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I hate toll roads

5K views 35 replies 21 participants last post by  dianer 
#1 ·
I hate toll roads.

Just after the banter about them in a thread about the coin tray, I received a letter yesterday marked "License Plate Toll Statement - Do Not Discard". Huh? I haven't been on any toll roads (that I knew of) that I hadn't already paid cash for in years.

Even though it looked like junk mail, I opened it anyway. It was a bill demanding $1.50 for a toll charge from... somewhere. It didn't even clearly identify what state it was from, other than the address on the payment coupon was Denver, CO., but I haven't yet driven the OB (whose license plate number was identified) in Colorado, ever. The fine print included the location as "E470 Smoky Hill Rd South". Where the heck is that? Google Maps shows the intersection of a Smoky Hill Rd and something called E470 in, yep, Aurora Colorado, a suburb of Denver.

For billing inquiries they provide a toll-call number. For pay-by-phone they provide a local number (same as the toll-call number) and a toll-free 888 number. Screw that, I called the 888 number - which worked - might as well make them pay some of the freight since they obviously screwed up. The very pleasant rep who answered after about 4 minutes on hold quickly recognized that an '8' on the photograph was coded incorrectly as a '3', matching my tag number, and told me to disregard the bill. I asked if he would mail a confirmation for my records, but he said they couldn't do that, but if any problem came up, to say that I had talked to <his name and ID number>. I'd already noted that on the bill, which I'll just drop into my files, and the call began with the usual "this call will be recorded..." announcement, so we'll see.

The upshot from what I understand him saying is that their "OCR" is being done by people looking at the photos, reading the license plates and typing in the state and number by hand. It has to have cost $1.50 or more to do this, and prepare and mail the bill, not counting paying people in a call center to field calls like mine and for processing mailed-in payments. What a stupid system!

The only previous time I'd seen something like this was after actually using a toll road in Dallas; more a year later I got a bill from their turnpike authority. It took that long because apparently the Oklahoma DMV was finally forced to release our license-plate records to them. As much as it pains me to give Texas credit for doing anything right [ ;) ], that bill clearly stated the location and included the photo of my license plate. It was also for about $4 or so, which might have made the whole exercise at least marginally profitable.

I hate toll roads and avoid them whenever practical.

Any questions about my feelings on this topic? At least it feels better after a good rant. :)
 
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#10 ·
Past experience is that the E-470 toll can be defeated with just a dirty license plate (at least at night). So drive offroad all the time (now you have an excuse). The old style temp tags that went in the back window also didn't draw toll bills. The new ones might though. The E-470 toll is insanely high though. It's close to $10 to go to the airport and the same to return, so I don't get on there unless I can expense it.
 
#3 ·
There are very few toll roads here in Canada although there is talk of bringing them back. I found them a bit of a PIA when driving in the states because with no electronic pass we had to stop every time we came to the booth...
 
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#4 ·
In Australia in what we call the Eastern States we have a few toll highways or motorways. They all use electronic tags. They are all linked so you can use a highway in another state no problem. Once I saw my account was billed around $3 for a trip I didn't make. Quick email and all was fixed. Yes I hate having to pay to drive down a highway as I pay enough tax on the petrol I use (federal tax). But........highways are paid for and maintained by state governments here. So users pays to get better major arterial roads under private government partnerships. Private companies build and pay a proportion of the cost then get to toll us for 30 years or so. There are some in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. I even won a $100 credit for changing my password on the account a few months back. As I live in a regional city it will take me about 5 years to use it all.
 
#5 ·
If you want to drive north or south on the east coast you need an EZ-pass transponder to stick on your windshield so you can whizz through the EZ-pass lane while all those other loosers wait to pay the toll. My wife needs to go through the Baltimore harbor tunnel to work every day and gets a huge discount by using the pass and having it paid automatically from our bank account. Toll roads are a necessary evil in places where tens of thousands of cars use the roadway every day.

What I hate are those red light and speed cameras. My Garmin has a warning for those and school zones. Although, they use speed cameras in construction zones that can be in a different place every day. I paid two $40 tickets this year while running late. My own fault and a reminder to give those poor guys a break. Though it does irk me when they have the camera set up an no one is working within miles of it.
 
#20 ·
If you want to drive north or south on the east coast you need an EZ-pass transponder to stick on your windshield so you can whizz through the EZ-pass lane while all those other loosers wait to pay the toll.
On the other side of the coin, there are millions of motorists who do not commute on a toll road. On the rare occasion that they may use a toll road does not make them losers. On the privacy rights front, there are those who do not want the getting-ever-bigger big brother knowing where they are and when.
These are the clear winners, IMO.
 
