Potential purchase question.

[Sky Haussman]

Hi guys! New member, thanks for having me.

First, a quick introduction:
My name is Ken, I'm 30 yo mechanical engineer from Texas. My driving career started with Nissan's Z's (going from a NA to a T, to a TT), then moved to several sport bikes, and an F150 to haul around the sport bikes. The love of motorcycles seems to be on the wane, but sometime during all those years I've became a fan of first rock climbing, and then mountain biking. Both these hobbies tend to take me on long road trips to far away mountains, packing a few friends, and many bags of gear, sleeping bags, tents, ropes, bikes, etc. I've also got a great dane that likes going places as well.

The F150 has served me mostly well, even if it is a tad thirstier than I would like, but at 170k miles it's reliability is coming into question. For it's replacement, I was looking for something that is fun (doesn't have to be really fast, but should be responsive and feel solidly planted, and have a manual transmission), reliable, has ample cargo room, and doesn't drink too much gas. I'm hoping to keep the price in the teens or low twenties. Could the outback be the answer? It sure looks like it could.

From the little reading I've been doing, it seems that I should be looking for an '05-'09 xt model. Edmunds mentions the current gen as being less sporty and more plush feeling, in addition to being more expensive. The non turbo's 170hp seem like (just) enough to get the job done, but doesn't leave much over for acting like a hooligan on the (required) occasion. The 6cyl looks appealing, but doesn't seem to come with three pedals so it's out. I've never had an AWD vehicle, and not sure if I'll get much use out of that feature, but time will tell.

So far, I've found 2 cars that fit the bill. Both are '05 xt limited, one with 90k miles for $13k, the other has 55k miles for $17k. The first is close enough to check out over a weekend, the second is far enough that I would not want to go unless I was buying.

So on to the questions:
What mechanical failures should I watch for when looking at cars? How can they be tested for? I've noticed some threads about HG problems, and that seems pretty scary. What is the easiest, cheapest way to make sure I'm not buying someone else's problem? If HG problems are inevitable, how hard are they to replace? Can it be done with the engine in the car, or does it have to come out? What about clutches, how long do they last, and how expensive do they tend to be to replace?

Are the sun roofs prone to leaking? That huge piece of glass sure looks nice, but it will likely stay closed 99% of its life, and I'd rather avoid it if its problematic.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Ops/Mods: My apologies if this post is in the wrong section. Please move it to where it belongs. Thanks.

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by Sky Haussman

Hi guys! New member, thanks for having me.

First, a quick introduction:
My name is Ken, I'm 30 yo mechanical engineer from Texas. My driving career started with Nissan's Z's (going from a NA to a T, to a TT), then moved to several sport bikes, and an F150 to haul around the sport bikes. The love of motorcycles seems to be on the wane, but sometime during all those years I've became a fan of first rock climbing, and then mountain biking. Both these hobbies tend to take me on long road trips to far away mountains, packing a few friends, and many bags of gear, sleeping bags, tents, ropes, bikes, etc. I've also got a great dane that likes going places as well.

The F150 has served me mostly well, even if it is a tad thirstier than I would like, but at 170k miles it's reliability is coming into question. For it's replacement, I was looking for something that is fun (doesn't have to be really fast, but should be responsive and feel solidly planted, and have a manual transmission), reliable, has ample cargo room, and doesn't drink too much gas. I'm hoping to keep the price in the teens or low twenties. Could the outback be the answer? It sure looks like it could.

From the little reading I've been doing, it seems that I should be looking for an '05-'09 xt model. Edmunds mentions the current gen as being less sporty and more plush feeling, in addition to being more expensive. The non turbo's 170hp seem like (just) enough to get the job done, but doesn't leave much over for acting like a hooligan on the (required) occasion. The 6cyl looks appealing, but doesn't seem to come with three pedals so it's out. I've never had an AWD vehicle, and not sure if I'll get much use out of that feature, but time will tell.

So far, I've found 2 cars that fit the bill. Both are '05 xt limited, one with 90k miles for $13k, the other has 55k miles for $17k. The first is close enough to check out over a weekend, the second is far enough that I would not want to go unless I was buying.

So on to the questions:
What mechanical failures should I watch for when looking at cars? How can they be tested for? I've noticed some threads about HG problems, and that seems pretty scary. What is the easiest, cheapest way to make sure I'm not buying someone else's problem? If HG problems are inevitable, how hard are they to replace? Can it be done with the engine in the car, or does it have to come out? What about clutches, how long do they last, and how expensive do they tend to be to replace?

