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2005-2009 Ghostwalking/abnormal winter handling fixes

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#1 ·
2005-2009 Outback Ghostwalking/abnormal winter handling fixes

Potential solutions for 2005-2009 USA Outback ghostwalking

This thread is only intended to discuss potential solutions to the “ghostwalking” or abnormal handling symptoms described in the “dangerous on ice” thread. These symptoms are believed to be caused by a chassis and/or drivetrain issue. Topics to avoid in this thread are tire choice, tire tread depth, and driver error. While tires and driver error can certainly exacerbate shortcomings in any chassis, that line of discussion is not the goal here.


Reference links

To report a safety issue to the National Highway Traffic Saftey Administration
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/



Summary of the ghostwalking symptoms:
In winter driving conditions and especially on ice, some USA 2005-2009 Outbacks appear to have a chassis tuning issue where the rear suspension oscillates in such a way to cause rear-steer. This is not fishtailing due to using too much gas, lifting off the gas mid-corner, or hitting the brakes too abruptly. This can occur during straight line driving at moderate speeds. Road feel and handling confidence is totally lost when this occurs. The symptoms are not 100% reproducible and Subaru has not acknowledged that there is any problem. Subaru did revise the rear wheel alignment specifications for these cars in 2007 due to rear tire wear complaints. The change to alignment spec tightens the tolerance for rear toe.

Ghostwalking does not seem to affect European/Austrailian/Japanense spec Outbacks, nor does it affect the Legacy cars. The USA Outback is raised an additional inch compared to Outbacks sold in other regions and does not include a load-dependent self-leveling system. It is plausible that the added height and lack of self-leveling feature compromises the suspension geometry and driving dynamics. More study is required.

Because ghostwalking is not 100% reproducible, it is difficult to pinpoint a fix. Through experimentation, several board members have come up with solutions:




Recommend skipping straight to solution #2
Solution #1: 4-wheel alignment with updated OEM specs per Technical Service Bulletin: “05-36-07 JAN 07 Tires/Alignment - Tire Pressure/Rear Wheel Toe-In Specs”. The updated Subaru specs have a tighter specification for rear toe angle. Your car may already be aligned to this spec.
  • Cost $50-$100


Solution #2: 4-wheel alignment with updated OEM specs and 100-300 pounds of cargo in the rear. By adding cargo weight during the alignment process, you simulate “real-world” conditions and the tires should point straighter when the car is loaded down. This is a technique that racing teams use - they align the car with the driver in the seat because the driver’s weight can influence all aspects of handling and tuning.
  • Cost $50-$100


Solution #3: Replace worn rear dampers. The 2005-2009 chassis dampers (struts/shocks) are notorious for premature wear. The rear end is the worst with a floatly/bouncy feeling after only a few years of use. The fix is to replace the rear shocks with a more robust aftermarket brand like KYB Excel-G/GR-2. Using the 2003-2004 chassis rear KYB shocks is a popular option because they stiffen the rear end considerably and are 100% compatible with the 2005-2009 cars. See the main suspension FAQ thread for more info.
  • Cost $100-125 in parts for rear dampers and 1-2 hours labor
  • Required: Add cost of an alignment $50-$100
  • Optional: Add cost of front dampers $125 and additional 1-2 hours labor
  • www.ajusa.com
  • www.justsuspension.com


Solution #4: Increase rear spring rate with Rallitek Overload springs. By increasing the rear spring stiffness, the rear suspension geometry, specifically the toe-angle, will change less when going over bumps and cornering. This should help reduce any rear-steer effects. By changing the springs, the overall handling balance of the car will change towards oversteer. Since the Outback chassis is tuned with understeer from the factory, this will actually lead to a more neutral-handling car. But in emergency stopping situations, it may be less safe for under-skilled drivers.
  • Cost $150 in parts and 1.5-2 hours labor
  • Required: Add cost of an alignment $50-$100
  • RallITEK.com


Solution #5: Whiteline rear camber adjusting bushings/eccentric bolts. The Outback chassis with the multi-link rear suspension only comes with one rear-toe adjustment on the in-board rear-most lateral link. A problem with this design is that every time you change toe, you also change the camber. So while the toe-angle may be within spec, it is easy to have a camber angle that is mismatched side-to-side or too far away from 0°. Because the multi-link suspension is designed to gain negative camber during compression (outside tire gains camber during cornering), you don't need a lot of static negative camber to get good handling. In fact, a lot of static negative camber can compromise braking and stablity when travelling straight with this type of suspension design. So, the Whiteline KCA399 kit adds an adjuster-bolt and matching polyurethane bushing to the outboard upper-middle lateral link to allow the camber to be tuned in addition to toe. The Whiteline kit replaces an OEM rubber bushing which may deteriorate with age. In extreme cold, it is possible that the OEM bushings contract or change stiffness enough to alter handling. In many industrial applications, polyurethane performs better than rubber in lower temperatures so it is plausible that a poly bushing might hold the alignment better.
 
