6-Speed or CV?

[missin44]

First of many questions. I really like manuals but have never divern a CV tranny. Nice cost saving with manual also. However I know CV are all the rage these days. Looking for some semi objective input.

Thanks

[sbpark]

I came from an '06 Forester with the 5MT to a 2012 Outback with CVT. I don't know about the CVT being all the rage, because it does have it's drawbacks, but also has some advantages.

The CVT first off (at least in the 2010-2012, since I have not driven a 2013 with the new CVT) is somewhat lifeless and uninspiring compared to the MT. My '06 Forester X (base model) was much more responsive, quicker off the line and more fun to drive; no comparison to the CVT. However, the gearing was strange in the 5MT at least in first gear and made starting on steep grades a challenge at times (can't compare it to the 6MT in the OB though since I've never driven one. Also, the CVT is loud, and sounds like its racing and working hard, but the car really isn't going anywhere. Did I mention that the CVT is a slug? Also, the CVT is not able to tow as much as the 6MT, so take that into consideration is you plan on towing anything substantial.

With that said, I am pleased with my CVT. It does suck as far as acceleration and mileage around town is not good either, but the CVT does shine on the freeway, loves to cruise 70-75mph, and I can routinely get 29-31mpg on my 70 mile roundtrip commute to work which is 99% highway. That, in addition to the fact that I am moving to San Francisco in less than a week, makes owning the CVT over the 6MT a no brainer (would not want to be in SF with an MT!)

So it all depends on what you intend on using the car for. For the highway, road trips, long commutes, etc. the CVT is great, but falls short with get up and go and towing power. The paddle shifters are also a joke as well, and seem like more of a novelty. They also do very little for engine breaking when using them to downshift compared to a MT.

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by missin44

First of many questions. I really like manuals but have never divern a CV tranny. Nice cost saving with manual also. However I know CV are all the rage these days. Looking for some semi objective input.

Thanks

If you live in a flat place and never really tow anything the 6spd MT is workable

If you live in very steep hilly region and or tow trailers then you won't like the 6spd MT

Actually both the CVT and MT have the same tow weight ratings. The CVT and the 5spd AT in the 3.6L have heat and mountain climbing weight restrictions based on cooling capacity for the AT's. CVT is 1350lbs in 104+ outside temps combined with 5+ mile climbs - think Southern CA or NV or AZ or even highway 80 passing through Colorado and Utah in the summer months you can find those conditions. The 3.6 with 5spd AT has a 1500lb limit in 104+ temps combined with 5+ mile climbs. The MT has no cooling capacity limits so the full 2700lbs is listed.

Having said that I had the 5spd for 180,000 miles towing trailers worked great no issues clutch release bearing which is a common failure started to fail at 140,000 miles with 10% clutch left on the clutch. The 1st gear was just low enough to haul a 1700lb boat up steep boat ramps with no issues. We live in San Francisco so we have a good sense of gearing vs power etc. We test drove the 6spd MT several times did a couple of hill starts on a familiar steep hill and the new 6spd OB lugged very hard empty on the same hill our old 5spd easily could be shifted to 2nd about the time the 6spd 2010 OB stopped lugging with the go pedal smashed to the floor. Drive by wire systems - lots of emissions controls systems do seem to impact the throttle response pair that with a some what tall 1st gear and you have a dog of a car on hill starts even when its empty. 3.6L 6spd MT YES PLEASE! But Subaru doesn't offer it.

The long travel soft sprung tall suspension on the OB also kills the handling capability making it very floaty and otherwise not a car your really going to be tossing around and rowing through the gears as if your driving a sports sedan or wagon.

So the CVT was my first AT car since I can even remember. Now at 37,000 miles with enough towing miles to say that the CVT does a great job and fits the floaty - family hauling utility wagon nature really well. We have been a few places with the CVT where the 6spd would have been either smoking like crazy slipping the clutch to keep us moving forward or simply not able to go where we've gone already. A prime example of a car that really could justify a lower 1st gear and wider upper gears for the freeway use- also the 6th gear is pretty tall during several test drives we found that anything other than flat highway your never in 6th the 2.5 simply cant haul the car in 6th on anything but flat highway. More power on tap the 6spd MT would be my choice or a lower 1st gear ratio but the OB lacks both of those.

