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Battery died as soon as I pulled in my driveway? Strange electrical behavior...

4K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  Tennesseestorm 
#1 ·
I think my battery conked out literally after I shut my car (2000 Subaru Outback Limited wagon) down tonight coming home from work.


It started this morning on my way to work. My dash panel lights seemed a little dim, but I didn't think much of it. I drove onto work, about 30 miles away, the car did fine. The car set in the parking garage at work all day, (8am-5pm) and when I came out at 5:00 to leave, it started right up. I also stopped at the market on the way home, again it started right up. As I got closer to home, my lights seemed a little dimmer than usual, but again, I thought maybe my headlight lens were hazing over again since cleaning them in the summer.


I finally get home and back up into my parking space in front of the house. I shut the car off and get out and realize I parked the car a little too close to the wall in the driveway and being off tomorrow for the holiday (and not using it tomorrow), I decide to move it to keep it out of the way. Well when I went to turn over the engine, it just clicked (very faintly) and wouldn't turn over at all. The headlights seemed to dim down a little. I thought maybe it was the neutral switch, so I ran it through the gears and put in "N", still no change. When I would depress the brake, the radio would go off for about 3 seconds, then resume (I still had the radio on from where I had just turned the car off). I then could NOT get the key to turn back to the "lock" position to remove the key! It was like it was stuck. Out of frustration I go in for a few minutes and come back out and try again... this time it actually cranks, but very slowly and the lights dimming way down. The cables look a little corroded (which I was unaware of), so I am not sure if that is the problem or if the battery has just conked out. My dad looked and he said that he thought it said it was installed a year ago (11/13), but it looks much older than that to me, plus the lady I got it from in July told me that her mechanic told her that the battery would need to be changed soon. I will look at the date myself as well, my dad may have misread it. I had planned on relaxing tomorrow, but looks like I will be cleaning battery terminals/cables and/or getting a new battery. I am just glad I made it home. It was strange though that it was good enough to keep the car running with no warning light, then I shut it off and it will not even crank at all, then my key not wanting to turn off. Maybe it was just something to do with the electrical system being low on power causing crazy things? Hopefully it isn't the ignition switch shorting out or something. I am just thankful I made it home with no fanfare. I was losing a lot of power coming home, headlights, blower from the heater and even the seat heater (as it was in the 40s).


Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
have the alternator and battery tested. pep Boys, Advanced and simlar places should be able to do that for you.

kinda seems like an alternator issue. If so, having a local rebuilder rebuid your original soob alt. is often better than a re-manufactured alt.
 
#5 ·
1) If by boiling we mean there is fluid coming out of the battery you like need both an alternator and a battery.

2) All of this definitely sounds like an on-board charging issue. Check wires and alternator and now the battery that it's been drained will need to be charged first.

3) Cables being corroded can cause all kinds of issues, get them all cleaned up and check you wires more often next time. ;)
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the replies. Thankfully, it turns out only the battery was bad. I tried cranking the car this morning (after cleaning the cables/terminals) and it cranked slowly, then clicked. Turns out that corrosion I saw was only back toward the back part of the cable, not where it was connected to the battery. Still, I cleaned them all up well. Still wouldn't start.


With it being Thanksgiving, I thought all of the auto parts stores would be closed, so I went to Walmart and took the battery with me. There was a guy working in automotive, so I had him test mine first and sure enough, the meter said, "replace battery". He said it only had 190 CCA and it should have been 675 (according to sticker on battery). With that said, I went ahead and bought a new one, came back home and installed it and the car started up instantly time and time again.


The sticker on the battery says 11/13, but the battery looked much older. Also, I couldn't find any receipt or warranty in the glove box for it, but I did see a receipt from June where the PO had the oil changed and the car checked and it said that the battery may need replacing soon, so I guess that was true. Turns out on the way back home, Autozone was actually open, but I guess WM would be cheaper anyway. A new battery was $78.00, so not too bad.


Thanks again!
 
#8 ·
Some of the newer battery testers that measure conductivity, such as the Midtronics PBT-300, do not require the battery to be fully charged in order to test its condition. The tester is powered by the battery, and as long as there's enough power to run it through its initialization and test sequence, the result is usually independent of battery charge. The test result could be "recharge and then retest", but if it comes up with a very low CCA, it's more likely the battery is failing, and even a full charge (if possible) won't correct that.

In regard to the battery light, if the alternator fails, then the battery/charge warning light should come on. But that can happen only if the bulb is good, which can be confirmed with the key set to the ON position but the engine not started. If the bulb is bad, then the alternator won't produce any charging voltage when the engine starts. The result is no charging and no no warning light indication that the alternator isn't working. (In this case the alternator itself isn't faulty; the alternator needs the current through the bulb to start the charging process as soon as the engine is started.)

