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05 Torque bind issues - 'fixed' at dealer but still bad

5K views 27 replies 6 participants last post by  StacyWalker84 
#1 ·
TL;DR at bottom

So about 2 months ago I bought a 2.5L automatic (no turbo) Outback with 170k miles on it. There were some issues with it turning so I had my mom take it into the dealer because I couldn't work on it from 1500 miles away.

Long story short, here is what the dealer replaced about 3000 miles ago (copying things from the invoice, don't know exactly what each thing is):

-Plate Set Transf Clutch
-Snap Ring
-Plate Pressure Front
-Seal TRansfer Piston
-Spring CLU Piston retaine
-PT030300 Piston Clutch Tf
-Snap ring
-Shaft CP rear dr
-ring seal
-Bearing
-Hub complete front axle
-Sway bar bushings
-Replace transmission transducer(I think the filter?) and fluid

I'm still having a rough time turning into parking spots or taking tight turns. It's especially an issue going into reverse and turning. The dealer told me to go into parking lots and do a lot of figure eights which eventually loosens up everything. I'm still having these issues even after 3000 miles of driving and turning.

I live in Colorado and don't plan to drive in the snow that much but I've heard torque binds can cause issues with predictability in the snow - and I'm already fighting another battle with ghost walking when going over bumps.

While driving it across the country I noticed something odd - the tires on the left are not mirrored to the tires on the right side. Instead, all of the tread is pointing in the same direction. I'll add some pictures here in a second. https://imgur.com/a/ZY4ja

I checked the tire pressure today and noted all tires were within 39-40.5 psi. What prompted this is a new sound that becomes audile when moving. When the car is on and stationary I can turn the wheel and there are no sounds. When I begin moving it sounds like a scratching/screeching sound. It is dependent on the rpm of the wheels and seems to go away when I get up to a decent speed. I put the FWD fuse in and the torque bind goes away but there is still an awful screech. I highly doubt it's the power steering because I can turn the wheels when not moving and there is no sound. Putting the car into neutral while moving and there is still a sound.

TL;DR: Dealer 'fixed' some things, still having torque binding issues and new screeching sounds. FWD 'fixes' bind but there is still a screech.

If you need additional info I can provide it. Anything to help you help me.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Looks as if the dealer rebuilt the AWD transfer clutch, replaced a front wheel bearing hub, and replaced the transmission fluid. I'm not sure what the "transducer" is; I doubt it's the filter. It could be a sensor or solenoid. (If there's part numbers on the invoice, and labor time is noted for each item, that might provide enough information to identify the "transducer".

In my view, there shouldn't be any need to run figure 8s to loosen things. If there's binding after a repair, then either the work didn't deal with the actual cause or it wasn't done properly.

Are there any warning lights on, or flashing continuously or just a few times, in the instrument panel after the engine is started?

I believe the 2005 has a limited slip viscous-coupled rear differential. If the coupler inside the differential fails in a locked form, that could cause symptoms similar to AWD torque bind when turning. I'd like to think that the dealer looked at all the possibilities of torque bind symptoms before coming to a conclusion that the transfer clutch needed work, but perhaps not. (However, if using the FWD fuse eliminates the binding symptom, then a problem in the rear differential is less likely.)

All four tires on an AWD vehicle have to be the same circumference, within about 1/4-inch. A starting point is to check that all four tires are the exact same brand, model, size, and tread depth.

The factory spec for tire inflation (cold) is 32 psi front, 30 psi rear (it's on a label on the driver door post). Some folks use higher settings, but 39-40 psi seems rather high.

Just some starters . . . .
 
#3 ·
I don't notice any flashing lights after they all go off. I will go double check.

If there's part numbers on the invoice, and labor time is noted for each item, that might provide enough information to identify the "transducer".
Under the 'transducer and fluid' section it says

1 38325AA032 ATF Filter AY $34.93
8 SOA427V1500 ATF-HP/PS fluid $6.59

So that leads me to believe that it was the filter.

I've read in other threads about VC - so I guess they mean the vicious coupler. Maybe that's the part that failed. I'm not sure that's something I can afford to get done or even do myself since I don't have a lift. I guess I'll just keep it in FWD.

I'll go drain my tires to 32 in the front and 30 in the rear (once it's cold outside) - I read on another thread to keep the rear tires 1-2 psi lower than the front.

