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Best strategy for replacing a coolant hose

8K views 28 replies 5 participants last post by  Kamen 
#1 ·
If anyone knows the name of this little elbow hose, please, let me know so that I can refer to it by name. Anyway, it is pictured here, right behind the oil pan, next to the oil-level pipe:



It seems like it is leaking from one or both sides, so probably the best next step would be to replace it and use good hose clamps to avoid the leak. The question is: what's the best way to replace it, without having to drain all the coolant. The reason I want to avoid that is because it was replaced recently when the dealership rebuilt the engine and I'd like to avoid the time and expense of needlessly doing it again. I'm thinking something on the line of clamping each side of the old hose, cutting it in half and then quickly replacing each side with the new hose. I'll obviously loose a bit of coolant, and probably spray myself and around the container I'd put underneath, but it's better than doing it all from scratch. Also, if I do that, would I need to go through the air-bleeding procedure outlined in the service manual for when the entire coolant is replaced? Anything else I need to think about?

Kamen
 
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#2 ·
I wouldn't waste time with a short cut. The aluminum nipple is probably pitted and needs to be cleaned properly for a good seal. Also, the thermostat gasket may be leaking too. Hard too tell with all that corrosion and crystallized glycol. I would do a proper job of it and drain the coolant so you can get in there and fix it once. Or you can try a short-cut and end up doing it twice.

I drain it by placing a container under that area and pulling the hose off the rad and let it drain. I usually put a "pig" funnel under there to direct the coolant flow. Get a new hose and clamps and thermostat gasket (and thermostat if it's original). Clean all the parts thoroughly and face all mating surfaces. Use some gasket sealant (like Permatex Form-A-Gasket No 2) on the nipple if it's pitted under the hose to help get a good seal.

Save the coolant and re-use if you like. Bleeding isn't that difficult.
 
#3 ·
That seems reasonable.


Kamen
 
#4 ·
One more thing. I just looked at the service bill from the dealership when they did the engine rebuild, 13K miles ago. They claim they replaced the water pump (and I remember asking them to do it). I bet if I called them, they wouldn't remember anything; the question is: would they replace the water pump but not the thermostat? I wonder if they'd sell me just the thermostat gasket; I can always come back and replace the thermostat.


Kamen
 
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#13 ·
One more thing. I just looked at the service bill from the dealership when they did the engine rebuild, 13K miles ago. They claim they replaced the water pump (and I remember asking them to do it). I bet if I called them, they wouldn't remember anything; the question is: would they replace the water pump but not the thermostat? I wonder if they'd sell me just the thermostat gasket; I can always come back and replace the thermostat.

Kamen
I just got an answer to that question (called the dealership). They said they would not replace that without the customer specifically asking for it!:surprise: It's a $35 item (the thermostat, or just $5 for the gasket), during a $5000 repair, and they wouldn't even suggest it to me?! They should do it for free, if they were decent.


On a separate note, I now realize which hose shmn is referring to and I don't think this is it. This one is about 3/4" OD, and I think the one he's referring to is more like a 1.5". I'll need to take a look in there again: I was just hoping to be able to get all parts and save myself another lift/remove skidplate/ etc., exercise. I'm getting old for this...


Kamen
 
#5 ·
Oh, wait - is that hose where the thermostat is? I thought the latter is on the front of the engine (at least it's there on EJ22 engines)? I took this picture over a year ago and I can't quite remember what was where.

Kamen
 
#6 ·
I assumed EJ25 and I see I'm wrong. That location looks like driver's side front of engine and that hose connects the radiator to the block through a nipple behind which is the thermostat on an EJ25. May be different on the EJ22 (which I'm not familiar with). Sorry for the confusion.

But I still say to the job properly, coolant should be drained for the other reasons I stated above.
 
#7 ·
I am the one who confused you - the engine in question is indeed an EJ255; I was just wondering if it is different from the EJ22, which is what I had on my two Legacy Ls (as seen on my signature) and with which I am very familiar. I got the OBXT recently (and I'm already regretting it...)