Are the sun roofs prone to leaking? That huge piece of glass sure looks nice, but it will likely stay closed 99% of its life, and I'd rather avoid it if its problematic.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Ops/Mods: My apologies if this post is in the wrong section. Please move it to where it belongs. Thanks.

Ken I have nothing against the XT ie Subaru Turbo's but if you want a ride you can just drive - and drive and do basic maint stuff too the XT is no the car. There are several threads here in the forum about blown and failed Turbo's for a reason. Use search and read up on them. At least you'll be going into the XT purchase well informed. Most XT's being sold used are being sold for a reason. That reason being that the cost of keeping them properly running and the cost of turbo failure and even engine replacement is generally far beyond what most people are willing to pay for a tall wagon.

As for your use? From 2001 through 2009 my wife and I along with our Red Doberman spent many weeks every summer camping - and towing our racing sailboat up and down the west coast between Seattle and San Diego and also up into the Sierra's with our 2.5L 5spd Legacy GT non turbo. Zero major issues for 160,000 miles. During the winters we did big snow trips chasing big storms for some epic snow skiiing in Tahoe which has about just shy of 30ft on the ground right now not once did we get stuck.

If you don't need a wagon the legacy limited in the 05-09 range 5spd mt is a fantastic car for the money - if you can find one! The legacy wagon limited was built 2005-2007 also a fantastic car. By the way its the same exact car as the outback except the legacy by far has a far superior suspension for on road driving over the outback and the difference between the legacy and the outback before 2010 regarding off road ability is very small.

The OB XT is the same car as the Legacy Wagon GT except you get the lame handling of the outback with 250hp up front.

One thing I will say the 5spd which is in the OB till 2009 is FAR far superior than the new 6spd MT given the 5spd is gear far lower from 1st gear making it possible to do off road trips and towing small trailers or boats while the new 6spd is very poorly geared way too tall even for an empty OB making major hill climbs a virtual no go. Which is why I went with the new CVT in our 2010 when we replaced our Legacy. A kid and a Dog + gear and a grand parent at times the wagon was the only option.

But from a legacy stand point if its just you? Get a legacy they can rip the curves super fun to drive on road and are far far capable enough to take you bombing up a logging road with no issues. That and you can find them for less than a comparable Outback.

If it weren't for the kid I would have kept my 01 legacy GT limited for another few years even at 160,000 miles. Fantastic car!

[DrCloud]

Welcome, Ken -- You're clearly doing the right research on this potential purchase.

Opinions about the aspirated Outbacks will vary from dismissive (see above) to enthusiastic. We have two -- an Outback XT, which my wife drives, and a Legacy GT Spec.B (which is tuned). My opinion tends toward the enthusiasm end of the spectrum, although that's tempered by several things.

Previously, we had a Forester XT; we traded it for the Outback's longer wheelbase and more comfortable road feel on long trips. We had purchased the Forester XT when we lived in Santa Fe because its predecessor, an NA Forester, was just too weak to be functional in the mountains for our tastes.

Aside from an issue for which Subaru issued a recall (a turbo oil line that dripped onto the exhaust header, producing embarrassing amounts of smoke on 07s and 08s), we've not had a single problem with the drive train on any of these cars. (Nor have the sun/moon roofs had any leaks or other problems.)

That said, ours were all purchased new and maintained above and beyond Subaru's specs. One problem with a used car is always prior maintenance, of course; this is why everyone recommends paying for a third party inspection by a mechanic familiar with the marque in question.

If you can find a manual transmission XT with good service records that inspects well, I think that driving it will tempt you mightily. They're outstanding cars for the sorts of interests you've expressed. Be aware that the automatic transmission that Subaru puts in the Outback XT is a five-speed that's shiftable -- it reminds me of the Tiptronic that I had in my Audi allroad a few years back. In fact, except for the adjustable suspension on the allroad, the two cars are quite similar, in terms of functionality. (The Audi, of course, was more well appointed in the interior.)

I think it's fair to suggest that used Outbacks, with turbo, are less likely to have been abused than, say, used STIs or WRXs. The Outback is, after all, rather staid station wagon with some capabilities that put it in the "sleeper" category. And, given the extra ground clearance of the Outback compared to the Legacy, your outdoor interests suggest it would suit you well. HPH

[PharmGirl]

Hi Ken, I have an '05 XT that I love. So far, no problems with it at all. I have all the maintenance done on time and have taken very good care of it. I have 87K on it and am thinking of selling it before it hits 100K as I don't want to have to repair the turbo. But I really hate the idea of selling it, its such a great little car.

