No you can't do what I do, I have AWD. A roadrage thread.

[AllWhiteOB]

That's what they do in nordic countries in Europe: Sweds, Norway, etc...

Now what really ticks me is when i go to work and i tell them i need winter tires on the vehicle i sometimes use to travel to another plant, about 150 miles away. The response came quick: its an AWD, we don't need winter tires. And that's how governments have to intervene and make winter tires mandatory ... For people who can't think for themselves and put other people's life in danger. (not meaning novablue did, because that guy was wreckless and likely got what he was looking for).
Novablue, one way to look at it is that if it wasn't for you he would have probably ended up doing that to someone else at a later time and killing that guy, like Statueim mentions above. But keep this in mind: an AWD car isn't better on ice, when you loose traction. The deciding factor on what is safe on a car is its driver and next winter tires, etc.
The subie will be better on winter conditions if:
- you maintain traction
- your first name is Ari and last is Vatanen or you are some Finnish guy who plays on ice every weekend
Your advantage will translate in you coming out of that curve ahead of the Honda, if you were going in with the same speed and maintain somewhat of a traction throughout. The AWD will help you to get going quicker after half of the curve or so.
On snow and ice though, front wheel drive is just as safe as your AWD.

[jogosub]

Eugenlucan - I second that! (front wheel drive is as safe as AWD). I spent quite some time on Saab's winter testing facility near a place called Jokkmokk in Northern Sweden. Much fun out there in controlled winter/snow/ice driving. That is where I learned to turn 90 degrees by hand braking rear wheels and the car would turn at 90 degrees while rear wheels were blocked and sliding sideways...and my name is not Ari Vatanen ... LOL... he was also good in sand, if I recall, he won one of the Paris-Dakar Rally driving 4WD Peugeot then.

[4wheeldog]

When someone flies up behind me, especially on winter roads, I take my first opportunity to pull over, let them by.........Probably mostly because I am old and have nothing to prove........But also, because watching someone wreck their car from behind is more entertaining than trying to watch in the mirrors. Plus, I am way less likely to be personally involved in their wreck. Just sayin'.

[AllWhiteOB]

Sweden ... Finland .... Different flavors of the same thing
See the Topgear where they get wooped by 17 year old girls in Finland ... Results are 99% exercise and 1% talent .

[statueim]

Originally Posted by jogosub

Eugenlucan - I second that! (front wheel drive is as safe as AWD).

On their own (no traction control systems), I would tend to agree and might even say in this case that FWD is safer than AWD (2 wheels out of control vs. 4 wheels out of control). That said, FWD traction control systems tend not to be as sophisticated and I think modern AWD vehicles with snow tires would tend to be safer than FWD vehicles with snow tires for that reason alone since the typical driver who does not deal with emergency maneuvering in the snow/ice with much regularity (myself included) by making the vehicle more capable of driving like it would on dry pavement.

Then again, if someone cannot get the traction to start moving in situations when it is dangerous, you never have to worry about them stopping either. So, AWD can be more dangerous still by giving a false sense of control as with the many large AWD/4WD SUVs and trucks I see stuck off on the side of the highway during heavy snowfall.

[subiesailor]

Not really road rage you cant control cars other than your own. Had you gone slower that driver may have
Collected you in a spin then both of you would have guard rail rash. Seeing a wreck in the making is simply defensive driving. If I posted every wreck in the making Ive seen it would make a book. Riding a motorcycle 64,000 miles in 5 yrs of commuting to work you see every stupid human trick imaginable at the wheel.

[jp1203]

Originally Posted by statueim

On their own (no traction control systems), I would tend to agree and might even say in this case that FWD is safer than AWD (2 wheels out of control vs. 4 wheels out of control). That said, FWD traction control systems tend not to be as sophisticated and I think modern AWD vehicles with snow tires would tend to be safer than FWD vehicles with snow tires for that reason alone since the typical driver who does not deal with emergency maneuvering in the snow/ice with much regularity (myself included) by making the vehicle more capable of driving like it would on dry pavement.

In regard to not being able to get moving, I've had situations where people couldn't get started on an incline in the winter, and they'd create a very slick surface under their wheels from spinning. Then they hit the brakes and guess what? They slide back. That creates a dangerous situation for the people behind them. Sometimes it's surprising how far they slide back.

[statueim]

Originally Posted by jp1203

In regard to not being able to get moving, I've had situations where people couldn't get started on an incline in the winter, and they'd create a very slick surface under their wheels from spinning. Then they hit the brakes and guess what? They slide back. That creates a dangerous situation for the people behind them. Sometimes it's surprising how far they slide back.