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#2 ·
Thanks for the excellent write up Phat, I think your solutions are all reasonable and have a history of success by the members of sob.org and legacygt.com.

On a personal note, I'm now looking into making some hardware changes to improve the somewhat dangerous under-dampened rear suspension. It will be interesting to see if the changes have any improvement on the rear end wiggle we all know and love. Sarcasm aside, great job!
 
#3 ·
This thread has been pinned.
 
#6 ·
Solution #1: 4-wheel alignment with updated OEM specs per Technical Service Bulletin: “05-36-07 JAN 07 Tires/Alignment - Tire Pressure/Rear Wheel Toe-In Specs”. The updated Subaru specs have a tighter specification for rear toe angle. Your car may already be aligned to this spec.
  • Cost $50-$100

Solution #2: 4-wheel alignment with updated OEM specs and 100-300 pounds of cargo in the rear. By adding cargo weight during the alignment process, you simulate “real-world” conditions and the tires should point straighter when the car is loaded down. This is a technique that racing teams use - they align the car with the driver in the car because the driver’s weight can influence all aspects of handling and tuning.
  • Cost $50-$100
It seems implicit here already, but just in case it's not 100% clear, anybody having an alignment done should skip #1 and go straight to #2.

My sample of one:
I just had a couple alignments done within a couple months, after having some suspension work done.
Without changing anything else in the rear except adding 200lbs. ballast, my rear toe went from well within spec to way out of spec.
This seems to be the nature of the Outback's suspension geometry: more weight means more (positive) toe.

YMMV,

Bimmer
 
#11 ·
Without changing anything else in the rear except adding 200lbs. ballast, my rear toe went from well within spec to way out of spec.
This seems to be the nature of the Outback's suspension geometry: more weight means more (positive) toe.

YMMV,

Bimmer
Bimmer,

So even with the RalliTek springs 200 lbs of ballast makes a big difference? Would you be willing to measure the difference in wheel center to fender lip w/ and w/o the extra load? I was hoping 200 lbs wouldn't make a signifigant difference with the RalliTek springs...
 
#8 ·
ok just spent 2-3 hours reading

Just to clear something up

I am looking to help prevent a accident in the 06 by replacing things NOW before there is a major issue.

I am looking to replace the REAR struts with 00-04 ones and REPLACE the rear springs with the rallitak ones.

then get a allightment done with some weight in it.


By doing BOTH the struts and springs will it be to much ?? im not a big fan of having a "soft" ride but dont want it to feel like a tank either
 
#9 ·
Not too much. The 04 KYB dampers with Rallitek springs + modified alignment would be a GREAT combination. Your car will probably ride more comfortably and be easier to drive overall compared to the worn out OEM dampers.

I ended up doing 05 KYB + Rallitek + modified alignment with 150 pounds of cargo. Rides great! I would have done the 04 KYBs had I known they were better at the time I ordered the parts.
 
#13 ·
so the 04 struts will be a direct5 drop in without any real priblems :)
Yes.

To address you concerns for harshness:

From the many, many, many posts about the rear shocks, I think the end consensus was that the 05 shocks are slightly softer than the 04s. You may want to opt for the 05's. I think phatVW tried them both out, or someone... I forget. too many posts.

In my opinion, the springs are well worth it. I went from a Buick type ride to something more similar to a Volvo. Not too cushy, not too soft. My wife's Acura TSX is still harsher than the OB.

I'm not sure what you're financial status is, but you can always try them out, and if you don't like it, revert to the stock springs and sell the Heavy Duties. I'm sure you will find a taker on the forums.
 
#15 ·
me neither, but someone else might...
 
#19 ·
Aside from the new Jan '07 alignment specs to deal with an extraneous issue, there are several scenarios shaping up amongst users to solve the ghostwalking problem:
1) alignment to '07 specs but with [at least] 200 lbs ballast,
2) replacement of springs,
3) replacement of struts/shocks,
4) replacement of springs and struts/shocks,
5) replacement of springs, struts/shocks, and installation of rear camber kit, and
6) installation of rear camber kit only.