[akinneyww]

If you like driving a manual, get the manual transmission. The CVT is a good transmission, too, but I was looking for a more engaging driving experience.

I've been happy with my 2011 6MT. I test drove the CVT and found it to be just fine, but I just prefer driving a manual.

There's a gazillion reasons and all are debatable. They all have been debated, repeatedly.

There's differences in fuel economy. The differences in fuel economy are negligible in my opinion, but CVT wins here.

There's differences in complexity. The 6MT is simpler with less that can go wrong.

There's differences in the AWD. The CVT has dynamic front to back power distribution and the 6MT has a fixed full time 50/50 front/back split. I prefer the 6MT with less "intelligence" there to second guess me. I am the driver, not the car.

There's a difference in low gear response. The CVT has a torque converter. The 6MT has a clutch. With proper clutch operation, 1st gear on the 6MT works just fine off the line, even when towing, but there are those the prefer the simplicity of having a torque converter in the CVT smooth that out.

There's a difference in cost. The 6MT is less expensive to start, but may have less resale value since it is a manual. Personally, I think it ends up being a wash.

There's a difference in acceleration. The 6MT can be a bit faster off the line with the proper driver. With the CVT, you just floor it and wait for the computers to do their thing, eventually, at their leisure and discretion, not yours. Notice my bias?

Andrew

[patchelect]

I have owned many vehicles with various automatics or manual transmissions. Since the Outback was going to be my wires car, and automatic was the only option. I was hedgy on the CVT only because I had never owned one. I was familiar with the technology from my experience in the electric motor world but had no real knowledge about automotive units. That said, I also realized that Subaru didn't just throw the unit on the car last week. I believe they are probably the manufacturer with the longest number of years of experience with the units. Having owned it now for use over a year and 21K in all types of driving I can say that I am completely used to it and its quirks, which I find are very few. I am a bit more cautious when I want to pass on a narrow road but that's as much for lack of engine as the transmission.

And when I'm stuck in really creepy crawly traffic, I love anything that's automatic! Feathering clutches went out of favor with me back in 1975! My Miata and I have fun, but if I know I'm going to be in traffic like that, I'd much rather be in the Subaru~

And if I were in the market for another Subie, I wouldn't think twice about getting another CVT.

[missin44]

It's been many years since I've driven a 4 cyl with an automatic. My experiance has been the in the areas that I drive, mountains of VA, WV and CO a 4cyl/auto works too hard and MPG's suffer as a result. Maybe things have changed. Only about 10% of my driving is in heavy traffic. I do very little towing and if I do it's only to the landfill or to Lowes for lumber, no long distance stuff. Since I tend to keep my cars for at least 10 years resale isn't a big factor, but purchase price is. I'm looking for a car thats going to do 2 things:

1. Give best preformance/mpg's in the mountains.
2. Give best preformance in handling snow since it does get used quite a bit of use in Colorado.

Thanks Again

[vr4Legacy]

Originally Posted by missin44

It's been many years since I've driven a 4 cyl with an automatic. My experiance has been the in the areas that I drive, mountains of VA, WV and CO a 4cyl/auto works too hard and MPG's suffer as a result. Maybe things have changed. Only about 10% of my driving is in heavy traffic. I do very little towing and if I do it's only to the landfill or to Lowes for lumber, no long distance stuff. Since I tend to keep my cars for at least 10 years resale isn't a big factor, but purchase price is. I'm looking for a car thats going to do 2 things:

1. Give best preformance/mpg's in the mountains.
2. Give best preformance in handling snow since it does get used quite a bit of use in Colorado.

Thanks Again

IMHO, the CVT will get you better mileage in the mountains. I live in WV and drive through many hills. The CVT has the advantage because it effectively has an infinite range of gears, so it can adapt well to different incllines and keep the revs at the best range for MPG and power.

As for best handling in snow, there are arguments both ways. The MT is "dumb" in that it keeps the power consistent so a good driver can always know what to expect and adapt appropriately.

The AT is "intelligent" in that it will vary the power front to back and side to side to keep the car straight. It will keep you straight if you steer straight and stop you in a straight line. It's less predictable to sudden driver input.

