Interesting Day at the Dealer - Routine Maint / Manual Q's

[GBMaryland]

So,

I take my 3 month old Subaru Outback (2013 w/ Eye Sight) to the dealer to have the oil changed.

The service rep tells me that the tires need to be rotated.

I ask (and state) "What's what going to do for me? Aside from wear all the tires out at the same time? I really think I should just replace the fronts with the same ones, and then repalce all four the name time..."

The service rep says "Well, if you do that, replace the front tires only, and the rear tires have less tread on them, then Subaru can refuse to warranty the transmissions / transaxel(s) if something goes breaks."



Of course, I said to him in a loud voice that everyone could hear "Are you telling me that Subaru transmissions are so feable that if the tire tread is 1/16 of an inch different from the front to the rear that they fail?"

He didn't have much to say.

I went on to ask what the SERVICE manual says. (Nice guy, but didn't know.) ...and I then told him that I'd pickup the service manual for the 2013 Outback and find out for myself.

That got me a look, and a comment: "Service manuals are pretty expensive."

Me: "I can live with $150.00..."

Him "They aren't that cheap..."

Me: "Are you kidding?"

He was right: $350.00 at the stealership for a 2013 service manual!!

Wow.

Now for the question:

Does Subaru REALLY not warranty your car if your tires don't have EXACTLY the same amount of tread on all 4 wheels, or even front / rear tread differences that are not below the wear indicator?

GB

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by GBMaryland

So,

I take my 3 month old Subaru Outback (2013 w/ Eye Sight) to the dealer to have the oil changed.

The service rep tells me that the tires need to be rotated.

I ask (and state) "What's what going to do for me? Aside from wear all the tires out at the same time? I really think I should just replace the fronts with the same ones, and then repalce all four the name time..."

The service rep says "Well, if you do that, replace the front tires only, and the rear tires have less tread on them, then Subaru can refuse to warranty the transmissions / transaxel(s) if something goes breaks."



Of course, I said to him in a loud voice that everyone could hear "Are you telling me that Subaru transmissions are so feable that if the tire tread is 1/16 of an inch different from the front to the rear that they fail?"

He didn't have much to say.

I went on to ask what the SERVICE manual says. (Nice guy, but didn't know.) ...and I then told him that I'd pickup the service manual for the 2013 Outback and find out for myself.

That got me a look, and a comment: "Service manuals are pretty expensive."

Me: "I can live with $150.00..."

Him "They aren't that cheap..."

Me: "Are you kidding?"

He was right: $350.00 at the stealership for a 2013 service manual!!

Wow.

Now for the question:

Does Subaru REALLY not warranty your car if your tires don't have EXACTLY the same amount of tread on all 4 wheels, or even front / rear tread differences that are not below the wear indicator?

GB

I hope you take this the correct way. Its customers like you that we like to FU-CK with.

Tire rotation is standard protocol at every oilchange for the AWD Subaru primarily due to the AWD system and with the OB the raised suspension are hard on tires. Most dealers will do it with no charge when asked. Most seem to charge $20 for it if you don't ask.

As for improper tire care with AWD yes all auto companies reserve the right to deny warranty claims involving failed or failing AWD systems caused by improperly sized tires. Given the AWD systems depend on tires being more or less equal in size and wear.

By the way being an A S S Hole to a dealer or for that matter any shop because they simply offer what they normally do - is like being a jerk to wait staff before your dinner arrives. No telling what the wait staff pissed in - spit in or dropped on the floor before it made it to your table. This sort of lesson in life tends to apply to everything and even more so to places outside the US where people are less likely to find your antics amusing or acceptable

[subiesailor]

By the way the proper response is Oh - no thank you I'll pass on the tire rotation today.

[plain OM]

The issue with all full-time AWD's (not just Subaru) is that the circumference of the four tires have to be, essentially, the same. Otherwise, the four wheels won't turn at the same speed, tension can build up in the drive train, and this can damage drive train components.

