Update 2/9/2016: I got a response from SOA, and below is my comment from the last page. Nice!
Well, it looks like the web form actually works. SOA contacted me about my reliability concerns, and after a painless conversation, ensured I will not have to worry about the cost of a CVT failure for a very long time. I will now admit that I can see how they stand by their reputation and ensure loyalty. Good to know
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Hello, all. I'm new here, and I *am* sorry to jump right in with a burden, but I have some trouble understanding something, and searching the forums doesn't seem to yield any similar issues.
This weekend, my 2015 transmission failed completely - started to stick in about 2nd gear, got worse when I got up to 30-40, and eventually lit nearly every warning light on the entire dashboard. I didn't even know "Eye Sight" could *go* yellow - the things you learn :wink2:
So, it's in the dealer, and they're replacing the whole CVT. At 25,000 miles, with no hard/special use, just highway and city driving.
I genuinely don't get it. This is my first experience with the Subaru engine and a CVT, and I'm blown away this thing can just up and die this early. I ran my Kia Sepha to 150K+, and my Jeep Liberty to over 200K+. Neither blew an entire transmission. From what I'm reading, this seems normal to some people?
Is this just an expected risk, and I never accounted for it? Happy to take the blame if so. :smile2:
Obviously it should not have failed that early in it's life....but it's mechanical and mechanical things break. Fortunately you are still covered under you warranty.
Sticking in 2nd sounds like failed internals or valve body failure. Make thousands of these your bound to see some flawed parts and failures now and then. There is a reason auto makers have standard warranties.
I might not be describing it fully and correctly, sorry - best I can describe it is hard shifting and jerking through all the gears, just at different severity levels. It started out severe when moving from from full stop into gear and starting to roll. But then it fluctuated, disappearing sporadically as I accelerated. Didn't panic the dashboard lights until I got to the speeds above. Hard to precisely diagnose, as it escalated quickly.
They said it was still being diagnosed this morning, but also were already ordering a refurb CVT. 2-3 days for order and 2-3 for install, so I might not have another conversation for a while. Enjoying the loaner Forester for now
I'd be really surprised if they got it back to you in 6 business days. I wouldn't plan on having it back before two weeks.
Sorry for your experience. My fiance's 2014 Foz had 40k on it when we turned it in and only had 3 brake switches die in that 40k. Nothing wrong with her 2016, and both my 2015 and 2016 Outbacks haven't had issues other than the dreaded "battery". But I'm hard on a battery with a dash cam running while parked, so that's not really the car/brands fault. I would probably talk to SoA, they might give you something for your trouble. Good luck.
Will be interesting to see the durability of the CVT in the 3.6's. That's why I went for a 2014 instead of new. I can't fathom paying nearly 10K for a Tranny!
This weekend, my 2015 transmission failed completely - started to stick in about 2nd gear, got worse when I got up to 30-40, and eventually lit nearly every warning light on the entire dashboard. I didn't even know "Eye Sight" could *go* yellow - the things you learn :wink2:
Pretty much what was said by someone else on here - I'm guessing this is basically a one off. I'd be willing to bet that SOA wants that transmission back so their engineers can study it to see WHY it went bad. We make our own transmissions, unlike some other components that are made by other companies (like the steering columns ...).
Keep in mind there are no gears in the transmission - it's two variable pulleys and the steel chain. So if it was getting 'stuck' in a certain pulley ratio, there may have been some kind of hydraulic failure. I would think they'd be replacing it with a new transmission since it'd be covered under the 5/60 powertrain warranty and SOA is going to pay the bill, not you or the dealership.
Hello, all. I'm new here, and I *am* sorry to jump right in with a burden, but I have some trouble understanding something, and searching the forums doesn't seem to yield any similar issues.
This weekend, my 2015 transmission failed completely - started to stick in about 2nd gear, got worse when I got up to 30-40, and eventually lit nearly every warning light on the entire dashboard. I didn't even know "Eye Sight" could *go* yellow - the things you learn :wink2:
So, it's in the dealer, and they're replacing the whole CVT. At 25,000 miles, with no hard/special use, just highway and city driving.
I genuinely don't get it. This is my first experience with the Subaru engine and a CVT, and I'm blown away this thing can just up and die this early. I ran my Kia Sepha to 150K+, and my Jeep Liberty to over 200K+. Neither blew an entire transmission. From what I'm reading, this seems normal to some people?
Is this just an expected risk, and I never accounted for it? Happy to take the blame if so. :smile2:
I was worried about the CVT and I purchased this coverage from subaru: New Gold Plus 7yr/100,000 $0 Deductible. I did it after I purchased my car purchase. You should consider buying some extended warranty from Subaru if you plan to pick the car for the long haul.
I have never purchased extended warranties on my toyotas or hondas before, but I love this outback since it has eyesight and they don't make you buy an expensive trim line or package to get all the great safety features.