Kamen
 
#8 ·
Move the fixed tension hose clamp over and use a worm style one you buy at the autoparts store. You can unthread the hose clamp and wrap it around without remove the hose.

Those fixed tension clamps do not hold up over multiple uses and tend to leak when used again. May have been removed when the engine was rebuilt. I would try another hose clamp before doing anything else. If you are feeling extra energetic, get a coolant pressure pump and pressurize the system. You will find all of your leaks very quickly. Great way to identify loose hose clamps.
 
#10 ·
That was my fist thought. Especially since the leak has been like a half-pint over three years. I will eventually fix it, though. My main concern for postponing the fix is if the leak were not just from the hose; but, I guess, this would also help diagnose that.


Kamen
 
#11 ·
As I mentioned above, the block has 13K miles and it is protected by a skidplate. I also tend to degrease my engines periodically, so even my 300K-mile EJ22 was rather clean-looking. Helped selling it, too...:grin2:
Kamen
 
#14 ·
Some answers...

The hose turned out to be the water pump-to-oil cooler pipe connector, Subaru part #807611031, or H611031 on this diagram:





You can see the whole picture here:







I was able to recover almost all existing coolant (in clean containers) and only had to add less than a pint of new Supercoolant.

The trouble though: that is not the only source of the leak!

First, the other end of the hose goes to an outlet off of the water pump that is not shown on any of the diagrams in the service manual. It is on the opposite side of the two outlets that are shown on the diagram and you can see it on this picture:



What troubles me is that on the service report it clearly states that the water pump was replaced during the engine rebuild and that was only 12K miles ago! Does it look to you like this has only 12K on it? Here is a close-up:



That's either the old water pump or that Subaru Supercoolant is more corrosive than Flint water! Anyway, I cleaned it up as much as I could (I hate those super-cramped spaces!) and put the new hose on it:



Then I started the air-bleeding procedure and after only one heat cycle, it is apparent that the leak is elsewhere (there might have originally been some around the hose, too, but that is a moot point since there aren't any now):



It seems like it is coming from between the water pump body and the block. I haven't replaced the water pump on the EJ255, and I don't actually remember how it was on the EJ22, but is that likely? Does it use a gasket or sealant at that spot?

Man, I'm so angry! I have the most-reputable Subaru dealership in the area do the engine rebuild, I gave them the carte blanche to do what it takes to get it right, I approved any additional work they suggested (valve buckets, water pump) and now it's leaking! Do I have to do all my work? I'm getting old for this rubbish. And I hate fluid leaks!

Kamen
 
#15 ·
The more I look at it, the more it seems to me that this area (where the hose connects) is not part of the water pump. And that I won't really know where exactly the leak is coming from until I take the whole thing apart... :frown2:
Kamen
 
#17 ·
I can see where it's coming from; I just don't know what it is so I can fix it.


Kamen
 
#19 ·
The leak is above where the red arrows are pointing to (hidden from view).





I could trace a drop descending that way. The lower radiator hose is on the other side of the exhaust pipe, out of view on those images, in the direction that the arrow points:



It's a pain lifting the car, and taking off the skid plate, but I'll take some more pictures, probably this next weekend.

Kamen
 
#20 ·
I could also probably make an adapter (or buy one) and put some pressure to see the leak better, but I'm quite lost as to which part is which.


Kamen
 
#21 ·
The parts diagram above shows three 90-degree hoses with the same H611031 identifier. The attached sections from the FSM might help clarify where they go. The "2008 oil cooler document shows one hose that comes off a fitting on the oil cooler and immediately bends upward to a fitting above, which appears to be on the bottom of the engine. The other hose comes off a fitting on the other side of the cooler and attaches to a metal tube which, according to the FSM, is supported under the oil pump. The other end of the pipe, seems to go to the water pump. This is confirmed in the "2008 pump" document that shows the fitting for the water line from the oil cooler.

Incidentally, rockauto.com has some good photos of the 2008 turbo water pump showing the oil cooler water pipe fitting. Also, some of the photos show what looks like three gaskets, one for the t'stat, one large flat one that obviously fits between the back of the pump and the block, and a third which looks like an "L" shaped tool, but might be a gasket for another joint with the block. The photo with the two arrows showing where the leak seems to be might be that joint.