DAFTEK in post #1279 of the previous thread indicated that he had done many suspension mods but it was not until the rear camber kit was installed that he felt the ghostwalking problem was resolved.

Bimmer:
Assuming that you have replaced springs and struts/shocks, did your fix eliminate a ghostwalking problem on ice on your vehicle?

It would be good to have, if possible, the attempted fixes being discussed related back to the main issue.

Cheers.
 
#20 ·
Bimmer:
Assuming that you have replaced springs and struts/shocks, did your fix eliminate a ghostwalking problem on ice on your vehicle?
No.

Just to be clear, I never experienced ghost-walking. I wasn't worried about ghost walking. I only drove on snow and ice once or twice.

FWIW, I think improving the rear suspension is worth doing without ever driving on ice.

The handling benefits, reduced tire wear, and dry/wet road safety/performance are well worth the time and effort and money I've put into this.

Bimmer
 
#22 ·
FWIW, I did the rear alignment to zero toe with 200lbs of water in the back, and since then I have had multiple trips back and forth to the mountains loaded with gear on roads so slick you could barely walk on them. And this is with the stock all-season tires.

No issues with GW, and from what I've read those are the absolutely ideal conditions for it to occur. Not that I had any GW before, but just wanted to submit a data point.
 
#24 ·
asd wrote:
FWIW, I did the rear alignment to zero toe with 200lbs of water in the back, and since then I have had multiple trips back and forth to the mountains loaded with gear on roads so slick you could barely walk on them. And this is with the stock all-season tires.

No issues with GW, and from what I've read those are the absolutely ideal conditions for it to occur. Not that I had any GW before, but just wanted to submit a data point.
Potentially a valuable data point, asd. Those conditions indeed are ideal ghostwalking conditions. Is your vehicle a 2005 - 2009 Outback?

If it is, and you've not had any ghostwalking issues (under the same conditions, I assume) before, it raises the question as to why some '05 - '09s have the problem and some do not. Or is my assumption incorrect?

Thanks Bimmer for clarifying whether your discussion was aimed at the ghostwalking problem or a personal handling preference.

Cheers.
 
#25 ·
Another non-ghostwalker here. Closest I've had to that effect was when new from the dealer, with lots of understeer, and yet with the feeling it was going to swap ends when pushed in corners, in the dry, unladen.
Turns out the dealer had higher pressures in the rear. Fixed that, and went after the understeer, first with LGT rear bar (noticeable improvement), then with JDM 20mm hollow. Also maxed front camber & set toe at 0.05 deg in al around, no load. And added GY TT tires. Understeer down to acceptable levels.

Directional stability is still not that great, at highway speed. Looking at adding front caster, but rear still needs work. At 80 000, shocks need replacement.
 
#26 ·
My experience was in the rain with 500lbs of crap in the back. This was on the old stock rear shocks. It started pouring and next thing I know in a straight line the back starts getting twitchy going back and forth like it wants to swing out. It was made much worse by gusty wind. I stopped at a gas station and could see a huge difference in toe front to back. I could also see where the tires were getting worn a bit from the excessive toe. ie scarring from the road at a slightly different angle from the tire tread. An alignment with weight and the KYBs in back seem to have fixed it. I had similar conditions a week ago and no twitchiness in back.

In 3 weeks I'll be testing it out in some interesting conditions with a 3k lbs trailer being towed...
 
#27 ·
Another option that I know won't work for everyone is to purchase a Legacy. I owned a 2005 Outback Sedan that was a GW canadidate (I made it better with tires, alignment and upgrade rear swaybar, but I never trusted the car). I sold the car last spring and purchased a 2009 Subaru Legacy SE. Now this is what driving a Subaru in the winter is all about!!! This weekend beens the perfect weekend for black ice, snow and blowing snow, along with below zero temps. Was out yesterday and today, with no issues at all. Going down the highway when everyone was going 45, I had no issue passing and get around other cars (don't like driving in a pack when its slippery out). This car is stable and can be driven with confidence. In my 2005 Outback it would have been two hands on the wheel and watch everyone pass me. I never would let my Wife or Daughters drive the 2005 Outback when conditions were like they are this weekend. With the Legacy I have no concerns at all in how the car handles.. I know its not a wagon or an Outback but for me it made sense having a car that was secure and stable in the Western MI winters.
 