I'm painfully aware that the only leverage I have is to dump the car I love for some Toyota in order to get lifetime power train protection. It's not pleasant. Even after my original dealer damaged the front washer delivery during a windshield replacement and took 3 trips to get them to fix it, it wasn't a big thing. I love this car, more than anything I've ever owned. I was hoping for 10+ years and close to 200k.
But you know, the power train is only 60k. So if you have to replace the transmission every 25k miles, that's 8 replacements, and it adds up. Does that sound irrational? Well it is! But in the absence of any real or concrete information or choices, you have to plan for risk. Guess I should have gotten the extended warranty.
I'm painfully aware that the only leverage I have is to dump the car I love for some Toyota in order to get lifetime power train protection. It's not pleasant. Even after my original dealer damaged the front washer delivery during a windshield replacement and took 3 trips to get them to fix it, it wasn't a big thing. I love this car, more than anything I've ever owned. I was hoping for 10+ years and close to 200k.
But you know, the power train is only 60k. So if you have to replace the transmission every 25k miles, that's 8 replacements, and it adds up. Does that sound irrational? Well it is! But in the absence of any real or concrete information or choices, you have to plan for risk. Guess I should have gotten the extended warranty.
So, I *did* ask the service consultant at the dealer if they could put a new one in instead of refurb, and he said they (emphasis on the "they") normally do remanufactured unless they're out. If you're talking about being polite, that's pretty much the extent of universally agreed-upon politeness. Because anything else is equivalent to going around or above this guy to get a better answer, or arguing with him about a policy he may have no control over.
So, we'll see. I'll definitely update the thread with any findings the dealer chooses to share.
I would let the local service advisor know that you will contact SOA to see if they would pay for a new transmission. He will have no objection to it. It may even make his life easier because in that case he would not have to make that request on your behalf.
Mike, just let the dealer know that you prefer a new tranny and ask if you need to discuss this with SOA to make it happen. They won't mind you going to SOA and you don't need to worry about alienating the dealer (this is normal stuff to them).
I'd be talking to SOA to ask for a new transmission as your mileage is quite low for a failure. If they say "no," I'd ask them to extend the powertrain warranty to 7 years/100K.
From the Subaru Technical Information System web site, TSB 03-67-12R:
Service Bulletin # 03-67-12R
Bulletin Description: Subaru of America, Inc. is pleased to announce our first-ever remanufactured CVT program. Supplies are available. Effective immediately, dealers are required to use a remanufactured unit when the transaxle requires major repair or overhaul, except in the case of a “new” and “in-stock” vehicle. Please check applications and availability through normal parts channels prior to making vehicle repairs. ... 03-67-12R
03-67-12
I guess as soon as you drive it off the lot it's not "new" any longer. So unless the CVT completely fails on a test drive or while the dealer is moving the car around the lot, which if highly unlikely, the consumer will never get a new CVT. Which to me is not a big deal as long as the replacement part is warrantied as well.
I can't speak for the Subaru remanufacturing process, but 30+ years ago when I was affiliated with a domestic mfg, a remanufactured auto trans (if supplied from the mfg) was either just as, or even less, likely to have a future failure than a new one. The new ones were built on an assembly line with many people involved while the mfg remanufactured was either one sent back down that same line, but with a previously used housing, or was rebuilt by one experienced tech who did that day in amd day out, who knew if there was a problem in the future it could be traceable directly back to his work. Other than the casing, most internals were new. No slight to the assembly line folks intended, but except for when a screw up was consistent and caused a recall or stop sale, an odd slip up during assembly that did not get caught in QC would not likely come back to haunt you - unless you shot your mouth off about it like a college football player once did.
The reason a new or dealer inventory car would get new over remanufactured I suspect has more to do with state laws regarding what can be sold as a "new" car rather than the quality of a new vs remanufactured tranny.
I can't speak for the Subaru remanufacturing process, but 30+ years ago when I was affiliated with a domestic mfg, a remanufactured auto trans (if supplied from the mfg) was either just as, or even less, likely to have a future failure than a new one. The new ones were built on an assembly line with many people involved while the mfg remanufactured was either one sent back down that same line, but with a previously used housing, or was rebuilt by one experienced tech who did that day in amd day out, who knew if there was a problem in the future it could be traceable directly back to his work. Other than the casing, most internals were new. No slight to the assembly line folks intended, but except for when a screw up was consistent and caused a recall or stop sale, an odd slip up during assembly that did not get caught in QC would not likely come back to haunt you - unless you shot your mouth off about it like a college football player once did.
I'll defer to your experience in this because I'm certainly no expert. From that description, however, I don't see much, if any, opportunity for cost savings, unless the housing and whatever else they reuse is really expensive. Even then, you have the cost of handling, dismantling, and salvaging the returned parts.
Does anyone know how much less expensive a remanufactured CVT is than a new one?
