk. That's the assumption of an ignoramus without the ability to critically think.

Please, go be a hypocrite somewhere else because it's completely obvious you're obnoxiously ignorant when it comes to gauging someone's experience in the car industry. As if you would know what minds roam this board that are on someone's level of rally experience and car tech. I'll keep it simple: I believe the saying is "bless your soul, poor child" and I'm not even religious. But I do understand the pity that IS shown towards your ignorance when you judge someone based on the assumption someone knows more about these things than you do.

Bless your soul, poor child.

[statueim]

Thai, I am not disagreeing with you about the fact that Toyota very well could have improved the AWD system such that it is now comparable to Subaru's, but I still do not agree with your statement that the tires on the Venza are worse for this test since there are no concrete numbers backing it. I agree, the Goodyear RSAs appear to be all-around worse performers for all season conditions given tire rack reviews and the fact that they have such a small sidewall. But strictly for glare ice on new tires, I am not sold that they are worse-performers than the ContiProContacts that come on the Outback.

All I am saying is that this test is inconclusive at best for comparing the two AWD systems given how much role traction plays in determining how fast a car can take off on ice. A good test for comparing both cars in this specific condition? Yes. A good test of AWD systems? No. Again, I'm not saying that you are saying it is a good test of AWD nor do I disagree with you that the Venza's AWD system could be much improved and comparable to the Outback's AWD. All I disagree with is the statement that the Venza's tires are definitively worse for these test conditions and could only have a negative impact on the Venza's performance on glare ice. It's possible that the Venza's tires are worse tires than the OB for glare ice, but it isn't true statement by default just because the tire has a low-profile.

[Thai]

Well, you think that RSA is THAT much better than Conti's to make up for an inferior product in THIS test? Personally, I don't see that.

[dboz]

THAI,
You are missing the point. This says nothing about AWD. It is on flat ice using traction mats. All it says is that TOYOTA can make all 4 tires move. It does not say they have ROBUST and EFFECTIVE AWD systems. This test does not prove that for either car. Let's just keep it real. The VENZA could be equal or better, but lets see a test in some elements like mud, obstacles etc.