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08 OB 3.0R - Lane Wandering

6K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  Duncan Heinz 
#1 ·
So after driving through crosswinds at 70-75 mph I found this thing wander like crazy. There was crosswind but still found it scary sometimes. After a while I noticed that it will still wander even with little or no crosswind. I browsed threads regarding this and it seems like an issue with these models. I'd like to get this fixed soon as this is the wife's car and she is a novice driver. The car has brand new Conti DWS tires. Things that I am looking forward to

1)Alignment - 0.0 toe all around. But I'd appreciate some good specs if any of you have faced and cured the issue.
2)RSB - This will have to wait until spring, but is this really a cure?
 
#2 ·
So wait - you have new conti's - but didn't have them aligned? If that's so...

1. GET AN ALIGNMENT. ASAP. If the tires were just mounted and you didn't have front and back aligned get that. ASAP.
2. Wandering - stiffer sway bars will reduce body roll. Do front and back. Whiteline 22F/20R with avo adjustable endlinks. You will need to make sure the sway bars have lateral locks front and back to keep the bar solidly placed.

OB's have body roll as they are naturally higher. And yes going 75 around corners will induce body roll. A 3800 lb. whale will roll at that speed. It's not bad. Before you go modifying your wife's car - get the alignment and have her drive it if it is truly her car. She may not have your driving habits. Modifying and saying there you go babe may cause - bad things. I speak from experience.
 
#4 ·
1.I recently got an alignment done with the old tires. I fail to see why you need an alignment if your previous tires worn evenly. In my case, they were mostly new and I switched them because they have low rolling resistance and fuel efficient with no grip. DWS are great all seasons and infact the only true all-seasons. I will perform one anyways to rule out the scenarios. Do you have good spec in mind? I was thinking -1.0 camber all around with 0.0 toe

2. I was thinking of just a STi 19mm RSB to see if that will improve. What is the stock size? 16mm?
 
#3 ·
Bad front lower control arm bushings can also cause imprecise tracking. I would want to know my suspension components are in good shape. Depends how many miles on the car, and its history.

Here is one of my Lower control arm bushing at 175k miles. the car had a front end jiggle, and like yours, it wanted to wander.

required replacing both arms:


(I bought the car 5k miles ago). So far Ive replaced shocks, rear control arms, and added the Whiteline rear camber adjusters, to stabilize how the car drives.

Ive also got matched tires at factory cold pressure of 32f 30r (overinflating causes more wandering)
 
#7 ·
it will still wander even with little or no crosswind
Seek confirmation from a professional to determine what to throw money at:
1. Alignment
2. tire pressure
3. verify condition of rubber suspension parts including on control arms, lateral links and sway bar drop links, both front and rear

I dont see how a stiffer sway bar would be the fix for wandering. (sway bars control body roll, not tracking)

I dont see how changing only rear shocks would be the fix for wandering. (shocks control bouncing up and down, not tracking)
 
#11 · (Edited)
...and 0.0 toe all around is not actually good for the gen 3 outback. You want some negative toe in the back.

Here is my alignment that I am in love with. You'll see the negative toe is in the middle of the "best" range. This is with ~160lbs in the back and full gas, which is widely recommended because weight makes the car go positive in the rear and it gets squirmy.


476409
 
#13 ·
...and 0.0 toe all around is not actually good for the gen 3 outback. You want some negative toe in the back.

Here is my alignment that I am in love with. You'll see the negative toe is in the middle of the "best" range. This is with ~160lbs in the back and full gas, which is widely recommended because weight makes the car go positive in the rear and it gets squirmy.
I will try to get your specs and see if it will help. Thanks for sharing!
 
#12 ·
Thanks everyone... so I am going to take a step by step approach here

--Tire pressure is good. 33/32 psi F/R cold
-- Check alignment. I usually get the Firestone lifetime alignment because I can go back in anytime. I will post the specs on here.
-- Test drive the car and check for wandering issues. I will check for suspension bits and bushings after this.
-- I agree with the fact that a sway bar will have little to do with wandering so that will be my last resort. But if I upgrade the suspension to some KYB Excel Gs I will definitely get sway bars.
 
#19 ·
--Tire pressure is good. 33/32 psi F/R cold
I do not know what your door sticker says, but my 06 OBW with 225x55x17 tires and H6 motor calls for 32f 30r



there is a possibility that your present tire pressure difference, front to rear is too small. Try a larger difference in pressure, for example 34f 30r, to exaggerate the change. You may find your tracking stability changes favorably.

You could also try equal pressures front and rear, to see if it makes your tracking worse. Be careful with that option, it might be scary, too much oversteer maybe?..