The reason a new or dealer inventory car would get new over remanufactured I suspect has more to do with state laws regarding what can be sold as a "new" car rather than the quality of a new vs remanufactured tranny.
I agree with with DFQ-BDB that remanufactured can be better then new.
I would have no qualms about accepting a remanufactured. I might though, try to push the dealer to offer an extended drivetrain/CVT warranty out to 100,000.
Just FYI, I have a friend I have helped with a Mini Cooper, and their CVT is KNOWN for failure before 100k, usually well before. The transmission is not rebuildable according to BMW and thus you have to buy a new one. Since they have a very high failure rate, I'd imagine you would only put a salvage yard unit in it if you were going to sell the car. These new ones they cost $7000 plus labor. Many cars that need it are not even worth as much as the expense. Some (rare) shops are doing manual trans conversions. The rest of them are getting trashed.
So, I was somewhat nervous about the CVT on the outback, but hopefully these failure cases are rare. A relative has a Jeep Liberty and that transmission failed in only a few thousand miles, stuff happens. Hope repair goes well. I also was not used to CVT, but its so smooth it makes the shifting of my Optima seem less refined.
Just wanted to say thanks for everyone's feelings and good info on this My position is going to be the same with or without leverage: If people act like this is a "normal" failure, that's crazy and expensive. So what if it's not? I have the outback where it *is*, so my problem > everyone else's happiness. So if it's not a normal failure, why is the vendor going to treat it like a normal failure? Extraordinary failures = extraordinary actions. Sending the vendor more money to buffer against the risk of another extraordinary failure really isn't rational on its face, in the "throwing good money after bad" vein.
Ok, I got all that out All that said, reality is reality. Zero options = extended warranty. I wish I didn't live and breathe Eye Sight so much - it looks like it's 5+ years ahead of the competition or anything else out there. But at least I can get an extended warranty that covers that, so bonus.
I will definitely update the thread with my dealer interactions as requested. And the next time it ices over (next year, likely in NC), I'll post pictures of the special thing that happens to the rear gate hinge
I want to clarify something. I think think this is a "normal failure" in that it will happen every 25k, or to every car. Just that a car is a complicated machine, and you can look on any forum and see a trans/engine/etc failure at some point even though it is new, or next to new. As your and someone else's comparison with the Liberty. Chrysler is pretty well known for transmission failures (or so they were in the early 2000's.) I will say when I worked for Nissan we kept an Altima transmission in stock, and our stocking levels required us to sell three before we stocked the item. Many parts departments have the same policy, which means they don't see enough failures for them to keep the trans in stock.
It sucks that this happened to you, but I don't feel it is a common occurrence or you would see many more threads here about it.
If I were you, as I stated before, I would reach out to Subaru of America, express your frustration nicely, and I would be completely shocked if they didn't give you something for your trouble.
Just a side note. Eye sight tech using stereoscopic ie 3D cameras came out of a Stanford project with a couple of students. Mercedes is the only other brand using similar optical tech and logic.
Subaru top management set a lofty goal of zero accidents with their cars by 2020. I suspect they ment avoidable accidents either way no doubt this tech is saving lives.
Just a side note. Eye sight tech using stereoscopic ie 3D cameras came out of a Stanford project with a couple of students. Mercedes is the only other brand using similar optical tech and logic.
Last summer I had two CVT's replaced in two weeks on a Gen 4 with 30K miles. The first replacement was a refurb, the second was new. Both were over $7k on the bill. Both under warranty. I asked the service manager why one refurb and one new? His response was because that's what was available. Sometimes new, sometimes refurb. We take what we can get to get angry people back on the road.
You guys worry too much about hypotheticals. The only consistent issues have seen in the gen 5 Outback is the weak OEM batteries and windshield cracking from the lower cowl.
Subaru’s are well known for very reliable drivetrains when taken care of. HG’s have plagued many of their power plants and that is still the case. The most reliable transmissions when maintained properly were the 4EAT and 5EAT in the Gen 2 and 3. They are robust and hard to break. Neither like added HP to stock motors but when run in a stock car and taken care of they will outlast the car in many cases. My current 4EAT in my 01 has over 265k with only fluid changes and many have gone over 400k. I have run Mobil 1 Syn ATF in my 4EAT from day one and Sub HP in my 5 EAT. It is not a fluke and obvious Subaru is having major trouble with their current CVT offering and had many issues with early generations of CVT in the late 80’s/90’s and were scrapped in all of their cars because of poor reliability and failure at very low mileage (sounds familiar). I personally am not a fan for many reasons including reliability and longevity being a major factor. Time will tell and I hope I’m wrong, but getting 200-300k out of one is not looking good at this point. 100-150 or < may be the norm with these early 5th generation Lineartronic CVT’s. One thing is true, they will improve over time and become more robust or like in the past go like the dinosaurs. To be fair Subaru is not the only MFG having major issues with CVT’s other Auto MFG are as well.