Unless they're on some serious hills with drop-offs on either side, or in an area frequented by pedestrians, I can't imagine this situation being generally too dangerous (fatal). I was thinking more of the cars not being able to stop driving 50mph on the highway for two different reasons: 1.) It's a big SUV without traction trying to stop, 2.) It's a FWD car that never got on the highway because it got stuck trying to get out of the driveway .

Very good point though. That said, the steeper the incline, the farther the fall (and the greater the danger). AWD/4WD cars make for an even more dangerous situation on a big incline by being able to get up farther before the slide. Here is one such video set to Benny Hill (watch the big trucks/SUVs that continue up the hill toward the beginning of the video that make special guest appearances later):

20 Car Pile up on South Carefree and Powers Colorado Springs - Benny Hill - YouTube

20 Car Pile up on South Carefree and Powers Colorado Springs - Benny Hill - YouTube

[Novablue]

Originally Posted by eugenlucan

What i don't understand is how AWD prevents you from sliding. Traction control yes, but likely the Honda had that feature too.
All i am saying, you had no way of knowing for sure you will stick to the road and he won't.
When you hit ice, it doesn't quite matter how many wheels are pulling. Try that corner with a 4x4 and you will know what I mean.
....
Get with the program! hahaha

I drove a Jeep and some late 70's GMC 4x4 for years. I'll say this, if what you are trying to say is that 4x4/AWD doesn't make you invincible, then yes I agree. When you go to stop tires make all the difference. But 4 wheels having power and good tires are better than 2 wheels having power and good tires. Been there myself too.

I'll go so far as to say that FWD with snows is as good or better than AWD with All Seasons. But saying that FWD with snows = AWD with snows or better than, you are plumb crazy. Not my personal experience at all. Having power where you need it and able to use that power effectively is key.

Don't Believe me? Don't take my word for it, just talk to rally racers.

Originally Posted by statueim

I agree, the title of this thread is very misleading (however, I do not agree that the 90's accord likely had equivalent traction control--if any--or snow tires based on Nova's description). The snow/ice tires you are running played a huge roll beyond just having traction control on 4 wheels. I comment because I hate the myth that 4 wheels moving makes a car invincible in snow/ice conditions--particularly because I find it's the gigantic SUV/pickup segment that likes to tailgate me in severe weather and I highly doubt their stopping ability (who needs snow tires with 4WD/AWD, right? ... tisk tisk) as much as I would doubt this 90's Honda accord's stopping ability. What I don't doubt about these SUVs/pickups relative to a smaller Honda accord is their ability to cause a lot more damage with their increased mass/momentum should I need to stop in an emergency situation and potentially be more fatal to me.

AWD is a tool like a wrench or a hammer. It needs to be used intelligently.

Fully agree tires make a bigger difference but I'm fairly sure the AWD helped keep everything in line as I had the Traction control off (you can't turn off stability control) and was using the gas to keep everything moving as it should.

Hmmm. Yep, I just used the word "intelligent" in this thread. Oh the irony.

[Novablue]

Originally Posted by imwjl

If you were pushing it on a public roadway in the presence of others you should feel bad and not do that.

We lost a family member because of the thoughtless driving of another. Yeah, the chances are not that high, but we know those chances exist painfully well. Trust me that the driver caught, first responders, medical staff, coroner and insurers all wish that moment of unsafe driving didn't happen if not exactly the same way we do.

If you want to push it do it in a sport where you may only hurt yourself, a simulator game or sanctioned racing.

I'm sorry for your loss. Unfortunately I think many of us have lost love ones through carelessness or selfishness of others as have I. As stupid as it may sound I have rules that I live by when I do stupid stuff like I out lined above like empty full fenced hwys where I know no pedestrians or other drivers are around.

That doesn't mean what I did was "okay" or "excusable." I'm just trying to say that for the most part when I do something reckless I normally take as many steps as possible to make sure I'm only risking myself. And yea the rest of the time is on privet land.

I have a near flawless driving record for 17 years. I only have that because I'm always worried about someone getting hurt and always assuming that someone is going to do something stupid. I have to keep a good driving record too, it's required for my job.

Originally Posted by statueim

I wish more people experienced non-fatal incidents in the snow to teach them a lesson about how dangerous their driving habits are. Nova, my only critique would be to try to think of a spot that is potentially less fatal next time to prove your point if its possible, but it's better that you lost the other driver around a corner than you ended up going off the road with him/her at some point (what if you had braked around the corner and they slammed into your rear because he/she couldn't stop?). Hopefully the other driver learned a valuable lesson through expenses/rising insurance costs of the incident...

And this is why I kinda feel bad. At the time I didn't really care about any of that. I'm thinking now maybe I bought the wrong car. I should have bought a WRX. People expect driving like this from those people around here. I'm not joking either.

ALL of you have given me more to think about.