I got the CVT because it's my wife's DD, period. I don't find the CVT any less "inspiring" to drive than any other 3000+lb 4cyl AT. If anything I find it a better drive because it shifts smoother and gets me the power I need without any hard shifts.

HOWEVER, I love the feel of a clutch and shifting, the AT in no ways replicates that. I dearly miss my MT and am on the lookout for a MT for my own DD solely to have 5 gears and a clutch,period. If you want a MT and enjoy driving a MT, no AT is going to fit the bill.

[subiesailor]

Originally Posted by vr4Legacy

IMHO, the CVT will get you better mileage in the mountains. I live in WV and drive through many hills. The CVT has the advantage because it effectively has an infinite range of gears, so it can adapt well to different incllines and keep the revs at the best range for MPG and power.

As for best handling in snow, there are arguments both ways. The MT is "dumb" in that it keeps the power consistent so a good driver can always know what to expect and adapt appropriately.

The AT is "intelligent" in that it will vary the power front to back and side to side to keep the car straight. It will keep you straight if you steer straight and stop you in a straight line. It's less predictable to sudden driver input.

I got the CVT because it's my wife's DD, period. I don't find the CVT any less "inspiring" to drive than any other 3000+lb 4cyl AT. If anything I find it a better drive because it shifts smoother and gets me the power I need without any hard shifts.

HOWEVER, I love the feel of a clutch and shifting, the AT in no ways replicates that. I dearly miss my MT and am on the lookout for a MT for my own DD solely to have 5 gears and a clutch,period. If you want a MT and enjoy driving a MT, no AT is going to fit the bill.

^ He is correct you can't even begin to compare the old fixed gear AT's of the past with the new CVT. The MT were far superior to the old 4spd or even the current 5spd AT sold in the 3.6 when it comes to the right gear at the right time etc - but the CVT puts even the most active MT driver to shame when it comes to the proper gear ratio for the given moment. Hands down from a MT car guy the CVT is the first AT I've had in a car the CVT blows the doors off any AT you have ever had regarding the right gear ratio and being in the power band for the 2.5. No way possible to work the 6spd MT enough to match the CVT in how active it is regarding gear ratio changes. Given how active the CVT is in gear ratio changing it is actually quite easy to forget you only have 170hp up front. Seriously

If I were buying a 3rd Subaru today and it were a Forester or OB the CVT would be my top choice given the 6spd MT simply lacks hill climbing ability in a vehicle that may actually get used to climb hills etc. If I were getting a Impreza wagon I would get a MT given the new Impreza is far far SUPERIOR in the road handling department and would actually be fun to drive in MT format.

[4wheeldog]

I have been driving for 44 years, and the OB is only the second AT vehicle I have owned. When I went to test drive, I was heavily biased toward getting a manual. But I drove them both.......And, in spite of perhaps giving up a minor amount of raw acceleration, the CVT is better at several things. It is quieter and more relaxed, given that the ultimate gearing is up to 30% taller. It gets better mileage.......I actually tried to improve on the CVT's brain, using the paddle shifters, and came away convinced it does a better job than I do........And I am pretty damned good at extracting miles from gallons with a manual.
So, if you really feel the need to stir the gears, enjoy the manual. If you need to extract the last bit of performance from the motor, get the manual. But, for my money, the CVT is the best compromise.

[Looby]

Originally Posted by subiesailor

... but the CVT puts even the most active MT driver to shame
when it comes to the proper gear ratio for the given moment.

Subaru of Germany disagrees. Their published 0-100 km/h E.T.s are:

2.5i 6MT: 9.6 sec.

2.5i CVT: 10.4 sec. (Ohhh ...better watch your back, Don Garlits!)

Regarding mpg, the CVT wins (on paper), but it'll take many years
to recover the additional $1000 for the CVT option.

OTOH, the CVT is available with a far wider range of trim options.
For example, if you want a 6MT with leather, you're out of luck --
even a 6MT w moonroof is (nearly?) impossible to find after 2011.

FWIW, my 2011 6MT is just fine. No drivability issues at all
(once you get used to the tall 5th and ultra-tall 6th gears).

..drive it like a 4-speed MT -- with two overdrives,

Looby