If the bulb is good, another possibility is that the alternator is good, but the wiring and connections are not. There was a case here some time ago where the battery wasn't being charged and there was no warning light (but the bulb was good). After the alternator was replaced two or three times, the problem was brought to the forum. Turned out there were bad ground connections. After the grounds were restored, the charging system was back to normal.

So even though it's running with the new battery, it might not last. Probably best to have the system checked.

Or, if you have a digital multimeter, the alternator and battery voltage can be checked with the engine running at different speeds and with different loads, and, the voltage loss in the grounds can be checked to identify bad connections.
 
#9 ·
Thanks.


Well since it was T-giving, there weren't many options today other than W-Mart and only being able to get the battery tested. I was surprised that Autozone was open today and since the car wouldn't start I couldn't take it anywhere. Hopefully I will make it to work tomorrow at least and before heading home I will try to try to stop somewhere and have the charging system tested.


Yeah, the battery light does work. It comes on when I turn on the ignition switch and goes off as soon as the car starts. When I said the battery was boiling, it wasn't leaking out acid, but he said he could just hear it making some noise. The tester that the guy at WM used looked like a new testing unit. It just seems to me if the alternator was discharging or overcharging the light would be on, but I could be wrong. I thought that was what the light was designed for.


I am guessing another clue was back in June when the PO had the car inspected before selling, the tech noted that the battery would need to be replaced soon, so it was probably showing signs of failure then. Times like this is when I regret selling my new '13 Honda that I owned outright. I know a battery can and will go bad on all cars, but it has been one thing after another with this Subaru, but it is just showing its age/miles I suppose.


I just hope it is not the alternator. I have been thinking of selling the car and not wanting to spend any unnecessary money on it and lose more money than I already am. Next week I am going to have to shell out about $150 to have a rear wheel bearing replaced.
 
#10 ·
Cars are never an investment; you're always going to be in the hole when you resell! Buy them, use them, fix them, use them more, sell them for what you can get. You'll drive yourself crazy if you think you have to make a profit on every car you ever own.

Trick to sanity is, don't keep track of money. ;)
 
#11 ·
lol, very true at least for me. The only two times they were investments for me is when I purchased a 1971 Caprice for $300... sold it 3 months later to a guy in Miami for $2300. Then I once purchased a 1984 Mercedes 190D for $1700, drove it a year (without having to do anything to it) and resold for $3600. :)


I just don't want to put more unnecessary money into this Subaru if I am thinking of selling it - or try not to go in the hole anymore than I will be, but I think I will still come out pretty good on it. Only what is necessary is what I should have said (which I went back and fixed). :) I just don't like losing a lot of money on cars, but who does. I have been there and done that way too many times. Most recently I paid $4000 for a '93 Mercedes, spent another $500 on it, sold a two years later or $2200. I have a tendency to way overpay for a vehicle just like I did this Subaru. At least the new owner if I sell it will have a good car because I have replaced about everything on it that needs repaired, plus it is a rust free car with a strong engine and good head gaskets. ;)


The cheapest alternator for this car I can find is $160.00 and really not wanting to go there unless I just have to.
 
#12 ·
If the warning light is working, then, yes, if the alternator isn't, or if it's not regulating and putting out too much voltage, the light should come on, perhaps dimly in some cases, but it would show there's a problem.

The only other possibility now is, as noted, there's a problem in the grounds and wiring -- the alternator is working properly, but the charging current isn't getting to the battery.

In regard to the "boiling", if the battery internal conductance is low, charging at proper voltages can cause more heat than usual to build up inside and therefore lead to the sound of bubbling. When a battery is reaching it's end of life, the conductance goes down (or, inversely, the internal impedance goes up) and the battery, even if fully charged, can't deliver the current because of the internal resistance. The CCA readout on the newer testers, such as the Midtronics, isn't an actual current measurement; rather it's the computed CCA based on the measurement of the internal impedance. So, it's quite possible that the original battery was simply on it very last legs and gave up for the holiday.

Good that at least you were able to confirm the battery failure and buy a replacement that resolved the immediate situation. Some simple measurements can now confirm whether or not everything else is well. Shouldn't cost much, if anything. Or get a multimeter for a few dollars and you could do it yourself, and have the tool to figure out what's going on if you have any electrical issues at some time in the future. Harbor Freight usually has some on sale for less that $10.
 
#13 ·
Never trust an idiot light, just swing by an auto store and have them test it. Its quick, free, and gives piece of mind.

I do have one question someone might have an answer to, is the outback battery dependent to run? I know older cars the cheap backyard mechanic check was to just disconnect the battery while running to check the alternator. Of course with today's vehicles electronics its a bad idea to do that, but none the less, can it still be done? Some cars require the battery to run, others will run fine without it. Kinda of curious what category this car falls into
 
#14 ·
As far as I know, the engine is not "dependent" on the battery in order for it to continue to run, as long as the alternator is working. But the battery is needed to start the engine, and to get the alternator going in the first place. (That's where the bulb also comes into play, as I tried to explain earlier.)