#28 ·
bsevic wrote:
Another option that I know won't work for everyone is to purchase a Legacy.
That's correct. The regular Legacy platform is not the one which Subaru compromised in 2005 - 2009. Although I did not know that the Legacy Outback was still offered in a sedan in 2005. Had you even replaced your '05 Outback sedan with a regular '05 Legacy sedan or wagon, you likely would have been as happy as you are now with your '09 Legacy sedan. For those though who shelled-out $35,000 for a new '05 Outback, the hit in depreciation is huge, and the angst understandably very disconcerting. There is a vast difference between what such buyers expected from Subaru and what they actually got. There's nothing worse than driving with passengers or cargo on ice in what feels like a float plane with no controls. Glad to hear your driving experience is now feeling safe and as it should be.

What can be confusing is that Subaru also put the "Outback" nameplate on the Impreza for a period of time. The ghostwalking problem though occurs on the 2005 - 2009 Legacy Outback which have the raised suspension compared to the regular 2005 - 2009 Legacy which does not.

Cheers.
 
#29 ·
Yea...which leads to another option. It's more expensive than the others but will give better results IMO.

Swap to legacy KYB struts and get springs and top hats. It is more expensive because you will need to replace all 4 struts/springs/top hats. You will lose the ride height, but it will definitely get rid of the ghostwalking issues and give you a much better handling car. Obviously it is not for everyone, but is definitely another option. It is especially a good option if your current suspension is worn as it will cost no more than completely overhauling your current suspension.
 
#30 ·
Megan Racing also makes Coilover suspension for the Outback which lowers closer to LGT spec. Though I've read mixed reviews about that brand.

I wonder if the 2000-2004 Outbacks and Baja trucks with jacked up aftermarket suspensions would have the GW issue too? The multi-link system looks very similar across all these model years, so if its just because the 2005 Outback is jacked up from the factory, you'd figure that all these folks modifying their cars would have similar issues.
 
#32 ·
Hmm that got me thinking. Is this another potential candidate to fix the GW issue?

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthre...djustable-camber-toe-link-install-141403.html

In theory, you could alter the length of the upper-middle and rear-toe lateral links to totally change the dynamics of the suspension geometry. I think these are mainly designed for lowered cars where you cannot achieve proper camber and toe settings because the OEM adjuster is already maxed out. So I'm not sure it would help the Outback situation much. But you do get those fancy bright yellow polyurethane bushings.
 
#34 ·
Yes! This needs to be reported!

Having just suffered (2/21/11) through major and terrifying "ghost walking" during a lovely Minnesota winter drive with my family through icy conditions, and having jumped on this forum and learned about the longstanding nature of this particular problem, I have already reported the incident to the NHTSA website. It all can be done online. If you have experienced this, report it. You may save a life. This is as bad as the Toyota accelleration issue, in my opinion.

Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)
U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT)
 
#35 ·
I have already submitted my complaint about the ghostwalking to NHTSA using the online complaint process. At this point in time, there is only one other complaint about this problem registered. For crying out loud, this is a serious deal and from the look of things Subaru is not taking it seriously. If you have experienced this problem, report it. Today.
 
#37 ·
I haven't experienced ghostwalking in our 07 Outback, even on the crappy RE92s.

Unfortunately, the chances of the NHTSA doing anything about this problem very very low. The reason being the potential issue isn't happening during normal driving conditions, car load also appears to be a potential factor, as well as speed. The NHSTA is going to look at these compliants of "I was driving 45mph in icy conditions with 500lbs in the back and the car started oversteering uncontrollably." Chances are high that their reaction will be:

1) They're driving way too fast for conditions
2) They're hitting black ice
3) The drivers should be aware that loading up a car with weight results in different handling dynamics
4) Worn tires could be a factor

Now if this problem was happening in the rain, then I'd bet they'd be far more responsive. Secondly, this potential issue isn't easily repeatable. Numerous people have reported the problem popping up randomly. The issue has to be somewhat repeatable for the agency to say it's a real problem. Regardless, if your car does exhibit ghostwalking, then why not report it?
 
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#36 ·
Minndvr wrote: I have already submitted my complaint about the ghostwalking to NHTSA using the online complaint process. At this point in time, there is only one other complaint about this problem registered.
I registered a complaint with NHTSA last year and without going back to the previous thread and doing any kind of count, I would say there should be MUCH more than one other complaint registered. I couldn't agree more -- the problem is extremely serious.
 
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