Tire manufacturing isn't perfect, so makers of AWD vehicles usually provide a recommended limit to differences in the circumference of the tires on their cars. For Subaru it's 1/4-inch (again, it's the circumference, not the diameter, or radius).

This is also why you will find threads here with the common story "I blew a tire, and it has to be replaced; the dealer is saying I have to replace all four." Again, the reason is that the new tire will have more tread than the other three old tires.

To give you some perspective on this, if you have two identical tires, but one has a tread depth that is 1.3/32 of an inch lower than the other, the difference in circumference will be 1/4-inch. It's doesn't take much in the way of tread wear to result in this.

Consequently, the dealer is, indeed, suggesting that you rotate the tires so that they all wear at the same rate.

Is this published somewhere? Yes indeed.

This is on page page 11-39 of the 2011 Owners Manual, and others should be similar if not the same:

All four tires must be the same in
terms of manufacturer, brand
(tread pattern), construction, degree
of wear, speed symbol, load
index and size. Mixing tires of
different types, sizes or degrees
of wear can result in damage to
the vehicle’s power train.

See Tire circumference spec confirmed by Subaru (TechTips) for a related discussion.

And, for a Factory Service Manual go to SOA's tech info site: Subaru Technical Information System - Welcome

[SeanU]

You don't need a service manual, just look in your owners manual. I believe for all 2010 - 2013 outbacks tire rotation is at every 7500 miles, which coincides with oil changes on the 2.5i. Every dealer has their own "recommended schedule" which you don't need to follow to keep your warranty. Tires with uneven wear will cause damage to your AWD system... so get them rotated on schedule.

[1 Lucky Texan]

how many miles have you put on? It may very well be the dealership was trying to pad the bill slightly. I also think your service schedule mentions tire rotation. I suggest you also read up on the proper procedure for using the spare tire anf having the car towed. Both those can damage the drivetrain if done improperly.

anyway, as subisailor said, it's specifically because the AWD system is so GOOD, that rolling tire size must be kept very close - in the past the most common number was all tires withing 1/4" CIRCUMFERENCE. This is to prevent torque bind. This issue is not unique to Subaru either.

[JAvendan]

Seriously, all you had to do was deny the service.

A simple no.

Or, like subiesailer, no thank you.

Joel

[GBMaryland]

Guy's, you rock... yes, I was purposefully being difficult...

I've owned MANY cars over the years, but this is my FIRST AWD vehicle.

Generally, rotating the tires does nothing but insure that you have worn tires at ALL four positions. This is not useful, when you can just replace the really worn tires on the front of the vehicle. I liken this to a dealer telling you to repalce your oil every 3000 miles, when the manufacturer tells you to replace it every 7500 miles.

So, it's clear, I've been corrected in so far as the Subaru is concerned. I thank you for that. Looks like I'm rotating and repalcing them four at a time...

...and to be clear, the Service Manager was a great person. There is no doubt I gave him crap, he was completely professional, and I was able to determine if he really knew what he was talking about.

[He's a former Subaru mechanic, though it appears that he's not been wrenching for about 5 years, I'd guess.]

Interesting point about the circumference difference... I guess the only other way to fix that is to make sure your vehicle can be put into 2 wheel drive when you have a blow out, something to remember for the next car.

I should point out that I asked if this was a Subaru requirement OR a dealship policy. I didn't get answer, and I asked two times. He did give me an explaination, similar to the ones above, but he'd lost credibility in my eyes once he didn't answer the first question. [So at this point I'm wondering if he's feeding me a line.] Once we started talking, it was clear he knew all about older Subarus, and was probably taken aback by the fact that I was asking detailed questions (and getting progressively more annoyed as answers were not forth coming).


As far as the service manuals: I like to know how my vehicles are constructed.

I also like to know just what's in a job when I take it to dealer.