What about the tread pattern orientation? Would that make a difference?
 
#4 ·
First I'd call BS on what the dealer says. I agree with the first reply that says the dealer either didn't do the repair properly or they didn't diagnose it properly in the first place. It's certainly a good guess to say the center coupling needed to be rebuilt, but they should have made sure it wasn't something else before they actually did the work and charged for it.

Binding happens when a differential (either the center one or the rear one) is locked. As such, and considering they already rebuilt the center one, I'd be looking at the rear diff. 2005 Outbacks all had limited slip.

Of course the underlying root cause could be the tires. As stated above, your Subaru should always be rolling on matching tires that are rotated regularly. Mismatched or unevenly worn tires can cause driveline damage over the long haul. And 170K miles is a pretty long haul.
 
#5 ·
Ok, thanks for the reply.

My mother said when the repair was done the torque binding was MUCH better than it was before. So in a sense it isn't fixed, but less of an issue. Is it something I should take to a different shop and have them look at? I noticed you're in the Denver area - maybe you could recommend a place?

The commentary at the bottom of the invoice:

"Customer request removed and replaced complete transfer clutch assembly. Filled transmission fluid. Performed transfer clutch break-in procedure. System is operation as designed at this time."
 
#6 ·
If it was my car, I'd make an appointment with Strictly Automotive and ask if they could do a quick diagnostic drive. They're at 10th and Inca, right around the corner from the intersection of 10th and Santa Fe just south of downtown. They've always done right by me. There are some other good independent shops in the area. Look them up on Yelp or Google+ reviews if you're not sure.
 
#8 ·
No matter which place you choose, be sure they're a Subaru specialist. We are fortunate that there are so many good independent Subaru shops in Denver to choose from. They all seem to stake their reputations on getting good reports on places like Yelp. I've been pleasantly surprised how honest and straightforward most of them are.
 
#9 ·
Yes, the part number listed above is for the ATF filter. Not sure why it would be called a "transducer". Confusing, but perhaps that's all it is and not an issue.

Just to keep the terminology clear, the 4AT does not have a center differential. There's a front differential, and a rear differential, but the transfer mechanism is not a differential -- it's a multi-plate, hydraulically-actuated, electronically-controlled clutch that connects the output of the transmission to the rear propeller shaft. Hydraulic pressure is applied to the clutch plates whenever the transmission is in gear and the engine is running, but the amount of pressure is determined by a number of parameters related to the driving conditions at each moment.

I'm somewhat puzzled by the commentary at the bottom of the invoice; specifically, that transfer clutch was replaced at the express request of the customer. Is that correct? Or was the request to replace the clutch made only after the dealer determined that the clutch was defective?

I agree that perhaps the car should be looked at by another mechanic. A symptom to one person might not be the same to another and we can only go on what we have in the posts -- we can't experience the issue first hand.

The orientation of the tread on the tires would not be of any concern in regard to torque-bind type symptoms as long as the tire requirements cited earlier are being met.
 
#12 ·
The center coupling is a differential. By definition. It's true that most center differentials in family cars are no longer very similar to the mechanical, geared thing you see under the back of a pickup truck, but they're differentials nonetheless and perform the exact same function. At some point, car marketers decided the term "differential" was to be avoided, I suppose because they didn't want people picturing a giant, greasy cast iron ball full of gears and 90-weight in the middle of their car.

For ease of discussion among the mechanical types that read these forums, I usually say front diff, center diff, and rear diff, because that's what everyone used to call them and, really, that's what they are. But you're correct that it's probably better for me to start saying front diff, center coupling, and rear diff.

Center couplings in family cars are usually either the viscous type or the multiplate type that you describe. Many of those in performance cars are still mechanical. I don't know what the Jeep people and the WRX/Evo guys say, but if I had to guess I bet they prefer the term center diff versus center coupling. Whatever makes them happy.

Regardless, the coupling is a differential. It divides power front and rear, just like the front and rear diffs divide power left and right, in varying ("differential") amounts when going around corners to avoid driveline binding. The front and rear diffs mitigate binding from left to right. The center diff/coupling mitigates binding from front to back.
 
#10 ·
I'll take it and get another opinion on it. I've been driving it around today with just the FWD and it feels like it has a new life because it's so zippy now. Still a bit of screeching when turning but whatever, I'll have the mechanic look at that, check the tires thoroughly, and begin diving deeper into what you guys have suggested looking at. I'll update this as soon as I get more answers/opinions on the matter. Thanks for the help so far.
 