[cougar70]

The alternative is to get an OBW with the H6.

I'm a recent convert but I started with 163K and after a month and a half I'm at almost 166K miles. I am getting 21 mpg on a 28 mile commute between Baltimore & just outside of DC.

Runs like a champ. I'm going to get an oil analysis done when I change the oil to see if there are any potential issues. At idle in neutral, you can hardly tell it's running.

If you go with the H6 you won't have to worry about the turbo issues or replacing the timing belt at 105K.

Just my 2 cents.

[subiesailor]

The H6 from a power stand point also has more grunt down low than the XT so from an every day driving stand point its more enjoyable also. The only issue with the H6 that seems to crop up on a regular basis is the chain guides and tensioners they wear out so having those all replaced at the 100K mark is probably a good idea.

Nice engine - when its not driven hard you can run regular fuel with little issue. But anytime your doing hard hauls - climbs or race car driving it will need premium. But should be far more reliable and lower cost than the XT turbo.

[Sky Haussman]

Thanks for the kind welcome everyone!

How quickly I've forgotten the lottery that is buying a used charged vehicle. Do you guys think that a compression test will be enough to identify ailing gaskets and rings? Would the old "Rev the crap out of it and look for black smoke" be good enough to identify leaking turbo seals? Any other quick tests you happen to be familiar with? While we are at it, is the turbo housing water cooled?

I completely forgot about the premium fuel requirement, that will chip at the MPG advantage. Does the i version require premium fuel as well, or does it run on regular? Is there an anti-knock system to keep the engine damage at bay when the right fuel grade is not available?

The H6 sounds perfect, but without a stick shift, it is simply not an option. The shiftable automatics are fine, if thats your thing, but I need a clutch pedal. I suppose I need to test drive one of the i's, as I have a hard time seeing a relatively large car with less hp than a motorcycle being much fun, but I'm hoping to be proven wrong.

Can someone explain the model line up for me? I thought there was an outback, which was a legacy station wagon, and an outback sport, which was a 5 door impreza. How does the legacy wagon differ from the OB?

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by Sky Haussman

Thanks for the kind welcome everyone!

How quickly I've forgotten the lottery that is buying a used charged vehicle. Do you guys think that a compression test will be enough to identify ailing gaskets and rings? Would the old "Rev the crap out of it and look for black smoke" be good enough to identify leaking turbo seals? Any other quick tests you happen to be familiar with? While we are at it, is the turbo housing water cooled?

I completely forgot about the premium fuel requirement, that will chip at the MPG advantage. Does the i version require premium fuel as well, or does it run on regular? Is there an anti-knock system to keep the engine damage at bay when the right fuel grade is not available?

The H6 sounds perfect, but without a stick shift, it is simply not an option. The shiftable automatics are fine, if thats your thing, but I need a clutch pedal. I suppose I need to test drive one of the i's, as I have a hard time seeing a relatively large car with less hp than a motorcycle being much fun, but I'm hoping to be proven wrong.

Can someone explain the model line up for me? I thought there was an outback, which was a legacy station wagon, and an outback sport, which was a 5 door impreza. How does the legacy wagon differ from the OB?

The right question would be how does the outback differ from the legacy. Given the outback is just a lifted Legacy wagon with some plastic stuff slapped on the sides.

The non turbo runs on regular no need to get spendy on that LOL.

The impreza wagon has off and on been referred to as the outback sport which was usually the upper level model of the impreza wagon. Totally different platform than the legacy and outback based on the legacy.

Subaru has made three core platforms the impreza, legacy and the larger heavier Tribeca platform.

The impreza platform is what the Forester is built on.

The outback is simply a SUV'ed up Legacy wagon.

[AWDFTW]

Subaru Research Site- specs, prices, options, 2011, 2010, 2009.. Outback, Legacy, Forester, Impreza, Tribeca

[Seabass]

If you are set on a manual wagon, then you are stuck with the h4 non turbo or the xt. It really is a lottery and one that I wouldn't play without a full service history on the xt. I will say that I have been nothing but impressed by the xt's auto trans which is the same as on the h6. I was set on waiting for a manual until I drove the auto. I was shocked at how well it shifted in manual mode. Very fast and precise if you go with the 05 or 06. The high stall torque converter on the xt's auto also eliminates the normal lack of low end torque you get from a 4cyl turbo. Lots of torque all over.

As was mentioned, the xt is not cheap to maintain. It needs oil changes at 3750 miles and it drinks gas like a v8 when you get on the boost.

Just make sure you have full service history of oil changes on the turbo model or go with the h6 auto.