Nevertheless, as you rightly note, it's not good for the electronics, which includes the engine controls that, in today's cars, keep the engine running. The regulator determines the alternator output based on the battery voltage. In other words, the battery helps regulate the voltage in the electrical system. With the battery disconnected, the output voltage of the alternator can peak to 17-19 Volts. That could cause more damage than the cost of a proper charging system test.

A basic test for the alternator is to measure the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine off. A fully charged battery would be around 12.7 Volts. A weak battery would be lower. Then start the engine. The voltage at the battery terminals should go up. The voltage measured at battery terminals could vary depending on what accessories and lights are on, and the engine rpm. With no accessories or lights turned on, it should be around 14 V. The increase in voltage between engine off and engine on verifies that the alternator is starting up and working. Granted, it doesn't necessarily confirm that the alternator can deliver all the current it's designed to produce. However, it's simpler and safer than disconnecting the battery.
 
#17 ·
I don't know, but I kind of think even a dead battery is better then no battery as at least it is in there to absorb the voltage spikes. (if not properly regulate them).

I was told once when I had a minor problem and the car was running on the battery,...If I ran out of charge I could hook my jumper pack under the hood and just drive slowly with the hood bungied shut. (and the jumper pack bungied down). This just to limp to the mechanic vs. getting a flat bed, or SLOWLY tow strapping it.

but I made it there on the battery power. (that was a front drive ford, that ruined OEM and aftermarket alternators = 4 over 140,000 miles with a 2.0 Zetec).
 
#16 ·
Yes. That's the battery's part in regulation.

The alternator stator winding puts out an alternating current. The diodes in the alternator rectify this. In short, the output of the alternator is a series of pulses of voltage. The lowest point is zero, the highest is somewhere around 17 V. There's three "phases" that overlap, so while each phase cycles from zero to 17 and back to zero, because they overlap the effective output voltage of the alternator, when it's generating, will not actually go below about 10 V. However, each of the peaks, at 17 V is still there (that's the ripple you mentioned). The peaks, however, are short-term, and the battery absorbs these. In effect, the voltage in the electrical system remains close to the typical 14 V. That's why, if the battery is disconnected, the battery-leveling function is lost and the voltage can go higher.

Understanding Alternators. What is an Alternator and How Does It Work is one of the better articles on alternators I've read. It also recommends against disconnecting the battery.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the replies. Well I am not sure about the alternator and all of that looked like mumbo jumbo to me, but I appreciate it! :)


Ok, I made it to work this morning and back home (using the blower full speed and headlights) about 60 miles round trip with no problems. I went ahead and stopped at Advance Auto Parts on the way home from work and had them test the alternator and though hard to see (blurry) the results are below. He said it was ok for now, but it has a wide range of "ripple". He said it may last 10 years or 10 minutes, but he didn't recommend replacing it right away. I took more photos of the slip, but they didn't come through on my email except this one. At the bottom of this it also said something like .03 and it said "OK".


 
#19 ·
There's varying opinions, but one is that ripple of over 0.5 V is not ideal and could mean there's a bad diode in the alternator itself.

The test slip is also showing that the voltage dropped from 14 V (not bad) to less than 13 V when the system was put under load. It doesn't show how fast the engine was running (i.e. the rpm), but if it was above idle (1000 -1500 rpm) that drop in voltage would also be consistent with a bad diode.

If there is a bad diode, the alternator will not perform as well as it should to maintain the battery charge. The high ripple could also damage the battery over an extended time.

Might be okay for a while but I'd probably have it tested again, perhaps at another place for comparison.
 
#20 ·
Thanks. Well the guy testing it used the throttle under the hood and I estimate that he revved the engine to about 2300-2500 rpms or so. I may run it by Auto Zone tomorrow and let them check it as well and see what they say.


There is a local shop that specializes in rebuilding alternators. I am not sure if this one could be rebuilt or if it would be cheaper to buy a new one, but it looks like they are around $170.00 for this car which is insane. I can get a new one for my '72 Chevy for $39.00, but it don't need one - it still has the original unit and has never been rebuilt. I know it could go out tomorrow, but that really says something I think. I guess back then they were more simple.


I am getting a rear wheel bearing put on it next week (which is going to cost about $150 (with labor), then a for sale sign I think. ;)
 
#21 ·
I know it could go out tomorrow, but that really says something I think. I guess back then they were more simple.
In 1972, only thing the alternator had to do with charge a battery for the first 10 or so minutes which would fully charge it, then all that was left was to operate a couple headlights and some tail lights, radio, blower motor, and a coil, which the battery helped on.