#14 ·
it's better if the new tires are on the same SIDE or at opposite corners but, really, if the old ones have more than half their tread left - probably OK.

most people find the best test to be idling thru tight circles on dry pavement. Should be smooth and shouldn't need any/much throttle, maybe a touch.
 
#16 ·
no link to hand, read it several times. I think I first read of it here or over at ultimatesubaru.org . That technique uses the open differentials at the front and rear 'axles' to help reduce the likelihood of a speed difference being detected by the center diff.

it does seem weird from a tire wear point of view, but the issue only exists due to trying to minimize stress the AWD system. Subaru is not the only AWD maker that has limitations on mixing tire size. Ideally, all 4 tires would match. Shaving a single replacement could be an option, but shaving 2 tires seems like a waste of money/utility. Some people have found partially worn tires on ebay to put with the set on their Soobs.

stressing the AWD system can get expensive quickly so, taking good care of it is important. And, just to be clear, the rule from Subaru has always been 1/4" IN CIRCUMFERENCE. which I think is a little over 2/32" tread depth for most of our cars.

bottomline, if the system experiences a speed difference front-to-rear, it will begin activating the AWD system to shift from the perceived slipping axle to the gripping axle. If the car were actually on a slippery surface, that's fine (indeed, desired) but, on a dry/hard surface, binding develops in the driveline - until something 'gives'.
 
#17 ·
I've also read the suggestions to put the tires on one side, or diagonally, so that the front and rear differentials each have one new and one old tire. That should ensure that the front pinion shaft and the rear propeller shaft are turning at the same speed (nominally) so that there isn't undue stress on the AWD transfer mechanism, whether a transfer clutch or mechanical differential. However, I believe most if not all 2005s have a limited slip, viscous-coupled rear differential. Having two different size tires at that differential can mean the viscous liquid in the coupler is being constantly "sheared" because the two side axles are turning at slightly different speeds. That could lead over time to failure of the coupler, either in a binding state (solution loses it's ability to be liquid), or a non-functional state (seals wear out, solution is replaced by gear oil, locking function is gone).

I believe some members here have run tires that way, with no apparent damage. But I don't recall if that was with cars that had LSDs. When it comes to the viscous couplings, usually the impact will not be apparent until there's a specific need, such as wheels slipping, and what was supposed to work, doesn't, or there's torque-bind symptoms when turning tight corners.

If I recall correctly, inserting the AWD fuse eliminates the symptom. That suggests the AWD transfer clutch is being engaged when it shouldn't be. I wonder if when reassembling the transmission, something wasn't replaced properly . . .

Hard to deal with at a distance. Was the car going to be taken to another shop for a verification . . .?
 
#18 ·
Alright so a bit of an update:

I had a minor fender bender and finally got my car back from the body shop. I took my car to a different shop and they said my right front axle has been leaking. I find that odd, since I JUST had it replaced at the dealership back in May. I did some research and it could be because of it being filled too high (is this front differential fluid or ATF????).

At this point here is what is wrong with the car:

-Torque Bind
-Squeaky front brakes
-Uncomfortable and audible ride (strut/strut bearing/top of strut related?)
-Leaky front right axle

Here is what I think I will do in order to address these issues:

-Replace the AT Fluid 2 more times (for a total of 3 times since the dealer did it) (recommendations? Don't want to spend a fortune) (http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...anging-automatic-transmission-fluid-easy.html)
-OR-
-Add a limited slip additive to the automatic transmission (suggestions on a certain type?)

-Replace the rear differential fluid (Recommendations? Don't want to spend a fortune here either)
-New front and rear struts (Thinking I'll do Front KYB 2005-2009 damper with rear KYB 2004 dampers (from: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/109-gen-3-2005-2009/28368-2005-2009-outback-suspension-faq.html))
-Resurface rotors (if they're within tolerance, dunno) and new brake pads (suggestions on both??)

I think I'm comfortable changing liquids on my own. I'm a little bit more afraid to do anything mechanical without a second set of hands which is the problem right now. So the struts and brakes might have to wait.