Im only suggesting these extremes, +0 and +4, to help you notice the change. I would still try to stick to whatever your doorsticker actually says, for your tire size.

fwiw, I don't know how the front rear pressure difference affects oversteer, and it will be different depending on the drivetrain. I believe our H6 defaults to a 45%front 55% rear traction distribution under normal traction. Whereas some other motors and transmissions default to a 90% front, 10% rear traction distribution. So inflation differences front to rear may affect different drivetrains differently.

That is why I say experiment on the same roadway, using a couple different inflation spreads, to fine tune your steering response.

I look forward to your results :)
 
#15 · (Edited)
They used the wrong car! Look at the top! It say 2010-2011 Outback. Your car now is actually out of spec for the 2007-2009 specs! Go back with a full tank of gas and some weight in the cargo area and tell them to do it over! You want negative toe in the rear and 0.0 in the front. Now, after the alignment, you have positive toe in the rear. You may just want to get your money back and find a better shop. It took me a long time to find a good alignment shop, and once you find a good shop you can take your WRX there and tune that thing to handle like it's on rails.

Tell them you want all tires to be at negative camber, the rear tires to be in the middle of the spec for negative toe, and the front tires to have absolute zero toe, also the front tires should be symmetrical with each other, and the rear tires should be symmetrical with each other. That means that if one tire is negative 0.5 degree of camber the tire on the other side should be **** close to that. Those are the things you need....and for them to use the right measurement reference of a 2008-2009 Outback. Do not leave with anything other than perfect. Your alignment right now is bad. The rear tires don't match each other. You have positive toe in the rear. The front tire have positive camber, which really blows. Positive camber is awful. Be very specific with your request, to let it be known you want it right, and will not settle for an "in-spec" "green" alignment. If they fight, get a manager, let them know they didn't use the right reference year of the Outback, get your money back, and go somewhere else.

If you do go somewhere else, make sure they agree to your requests: Negative camber on all 4 corners, front tire specs match each other (if one tire is -1deg of camber, the other tire is too), rear tire specs match each other, and rear toe is negative.

Re-look at my sheet and asks us anything you need for more clarity. Note how my front tires are the same. Note how my rears are basically the same. Note my rear toe is negative. Note my front tires are in the red for negative camber, but that's exactly what I asked for and they obliged. Your rear negative camber on the passenger side can not be adjusted (just how these cars are), but being that it is at -1deg implies that something is bent, and that doesn't necessarily mean something needs to be replaced, but something is bent. Do you know of hitting a curb or big pothole?
 
#17 ·
@fnlyfnd Thanks for your inputs. I did notice the 2010-2011 MY there. I thought they wouldn't have changed much in spec so it did not concern me much. I also saw the +ve camber in there. I am not sure of the spec on OBs and I recently got this car so not sure of anything bent by previous owner.

From what I know, +ve for toe is "toe-in" and not "toe-out" I asked a bit of rear toe-in because it will help in straight line stability. We barely put any weight in the rear ( other than ocassional grocery stuff). I will have to pull the spec that you have and ask them to get close to that.I got the life-time alignment, so I can take it back when I want -

Camber Front -> -0.6
Camber Rear -> Non adjustable

Toe Front -> 0.0
Toe Rear -> -0.08

As for my WRX, I give them the exact spec ( -1.2 camber front. rear is not adjustable, 0.0 toe all around) so far it has worked for me.
 
#18 ·
Remember, I put around 160lbs of weight in the back of my car which causes the rear toe to push out. If you don't have any weight in the back, just go in with a full gas tank. and ask them to try to get your toe to the middle of the green. This way if you do have weight back there, or less gas and the road conditions get bad you'll still be alright. Your WRX specs are great, I used to run that too!

It's funny that both of are "before" measurements were way out of whack for the rear toe
 
#22 ·
As I said, alignment is everything with these outbacks. I blatantly request the town fair near me to leave all the tires and other weight I leave in the car when the do the alignment. The last time they did it without any weight everything felt off.

Negative camber in the front is great, even some positive caster is wonderful. I had the PSRS for awhile and my outback turned sharper and felt far more responsive. Course you felt every bump through the steering column. But the turning my god man....the turning was marvelous.

I wonder if you used the rallitek sway bar kit if your car would feel more stable - I thought whiteline would fit but I would confirm. The rallitek kit was a 21F/19R which was a decent upgrade. Good luck.
 
#24 ·
imo, weight does change rear alignment, jury still out how much. Watch for traildogck's follow up in the Suspension FAQ, he is testing the effect on his alignment with and without 200 lbs cargo.

There is also discussion in the ghostwalking thread.

imo, you should get an alignment after installing whiteline rear camber adjusters.