#7 ·
In some states they are about to close out the last cash lanes- if you don't have the RF tag you'll just get a bill later. Or at least someone will.

I don't know if I'd call toll roads a necessary evil. I would certainly agree with the observation that they have become more politically palatable than increased fuel taxes. And fuel taxes are starting to get weird with the rise of electric cars anyway.

The right technical fix would be tire taxes, since every car and truck needs tires regardless of fuel type, and tires are already graded and counted for vehicle weight such that those who cause more wear on the pavement would carry more of the cost to fix it.

The problem is that some people would run their tires long past their safe lifetime and we'd see a lot more blowout/rollover accidents.

Maryland and DC are nuts about photoenforcement. I didn't like driving in that area to begin with, and that element just makes it so much worse.
 
#9 ·
I would certainly agree with the observation that they [toll roads] have become more politically palatable than increased fuel taxes. And fuel taxes are starting to get weird with the rise of electric cars anyway.

The right technical fix would be tire taxes, since every car and truck needs tires regardless of fuel type, and tires are already graded and counted for vehicle weight such that those who cause more wear on the pavement would carry more of the cost to fix it.

The problem is that some people would run their tires long past their safe lifetime and we'd see a lot more blowout/rollover accidents.
In Oregon a while back they proposed taxing hybrids and electrics with surcharges to the registration fees. It died because it was labelled an "SUV subsidy tax" by those opposed to it, and they could never even get to the point of having a reasonable dialog about how hybrids and electrics should cover the cost of road maintenance.

They now have a voluntary program where hybrids and electrics can alternatively pay by the mile, rather than a flat registration fee. You have to agree to a monitoring device on you vehicle. Problem is, at average miles driven, it's more expensive than the flat fee, and there are few takers.

What it might end up being (for plug-ins, anyway) is a tax on the electric power delivered to the car from your home or public charger. The technology already exists for the system to know it's a car that's being charged, and to meter how much is delivered. All it needs is the political will.

We'll all be affected by this someday. And Subaru is positioned to take advantage of Toyota's electric technology here, given Toyota's 10% stake in the company. But for now, it appears Subaru isn't pushing that hard here - how many hybrid Crosstreks have we really seen out there, and they've been offered for what, two years now?
 
#8 ·
Cash tolling disappeared years ago in Oz. All transponders down here. The fines are large to for not having paid. You can by a toll online if you are a irregular user. $40 for a speeding fine that's insanely cheap. Speeding by less than 10kph (6.21mph) $194 where I come from. Speed cameras (fixed and mobile) are set to less than 10kph over.
 
#27 ·
Wow, that's crazy!

Around here (Northern and Eastern VA) if you aren't going 5-10MPH over the limit you get run off the road by everyone going 15-20 over weaving thru traffic. At +20 (or 80MPH whichever comes first) is automatic reckless driving in VA but I rarely see people stopped. I think they just can't keep up.
 
#12 ·
I use the Oklahoma turnpike system regularly. For the areas it covers, it is a big time saver. For example, try driving old US 66 from OKC to Tulsa. That would take at least 4 to 5 hours with all the little towns you would have to crawl through.

The pikepass system with it's RF-ID tag is efficient (you can drive through the tollbooth at 70 mph), although they have one old toll booth south of Chickasha that requires you to slow to 30 mph to drive through the reader. The pikepass itself is very small and thin, and works fine stuck in the dark dotted area of my windshield. It doesn't affect the EyeSight system at all.

I ran into the same issue as the OP with the Dallas Tollway system. Took them 2 years (!) to find my wife by her tag number when she drove on the North Dallas Tollway. I think the bill was for $7.
 
#14 ·
To the OP: E470 around the east half of Denver relies on camers to take pictures of your license plates. They have them mounted every couple of miles and each section is named for billing purposes. Someone went through and their tags got confused with yours. They mail the bills out about 30 days after the fact.

My trick to avoid E470 tolls is to live in KS, which doesn't require a front tag, and attach my Thule bike rack on the back. The cameras don't haveva chance. I've only done that a couple of times, when I moved my daughter to and from college, but it did save me some insane tolls.
 