The Owners Manual is decent, but it lacks certain technical details I'm interested in. More to the point, when I've asked questions politely, I've gotten different answers. It's interesting how "Sir, I really don't know, we'll need to check" doesn't come out too much:

- Do I have a timing belt or a timing chain?
- What is the factory recommend interval for changing the oil?
- Does the 3.6R require synthetic, that's what your sales guys told me?...
- When do the differentials need to have their fluids changed, and, unlike the coolant, does it require some special Subaru lubricant? [See, I actually did at least look at the Owners Manual... remembering is another story.]
- How long before I need to replace the cabin filters and the engine air filter?
- What is the next big service appointment I'm going to have and what, specifically, will need to be done?

I don't think these are uncommon questions...

My assumption is that these will be detailed in the service manual, along with the procedures for doing them.

[GBMaryland]

Originally Posted by JAvendan

Seriously, all you had to do was deny the service.

A simple no.

Or, like subiesailer, no thank you.

Joel

I did that with the first guy I spoke with over the phone... and then he went silent when I asked if it was a Subaru required service, or a dealer policy.

I will say the overall the stealership was pretty great. I may have to actually change my phrasology back to "dealership" now that I no longer own any Hondas.

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by GBMaryland

Guy's, you rock... yes, I was purposefully being difficult...

I've owned MANY cars over the years, but this is my FIRST AWD vehicle.

Generally, rotating the tires does nothing but insure that you have worn tires at ALL four positions. This is not useful, when you can just replace the really worn tires on the front of the vehicle. I liken this to a dealer telling you to repalce your oil every 3000 miles, when the manufacturer tells you to replace it every 7500 miles.

So, it's clear, I've been corrected in so far as the Subaru is concerned. I thank you for that. Looks like I'm rotating and repalcing them four at a time...

...and to be clear, the Service Manager was a great person. There is no doubt I gave him crap, he was completely professional, and I was able to determine if he really knew what he was talking about.

[He's a former Subaru mechanic, though it appears that he's not been wrenching for about 5 years, I'd guess.]

Interesting point about the circumference difference... I guess the only other way to fix that is to make sure your vehicle can be put into 2 wheel drive when you have a blow out, something to remember for the next car.

I should point out that I asked if this was a Subaru requirement OR a dealship policy. I didn't get answer, and I asked two times. He did give me an explaination, similar to the ones above, but he'd lost credibility in my eyes once he didn't answer the first question. [So at this point I'm wondering if he's feeding me a line.] Once we started talking, it was clear he knew all about older Subarus, and was probably taken aback by the fact that I was asking detailed questions (and getting progressively more annoyed as answers were not forth coming).


As far as the service manuals: I like to know how my vehicles are constructed.

I also like to know just what's in a job when I take it to dealer.

The Owners Manual is decent, but it lacks certain technical details I'm interested in. More to the point, when I've asked questions politely, I've gotten different answers. It's interesting how "Sir, I really don't know, we'll need to check" doesn't come out too much:

- Do I have a timing belt or a timing chain?
- What is the factory recommend interval for changing the oil?
- Does the 3.6R require synthetic, that's what your sales guys told me?...
- When do the differentials need to have their fluids changed, and, unlike the coolant, does it require some special Subaru lubricant? [See, I actually did at least look at the Owners Manual... remembering is another story.]
- How long before I need to replace the cabin filters and the engine air filter?
- What is the next big service appointment I'm going to have and what, specifically, will need to be done?

I don't think these are uncommon questions...

My assumption is that these will be detailed in the service manual, along with the procedures for doing them.

3.6 is designed and run on standard oil has for years. Nothing has really changed with it. But subaru just this year has more or less probably because all of their new engines the 2L and the 2.5 are ground up new engines which are actually designed with synthetic in mind.

Fair guess that subaru simply decided to avoid confusion to recommend synthetic for all the engines so not to mix people up. But the older 3.6 was run for years on non synthetic just fine and wasn't designed originally with the intention of needing synthetic by design.