Something I've noticed is if the car has been sitting for a while and I turn the wheel all the way (either direction) and put the car into drive it'll inch forward until it is in the torque bind then when I put the car into neutral it'll kick back and roll in reverse a bit. The same but opposite thing happens when I put the car into reverse.
 
#20 ·
> When I begin moving it sounds like a scratching/screeching sound.

You need to get a professional mechanic to diagnose whether the car needs brakes.

> What about the tread pattern orientation? Would that make a difference?

check whether the tires are marked for outside only, or have a direction of rotation arrow.. or post the actual make model and size of your tire so we can look it up and verify what you have

At this point here is what is wrong with the car:

-Torque Bind
-Squeaky front brakes
-Uncomfortable and audible ride (strut/strut bearing/top of strut related?)
-Leaky front right axle

Here is what I think I will do in order to address these issues:
I hope you find a competent mechanic to diagnose your issues, dont guess and throw money at guesses, by telling the mechanic what to do, that you read on the internet

Do the tires match in tread depth?
Does the car need brakes?
Does the car have a loose belt?
Did you find a mechanic to diagnose and fix the front leak?

I have to tell you I almost gave up on answering all your questions, because, I really think you need professional mechanical help, not internet advice.

However, I do have some suggestions for you :). If you decide to buy shocks, I suggest you stay with the 2005 struts all around. I just tried 2004 rear, 2006 front, and I do not recommend it.. mismatched, harsh in the rear. Im going to the extra expense to get the 2004 replaced with 2006 struts. Imo the suspension FAQ is promoting a bad idea, based on hearsay and compromise. You can read more of my opinion in the last few posts of the FAQ thread.

Don't believe everything you read, seek professional help, and don't tell them what to do, let them diagnose and determine what is actually needed.

Otherwise you get receipts like you have now, where the dealer disclaims responsibility for a failed repair intervention, because they were just following (ignorant) customer orders, without proper diagnosing and testing to determine what to fix

sorry if this seems harsh, its not meant to be.. Im just being brutally honest, no offense intended..
 
#22 ·
for auto trans additive - Trans-X is usually recommended. It helps with 'delayed engagement' but may be helpful for other issues.

has the car ever had the trans or rear diff swapped?

you won't need any help with the brakes - search, read, watch a video or 2. The minimum thickness is marked on the rotors - keep you OEM rotors if they are in spec. Centric makes good stuff if you need rotors and Centric PosiQuiet Ceramic pads will work well for you. Cheaper than OEM and as good, maybe very slightly better. Probably ANY name-brand ceramic pad will work.

GL-5 goes in the rear diff. Always remove the fill plug first. You may need a cheater pipe on a 1/2" breaker bar. I had to use my floor jack to pop the plugs loose on the diff. I used one of these to help with filling;




the tires MUST be all 4 the same size/brand/model - and near each other in wear. u-joints and diffs CAN be bad and sometimes feel like torque bind. Brakes could bind too, causing drag.
 
#24 ·
Quick update -

Replaced the rear differential fluid in my car. I let all of the liquid out and it was pitch black... and there were tons of metal shavings in it too. I would bet it's only been changed once if at all (175k miles now).

I've decided I won't do the struts for a while because within the next couple weeks I'll be out of action. But I think today I'll add my transx additive... but first I need to figure out how to drain only a little bit of fluid since right now it's overfilled....
 
#25 ·
have to ask - you're checking the trans fluid while idling right?


anyway, you might be able to get a hand or drill-motor operated pump with tubing small enough to pull some fluid out the fill tube. Or several fills of a 'turkey baster' equipped with a long tube.
 
#27 ·
auto trans in many cars is checked while idling - the only fluid like that. On my wife's car, the level when off is , I dunno - maybe 2-1/2" above the actual level while idling.

also, when adding fluid, you need to sneak-up on the level 1/2 pint at a time. Those marks are a lot less than 1 qt apart like engine oil. And, I find I need to pull the stick and wait 2 minutes to get a good reading because it takes a while for fluid in the tube to run back down.
 
#28 ·
Ditto

I have a " new to me" 2007 Outback with 138,000 miles. When making tight turns in a parking lot, I had the car "grab" at the road...not sure how else to explain it. It was very sporadic. I had the dealership change the front and rear differential fluid and all is well on that front. I have another problem as well. Multiple times I have been driving and it feels like I got hit from behind. I've read other posts stating the transmission needs flushed...getting that done this week.
 
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