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In a deplorable state... this car is killing me

9K views 60 replies 9 participants last post by  Zedhead 
#1 ·
Hi,

About a week and a half ago my 1999 Outback began stuttering while under load. When at stop signs the idle would fluctuate up and down. Over a couple of days it got more pronounced until finally the car would actually stall. It was really hard to keep running then, and I'd have to keep the RPMs up to get it home.

This only happened when the car was good and warmed up.
After checking as many things as I could think of I took it to the dealer. Long story short, they decided the problem was the fact there were some broken evap lines (from rust) and the charcoal cannister was full of gas. They also saud the purge valve was full of gas and shot. They replaced it all -- I had to wait a week for the parts to come in -- and they replaced it. It set me back a pretty penny, too.

I knew those components were faulty, by the way. I could smell gas sometimes, even after I replaced the filler neck last month, so I knew something was up. They weren't making it up.

Well guess what, I picked up the car this morning and on the way home, after it was well warmed up, it did it again. I barely made it into my driveway.

Here's what has been done to car, besides the work the dealer has done:

New plugs and coil, both O2 sensors new, cleaned throttle bottle, new air filter, new TPS, new purge valve, new PCV, new knock sensor.

The battery cables look OK to me, the terminals are clean, the charging system is running at 14.4 V at idle. Battery is good and strong, it endured me turning the car over and over teying to get it to restart the first time it failed.

I'm at my wits' end. I can't put more money in this thing; at this point, I just want to fix it to run and unload it.

Help?
 
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#2 ·
I'm sorry to say that you were really asking for it to take your 99 to a dealership with hesitation/stalling problem. Without a code, the dealership can't find the problem so they just start replacing things that are obviously bad and other things that might not be perfect. And they charge you an arm and a leg.

I have three of these old cars and hesitation/stalling is really a difficult problem to solve. I suggest the following to you, but it may not solve your problem.

1. The idle control and throttle plate are prime potential bad actors. Maybe they didn't clean the throttle plate well enough. So buy a throttle plate gasket [$5] and take it off. You don't have to disconnect the coolant lines. Buy a couple of brushes from the hardware or use old toothbrushes, get a can of throttle plate cleaner, and clean the SOB until it shines. Same with the idle control fitting. You can't get the throttle plate assembly off very far with the coolant lines attached, but far enough to get the job done.

2. The ignition wires are also suspect. Don't test them. Just replace them with OEM wires. I know for a fact that non OEM wires will give you fits, especially when they have lots of mileage on them, and even OEM wires may not last as long as people think they do.

Do that and get back to us.
 
#3 ·
kinda wonder if a vacuum guage might show a problem. Compare a cold reading to a warmed-up reading.

some folks on older cars have had Engine Temp Sensors fail, keeping the car 'choked' as if it were still cold.

plug wire boots not oil-covered from leaking VC gasket? plug wires OK?

just a coupla ideas.
 
#7 ·
I replaced a number of vacuum hoses proactively. I squirted carb cleaner around the manifold and hoses this morning while idling to see if I could get a change in idle. Nothing.

When cold, it pulls all the way to 5500 rpm good and strong. Sure doesn't seem like a fuel starvation problem to me.
 
#5 ·
The earlier parts were not for fixing any problems, it was running fine, low MPGs but fine... once replaced, i was getting mileage in the 25mpg range, really good. I've tried swapping the old stuff back on (except for O2 sensors) to see if the new parts were the problem. no dice.

I ran the car for 1000 miles with no issues. Now, suddenly a problem, and only when warm. When it's cold it idles rock steady.
 
#9 ·
please post the actual code numbers sometimes a code can have multiple symptoms with these cars ie i had a car throw idle air control code and after spending way to much my friend brought it to me and low and behold it wasnt the iac mmotor or even a motor problem at all it was the neutral sensor on the manual trans. The car had very similar symptoms to what your describing
 
#14 ·
I'm in over my head.
Too many Orks...

I kid, but I mean you have a whole bunch of stuff circling around your wagon. (pun intended here) The issues have to be addressed one at a time, verified and ruled out. That means backtracking and probably getting plainOm involved, but you want to get organized 1st...as far as how he can help.
 