Just some thoughts . . . .
 

Attachments

#22 ·
Strange. The first document is nowhere to be found on my service manual (Legacy 2008). Is the Outback manual different than Legacy's? The second document is identical, but doesn't really show what exactly the hose attaches to. However, that is a moot point now since the first document finally shows the third "mystery" outlet from the water pump. So, the pitted pipe is part of the water pump and I need to know whether this suggests that the water pump was not replaced 12K miles ago, or that is normal wear.


As for where the remaining leak is coming from, it seems like it might be from behind the water pump housing. The manual shows the gasket only covers the upper portion of the pump, but it could be seeping from under there. It's looking more and more like the water pump needs to be removed.:frown2: So soon after all that work, and putting in a new timing belt, etc. I talked to the dealership last week and they were not responsive, but if I knew they did not replace the water pump it'd be a different conversation!


Kamen
 
#23 ·
The attachment identified as "2008 water pump" (my title) is from the "Mechanism and Function" section. This is a separate section of the FSM, not unlike the separate sections on Transmission, or Engine, or Chassis etc. It's not a repair section; rather, to a degree, it explains how things are set up and/or work. The attached pump page is in a sub-section on the cooling system of the H4DOTC engine.
 
#24 ·
Found it. Thank you, very much! :29:

Kamen
 
#25 ·
I realize I am not providing much information and asking too much, but if I could at least get an idea about whether I can go to the dealership and tell them there is a leak around the water pump, which they were supposed to have replaced only 12,000 miles ago, along with the short block and all that goes with it, and show them the picture of the pitted tube-ending:





and claim they did not replace it, I'd feel much more confident doing that.


I'm really concerned because I have this 2000-mile trip I have to do starting next week, and this leak could get much worse, if this is indeed the water pump leaking.


Kamen
 
#27 ·
That's why I'd really like to be able to make the determination of whether they replaced the water pump: if they did, it's extremely unlikely that it would be the shaft seal (not on a new pump), but it could always be that they simply didn't do a good job of sealing the gasket.

Kamen
 
#28 ·
Lifted it up earlier tonight (changed the front differential oil, too - some Mobil 1 75W-90), and it is definitely leaking. After 2-3 drive/heat cycles, you can see the result on the photos (there were a few drops on the skidplate, so not a whole lot):




I'm taking it to the dealer tomorrow. If they refuse to cover any sensible portion of the work under warranty, I'll take it as a sign that I shouldn't be letting them near my car, anyway.
I figure, one could clamp the timing belt to the camshaft sprockets before removing the tensioner to avoid having to reset the timing, and pull the water pump. Then, new gasket and rubber seal, and proper torqueing order, and it should do the job. But we'll see.
Kamen
 
#29 ·
In short: the dealership admitted that they did not replace the pump back when they did the engine rebuild, so they fixed it now for free!


I talked to the service manager and he said their next appointment was in over two weeks, but agreed to take it in today for inspection. He even drove it in to the garage himself as we finished the paperwork. A few hours later I got a call to go pick up the car and when I got there, he said he had the original service advisor take care of it, and after talking to the technicians, she determined that they, in fact, did not replace the pump. The reason given was confusion; apparently, they use something they call a "hybrid short block", which on N/A engines comes with the water pump attached, but not on the less-common turbo engines. Not sure how that explains is, because they still had to transfer the old pump, but maybe the service advisor was confused thinking that the pump was replaced while, in fact, it was not. Either way, once they had it up, they figured they might as well go for it, and did all the work (new pump, gasket and thermostat/gasket assembly, as well as coolant). Otherwise, they would have told me that it's the water pump and I could not have used the Outback for my trip, and I still would have had to bring the car for the service (given that they'd do it for free). Now it's all fixed, and I even have a few days before the trip to test it out.


So, they messed up and corrected their mistake. Good. Now I can be more confident going on that trip.


Kamen
 
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