#16 ·
To the OP: E470 around the east half of Denver relies on camers to take pictures of your license plates. They have them mounted every couple of miles and each section is named for billing purposes.
Yep... then someone has to look at the pictures and read (or guess) what the tag number is, type it into the system (maybe making an error), then mail out a paper bill (to someone), and man the phones to handle disputes.

This seems ridiculously inefficient. How about raising the already-imposed tax on fuel enough to actually cover the costs it was designed to cover in the first place, so the extra equipment, infrastructure, and inconvenience for collecting tolls isn't necessary? No muss, no fuss.

As someone already noted, I'm not getting a break in the road-use tax I already pay on fuel when I'm also explicitly paying to use a road.

Why is I-44 in Oklahoma a toll road while I-40 and I-35 are not? If I had to use toll roads regularly, I'd probably get a transponder ("PikePass" in OK) just as a matter of practicality. Back when the PikePass tag was a plastic box velcroed onto the windshield, my daughter and her boyfriend took her car with his transponder on a trip; he later got a nastygram from the turnpike authority because the transponder didn't match the license plate. Why do they care as long as its use was authorized and the toll gets paid? Also, it's a bit irksome that each regional fiefdom has its own system (with duplicated accounting systems and other infrastructure) incompatible with others - our toll tags won't work on the east coast and vice-versa, for instance, and probably not on E470 in Denver, either.

Someone went through and their tags got confused with yours. They mail the bills out about 30 days after the fact.
Yep. That's exactly what happened. I mentioned it to a friend yesterday and she said the same thing had happened to her. Got a bill for a car that had never been on E470; she called them and said "nope".

My trick to avoid E470 tolls is to live in KS, which doesn't require a front tag, and attach my Thule bike rack on the back. The cameras don't haveva chance. I've only done that a couple of times, when I moved my daughter to and from college, but it did save me some insane tolls.
We don't have front tags here, either. That's an interesting "gotcha" to the system.
 
#28 ·
SVX? I hadn't heard of that until now.

I'm glad I don't have one of those, a number of roads here are going EZ-Pass Only and the license-plate mounted EZ-Pass is incompatible with the HOV EZ-Pass Flex system (without the Flex-pass you would get a bill thru the nose as a single-driver, the EZ-Pass Flex is only available in MD/VA as an interior windshield-mount)
 
#22 ·
One aspect of toll tags is the ease that a system could be implemented, at least technically, like in this hypothetical letter:

"Your vehicle was detected on the Trollcentral Tollway passing mile 36.2 on 01/23/2019 at 10:36:52 AM and mile 45.1 on 01/23/2019 at 10:44:07 AM. This indicates your vehicle was traveling at an average speed of 73.6 MPH, which is in excess of the posted speed limit of 70 MPH.

For your convenience, the fine of $150.00 plus a 3% credit-card handling fee of $4.50 will be charged to your TrollTag account so you need do nothing if you wish to plead guilty. If you wish to enter a plea other than guilty, you must arrange for a court date by calling 123 666-4578 before 10:45 AM on 02/06/2019.

Thank you for your participation in the TrollTag program. Have a nice day and please drive carefully!"

For the reasoning why this would work, see the Theorem of the Mean Policeman, a 14-minute calculus lesson explaining the Mean Value Theorem told in a folksy way (by a narrator with a very thick southern drawl) in 1966.

You could probably fight something like this using arguments similar to those used for speed-camera tickets, but here there is little or no need for additional hardware and they already have access to a method of payment. Why make it so easy it's tempting to try?
 
#23 ·
One aspect of toll tags is the ease that a system could be implemented, at least technically, like in this hypothetical letter:



"Your vehicle was detected on the Trollcentral Tollway passing mile 36.2 on 01/23/2019 at 10:36:52 AM and mile 45.1 on 01/23/2019 at 10:44:07 AM. This indicates your vehicle was traveling at an average speed of 73.6 MPH, which is in excess of the posted speed limit of 70 MPH.



For your convenience, the fine of $150.00 plus a 3% credit-card handling fee of $4.50 will be charged to your TrollTag account so you need do nothing if you wish to plead guilty. If you wish to enter a plea other than guilty, you must arrange for a court date by calling 123 666-4578 before 10:45 AM on 02/06/2019.



Thank you for your participation in the TrollTag program. Have a nice day and please drive carefully!"