#15 ·
I replaced the fuel filter (turns out it did need it -- rusty gas poured back out of the 'in' spigot) but the car still ran like crap after it warmed up and then it stalled. Codes: P0302, P0303, P0304. No other codes this time. I did not replace the crank sensor, but I did pull it and check its harness connector and made sure there were no metal filings stuck to its magnet to confused the signal.
 
#19 ·
When I start it up, I let it idle a minute -- just until I'm sure oil pressure is up and stabilized, then drive in a relaxed manner until the car is warm.

It's been mid 60's to upper 70's around here lately, and humid because of rain off and on.
 
#18 ·
I went and restarted it after letting it sit long enough to be cooled off. It gave off a lot of black smoke before settling down, then idled normally. Basically, I was starting a flooded engine. It's like it's running super rich, but only when hot.

I wonder if the fuel pressure regulator is stuck way too high or something? Are they variable/rising rate on these cars?
 
#20 ·
Can you locate the ignitor? (Google: Subaru ignitor for photos.)

In the pre-2000s, the engine control module controls the spark through an ignitor module. The module, in turn, triggers the coil(s) to generate the high voltage for the plugs. As an electronic device, the module can develop heat sensitive faults. I'm wondering if this might be the case here.

I believe the ignitor module is mounted on the firewall in the engine compartment. If the fault is easily repeated by cooling everything down and then warming up again, perhaps see if the misfiring can be reduced or eliminated, with the engine running, by blowing cold air on the module (only) for some time -- a hair dryer on the "cold" setting might work. The idea is to bring the module back down to the ambient air temperature (rather than the higher temperature of a closed engine compartment) while the engine remains hot. If the fault can be reduced or eliminated, that would clearly point to the cause. In fact, this approach might work for other parts that are somewhat off the engine and can be cooled.

There's other suggestions that have been made, including bad spark plug wires (especially in humid conditions), and oil leaks into the spark plug tubes that, as traildogck noted, should also be looked into.
 
#21 ·
Another thing to consider is that when cold, the fuel injection system is running in closed loop. Meaning it is running on a pre-programmed inj curve. Once the engine is warm, it is dependent on various sensors for proper fuel injection.

When you replaced the TPS, did you set it properly with a meter?

If you are smelling gas after letting it cool, then you're prolly running way to rich.
When was the last time the O2 sensors were replaced?

A couple of other things to test would be the intake air temp sensor, and the coolant temp sensor.
 
#24 ·
I'll check the ignitor as you suggest. This problem is definitely heat-related. I'm also going to start the car tonight when it's dark and look for a light show under the hood. The spark plugs are new, and there was no oil anywhere. Plug tubes bone dry.
 
#25 ·
One other thing. Make SURE that your coolant is full. Do not depend on the reservoir for coolant checks. Check the radiator WHEN COOL. If the coolant falls below the crossover tube (where the coolant temps sensor is located) you will get all sort of crappy results.
 
#27 ·
I made the dealer flatbed the car back to the dealership, no charge. They worked on it last time on a 'fix to run' basis and failed. They are going to fix it... or things will be unpleasant. They assure me they will 'make this right'. We shall see.
 
#28 ·
So they warmed it up and drove it around with a diagnostic scope on it. They said the upstream O2 sensor was defective and calling for too much gas once the car was warm. I bet it's been a good long time since they took this much trouble over a 99.

I guess it's plausible, the O2 sensor I bought was from Rockauto, it may not have been up to snuff. They are going to install an OEM one and charge me nothing but the cost of the part. They are also going to hang on to the car another day and drive it again to make sure it's fixed. The part won't be here until Thursday or Friday though.

I'll let you know if it in fact fixes it, these diagnostic threads end without resolution far too often.
 
#30 ·
Update: they replaced the O2 sensor today (finally, took a week for the part to arrive), and the thing was still stalling... they have now determined the Idle air valve is jacked up... they are replacing that on their dime, no charge to me... so we'll see... I had to pay for stuff I probably shouldn't have had to, but now it's eating into their profits. I suspect they are going to really figure this out now.

I've never seen anything like this...
 
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