As far as load in the trunk, I get aligned loaded the way I normally travel for majority of my miles, which happens to be about 50 pounds of camping gear.

Lastly the amount of weight in the back affects tire pressure. VW calls for 35 psi in the rear, if carrying 200lbs cargo. You can see how that weight at 30psi might squish the tires a bit, possibly endangering driving stability.. more on that here and in the pages that follow.
 
#27 ·
correct
Even if the car gets aligned correctly, if there is slop in the bushings, when you actually drive, the alignment changes and the car wanders or ghost walks.

Slop in the suspension bushings, lets the wheels wobble out of alignment, and this makes the tracking loose.

I just changed my front lower control arms due to blown bushings. Its amazing how much easier it is to hold a line now. I can even let go of the wheel and it keeps tracking.

small road irregularities no longer force my steering to change direction, and I dont have to grip the steering wheel as hard, to keep the car pointed where I want to be going.

there are some typical urban myths about how to make a car handle better, goes like this

1. change the springs, stiffer, and or shorter
2. get stiffer shocks in the rear
3. get a stiffer sway bar

What I think is more on track towards a goal of making the car drive as when new

1. Leave the springs alone. There is nothing wrong with them. Dont lower the car, dont make it jarring to ride in.
2. Get 4 brand new shocks. I like the stock ones. Others like the stiff ones. whatever you do, get all 4, not just 2.. I mean, make a commitment to the whole car, so it works together
3. Install Whiteline campber adjuster, and Replace front and rear control arm bushings (or the whole arm if you dont do your own work) until the car is tight, does not jiggle side to side front nor rear, and tracks even with hands off the steering wheel.
4. Get a lifetime alignment.
5. Any time you change anything, sway bar, spring, shock, suspension arms, or even every time you change oil and rotate tires, recheck the alignment.

sway bars shove the car sideways. That is not going to help if there is slop in the suspension linkage bushings. Shoving the car sideways, fully loaded, underinflated, on slick surfaces is dangerous.

thats why traildogck, who imo is a guru here and you should listen to what he says, said a swaybar would increase the handling dangers of worn bushings

in my experience, sloppy bushings created sideways hop in the rear, sideways jiggle both front and rear, and made holding a line more effort than it should be. Now with new control arm bushings, the car is much more fun and relaxing to drive. It moves more as one unibody unit, instead of a bunch of independent parts bouncing and jiggling around.

shocking but true,
good bushes are more important than how stiff your bar is
I drove around with my car weighted for about 4 days...now with 200lbs in the car...all on back...I wanted the WL RSB back there...I have become accustomed to whipping her a bit harder in corners...so with the weight...the stock bar was struggling to give me the same flat feel.
Really appreciate your posts
Did you add 4 psi to your rear tires to help reduce side roll?:)

If the tires are squished, more in the back than in the front, bad things can happen in a turn, in ways that stiffer bars accentuate.

btw,
how much did the alignment change when you took the 200 lbs of weight out?
post your alignments, and teach me what you see please
 
#26 ·
If there are compromised components or bushings...that larger RSB is going to generate larger forces...which are still affecting loose bushings. I run my stock sway bars on my car most of the time.

I drove around with my car weighted for about 4 days...now with 200lbs in the car...all on back...I wanted the WL RSB back there...I have become accustomed to whipping her a bit harder in corners...so with the weight...the stock bar was struggling to give me the same flat feel.
 
#29 ·
So after alignment I still did not get negative camber because they told it would be out of spec. I did not have time to get it re-aligned. So I will go later.Check the attachment. There is some negative toe or toe out done .This is with a full tank of gas. That rear negative camber is concerning that something is bent. I will get to it next spring.
 

Attachments

#30 ·
I doubt somethings is bent. I bet it is a bushing that is tearing and the car can't be brought in to a good alignment. The right rear camber could be brought back in, but then the negative toe would go uneven.

This is just the design flaws that plague this car. 1 adjustment...if you want the toe good...you are left with camber...where the camber it is left. A second independent adjustment...critical and then...even if a bushing or bent link were present...you could still get the car dialed.

Also, if the car is weighted...a little neg camber is normal and good...And, even without...don't be afraid if neg camber up to -1.5...not gonna wear your tires. But the left being + and the right be - all out of balance...the car mat have even toe, but it is pushing to left in the rear from the camber being out.
 
#32 ·
I thought I would update this after 4 years in case anyone is searching and reading this.

The car still tracks straight and true and has no issues with wandering. I did replace the control arms, bushings, ball joints, and all 4 struts/springs/mounts before the alignment that was posted back in 2015. So - Everything is still all good. Just make sure to replace the suspension components (if needed) before getting an alignment if you are having wandering issues.
 
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