For the reasoning why this would work, see the Theorem of the Mean Policeman, a 14-minute calculus lesson explaining the Mean Value Theorem told in a folksy way (by a narrator with a very thick southern drawl) in 1966. Theorem of the Mean Policeman



You could probably fight something like this using arguments similar to those used for speed-camera tickets, but here there is little or no need for additional hardware and they already have access to a method of payment. Why make it so easy it's tempting to try?


Law enforcement in NY wanted to use the toll data to able to give out tickets. The thruway and DOT resisted because they knew people would not adopt this new tech (new back in late 80s early 99s).




Bill P. Albany area NY 2016 2.5 Silver Eyesight
 
#25 ·
For the OP post: The OCR readers generally need a reflective material on the license plate to read the numbers on the plate. Some people have been putting tape or paint on the plates to make the OCR readers come up with a different number. Google tries to remove web site post that tell you how to do this. One other problem is that some license plates (like New York) use cheap paint, and the paint flakes off making the number change.

You can find OCR readers on toll booths for people skipping tolls. There are also OCR camera under bridges for home land security for tracking. Some police agencies have OCR readers on the trunks of their car. And, of course there are some on red light cameras.

The NYS Thruway did at one time issue tickets for drivers who got to toll booth too quickly. But, they lost in court because the 6th amendment states that the accused has the right to face their accuser. Same rule applies to red light cameras, but right now the courts are ignoring it.

Some cities and states have also reduced the timing of red lights. The Federal standard is 1 second for every 10 mph. Some states like New York have changed the timing on some (but not all) traffic lights. 55 mph zones are suppose to be 5.5 seconds, but NY State has reduced many of them to 4.0 seconds. Some cities have reduced the 30mph lights from 3.0 seconds to 2.1 seconds. The objective is to have people unknowingly think they can make the yellow light, but it turns red before they get there. This has provided NY state with a lot more ticket revenue. Some cities like Albany NY have recently put up cameras on some of the lights for this purpose. Sad that money comes before safety.
 
#31 ·
The Sixth Amendment (Confrontation Clause) does not apply to non-criminal matters ("“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right … to be confronted with the witnesses against him …”). In many states traffic violations are civil violations, not criminal offenses (fwiw).
 
#26 ·
As much as it pains me to give Texas credit for doing anything right [ ;) ]........

I hate toll roads and avoid them whenever practical.

Any questions about my feelings on this topic? At least it feels better after a good rant. :)
I will admit that Oklahoma has one outstanding feature Texas does not..........
A great state to the south of it.:grin2:

And I agree with your dislike for toll roads, but when I'm heading north to anywhere above Austin (sometimes to the Winstar in OK), the pleasure of passing Austin, and not even seeing it, at an average of 80 mph on toll road 130 always wins out over going through it at an average of "not very fast" and sometimes 0 mph on I35.

The ONLY downside is receiving the $31 bill in the mail (for the trip both ways) a few weeks later, but that pain is fleeting. I save much more than that each time I do my own Outback maintainence instead of going to the stealership.

Actually a 2nd downside is having to merge back with the "common folk" on I35 when the toll road ends. A bit of culture shock when you have to slow down to 65, and get back to construction zones and "idiots" again.

The scenery on the drive along toll road 130 is like seeing a Norman Rockwell painting of America in the less crowded 1950's.
 
#32 ·
I've been thinking (yes, actually thinking rather than surfing Facebook) about the Big Brother fears I've seen mentioned on this forum and others.

1. What makes anyone think that the guvmint even cares about them or their movements. You're not that special to justify the time and expense to monitor your every move, unless you've committed a serious crime like murder. In which case it would be nice to know if you went through a nearby toll plaza and can be caught more quickly using that information.

2. I've noticed the toll plazas will open more EZ-pass lanes during times of higher traffic flow, like rush hour or a sporting event. They know to do that based on the data they gather about the volume of EZ-pass use during certain times.

3. Big data is used for much more useful applications rather than tiny percent that might be used against us. Unless you are some survivalist living completely off the grid, you are already part of the system. Get a pay check or social security, use public utilities, pay taxes, use an ATM, drive just about anywhere with traffic cams, send your kids to school, use a credit or debit card, use the internet (including this forum), then you are part of the system - otherwise known as society. I know some conspiracy believers (not nuts really), and I respect their views. But, it's too late man. Big Brother has already got your number.

4. As annoying as targeted marketing is - those adds that show up here and other sites, based on what you were looking for on Amazon for example - can be blocked using free software or might even help. I found a deal on an impact wrench based on one of those. I'd rather look at tool ads rather than tampon ads. :)
 
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