Cars now-a-days are electrical power hogs. All the above, in addition to the countless computers, monitoring systems, climate control systems, heated seats, powerful stereos, even an extra third brake light, they have alot of stress being put on them to constantly put out amperage.

Although i think the reason the one for our engine costs so much more than that of a '72 Chevy is supply and demand. GM's used the same alternator for what? a decade? so there are millions of them. Our outbacks? no so much
 
#22 ·
Yeah, that is my guess as well. They used that for years. The one on my '73 Pontiac lasted until 2 years ago when I got it wet by washing the engine, then it started making a sound. It is a bigger unit though because that car has power windows, power locks, map lights, several interior courtesy lights and cruise control. Most cars back then like you said had less complex systems, but the luxury cars did have a lot of power options. My '72 Buick had power windows, power seat, cruise, power locks, power trunk, speed alert, cornering lights, 6 taillights, 4 brake lights, 4 headlights, so it had a bigger alternator. Even my '72 Chevy has a power tailgate and gate window, which I am sure draws a lot of power. My grandmother had a '72 Lincoln with all of that, plus optional ABS (called Sure-Track on that car). Still a lot less electrics than newer cars.


**Well more on my car - I guess the alternator is indeed on its way out. I stopped by Auto Zone today and had them check it as well and the guy said the alternator was only putting out 12 or 13 volts, I cannot remember, but the screen on his computer said "fail". He used a different machine than what Advance store used last night. He had me start the engine and all he did was hook the cables on his machine to the battery. He didn't rev the engine or anything.


Other than shelling out $170.00 for a new one, there is a little local machine shop that specializes in rebuilding alternators at 1/2 the price of a new one. I know several people that use them and I have even taken some there years ago. I guess it is at least worth a try. They look at it, give you an estimate for repair and you decide if you want them to do it or not. I mean I could sell the car as-is, it hasn't completely failed yet and he said it may last awhile longer, I would not feel right about selling it as-is to someone knowing it was going out and feel ok about it. I am not that kind of person. Still the more to have done to it, the more money I am losing. Oh well.


I might as well set fire to $100 bills.
 
#24 ·
I don't think so, because when they tested the battery they said it was bad too, but it may not have been. Oh well, at least someone will be getting a new battery when they buy my car.


The paper where the girl I bought it from had it checked out before selling said that the battery would need replacing soon, so it must have been going bad as well.


I have owned a lot of cars over the years and this is the first one I have ever actually had go out other than the one on my old Pontiac which started making a noise after I washed the engine. The one on the Subaru is 14 years old however, so I guess it is time it give it up.
 
#25 ·
Everyone will be happy to know that my car has a new alternator now. :) It was getting to where the car seemed like the battery was getting low (warning light still not coming on), so I parked it for a couple of days and drove another car. I had to work all day, but my dad was nice enough to change it out for me. I didn't go with a $600 one from the dealer and I needed one fast, so I just had him pick one up at Autozone for $122.99 (Duralast brand) which was expensive enough for me! I am used to $25.00 alternators for my old American cars. ;) He had them test it again and they said it was only putting out 12 volts.


The car started, lights are bright, all seems well.


(Now to have a rear wheel bearing replaced next week, & a sway bar bushing).


Thanks again for all of the help!
 
#26 ·
This is not a conclusive test, but when you are having battery/alternator problems, I quick easy test is just to take a quick reading of the battery voltage right at the battery with a voltmeter. Try it without the car running, and start it up and check it again. If you are getting good voltage reading when it's running, it's probably not the alternator, if it's not that high it's pointing to the alternator.

Anyway, it's not a conclusive test, but only take about a min to do, and it's a good starting point over guessing.
 
#27 ·
Thanks. Well I don't know what it was, but it has a $100.00 battery and a $122.00 alternator and I am about "finished" with the car. As soon as I pay $160.00 and get a rear wheel bearing replaced, it is going to find it a new home. ;)


I think the alternator going bad ruined my other battery, but not sure.
 
#28 ·
you need a known good battery in the car to test the rest of the components,...so if it was old you got to bite the bullet and get rid of it.

Did you save the old alternator or turn it in as a core? If the duracrap one starts to fail or give you odd problems the old subaru one could be rebuilt.

did you see a brand on the old one, ...if it was a poorly made replacement that could be the source of your problems?
 
#29 ·
Yeah, it (alternator) was tested twice with the new battery installed. Both places said it was going bad. It was tested again today (off of the car) at the auto parts store and they said it was only putting out 12 volts and the battery would not stay charged very long. I do know my headlights, etc were getting dimmer and dimmer and the car was starting to start strangely, or not at all and I would have to turn the key a few times.


The old alternator was turned in as a core... the core charge was $45.00 and I didn't want to keep it, especially if I am planning on selling/trading it soon. The old alternator we took off was the original I think... it said "Fuji" on it.
 
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