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Locked front differential???

24K views 48 replies 21 participants last post by  MikeC5 
#1 ·
I did the 30k differential fluid change on my 2013 outback 2.5i yesterday while using the manual as well as information from http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...-2011-2-5i-cvt-differential-fluid-change.html. The rear was simple and took no time at all. The front, took a bit more time, but I got it done. I bought 3 quarts of Mobile 75w-90 as recommended by some here. The rear took almost 1.1 than the .8 the manual called for. That left me with 1.9 quarts which I used for the front, although once I put it all in there it seemed like it needed more even thought the manual calls for 1.4-1.6 quarts. I say this because it did not overflow from the filler plug

My mistake was that I did not measure how much came out of it. I also felt safe driving it considering that I put almost 2 quarts in there. I am also confident that I found the correct drain and filler plugs for the front.

Driving today about 10 miles since the fluid flush at 55mph (on my way to get more fluid) the car's wheels completely locked up almost as if I had stomped on the brakes myself. Now in R, D, N, or M the car won't move nor can I push it (which I had to tow it home). The "Brake" light on the dash did come on after the incident but has gone away since then. The "AWD" comes on for a split of a second after turning on the car.

I am going to jack up the car tomorrow but I suspect it is the front differential that is "locking" the car from moving.

My preliminary questions are;
Is it possible that I locked up the transmission some how (not sure how these two things are connected?
Did I lock up the gears in the front differential from not using enough fluid?
Is there a safety feature that actuates the parking brakes in the event there is not enough oil or fluid in places that are important?
I am at 32k miles and still under warranty but not sure how the dealer will respond when I tell them I did the differential service myself.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
 
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#3 ·
It is *possible* for a differential to 'lock up' the wheels. Lets not forget that only the upper inch or so of lube actually touches the bearings. Hence, your bearings may be totally dry.

I am not sure how the brake-light would be involved with differential fluid. I am not aware of any connection between them.
 
#4 ·
thank you brucep. This makes sense, perhaps the bearings are no good now. I still am not sure why the brake light was on after that until I tuned the car off. I think a front differential rebuild might be the outcome here. I did jack up the rear and the wheels spin fine, the front spin about 1/4 and lock (either direction). I will add more gear oil and see if that perhaps "unsticks" what ever might be stuck, if not broken and than find a local reputable shop nearby to take a look at it. I will keep updating this post in case this were to happen to anyone else on here.
 
#5 ·
I still am not sure why the brake light was on after that until I tuned the car off.
Your front wheels locked up and the rear did not, they also locked up when the brakes were not applied. The ABS computer saw all sorts of things happening that shouldn't have been happening and this is likely why the light came on.

For what it's worth, I've seen the service information claim a certain amount of fluid goes into the diffs, but it often turns out that a different amount of fluid actually goes into them.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Please confirm filler over flow plug

I just added an additional 1qrt on top of the previous 2 on my 13' outback 2.5i cvt. No signs of leaking anywhere but the only thing that has come out of the overflow drain is very dirty old fluid, there is yet new fluid to come out.

Can someone confirm that I am putting fluid in the correct filler plug and I opened the correct overflow drain?

In the manual it says that you open the overflow and once there is a steady stream of the fluid coming out than you are done. Based on this I should have had enough fluid almost 1qrt ago.

View image: SAM 2408


http://s12.postimg.org/bmunljdh9/SAM_2410.jpg
 
#10 ·
X2. Based on the description it sounds like you:

1) Drained the differential
2) Added differential oil to the CVT

Both are really BAD. Hopefully, you just destroyed the differential and the CVT can still be saved with a couple of fluid flushes / changes (to remove any differential oil you put in).

You should have your car taken to a dealer.

:surprise:
 
#14 ·
Just read this and OMG! I don't know what I would be thinking if I were in your boots... Sorry to hear this happened. I'm also not surprised this happened, the way the thing is designed is almost a recipe for this sort of accidental mistake (half the reason I am rethinking doing this myself).

If you did add gear oil to the CVT, the front diff is toast. You might be able to find someone to change the bearings and it might work.... CVT with incorrect fluid.... Man. I don't want to say it's bad but from what I heard, these CVTs are a finicky component. Best of Luck!

Out of curiosity, is the Subie towed to the same dealer who quoted you 140 for each diff fill (and said it is important)?
 
#15 ·
I did the same job and for all the same reasons. I wasn't 100 percent sure on the front diff fill either. After looking at pictures and the FSM, I was pretty sure I found the front fill. I then kept the drain plug out and pumped a bit of gear oil into the hole. Once that oil started coming out the diff drain hole, I was pretty confident I had it right. . if looking at the manual, I though the CVT fill hole was down at the bottom side of the car on the tranny.
 
#17 ·
I'm so sorry to hear what has happened. It's a lesson to remember that you need to know what you're doing, before doing it. When I was younger I always worked on my old cars, it was easy back then and all you needed was a few tools. Todays cars are so complex that the term no user serviceable parts actually is more fitting because even the dealer mechanic has to scratch their heads from time to time. I don't even know if I'd feel comfortable replacing the spark plugs and wires anymore because if you get the wrong part you could raise cain with the computer system.
Hopefully you haven't damaged anything too bad.
 
#20 ·
I am so sorry to hear about your situation. :-(

There are not many shops equipped nor skilled to rebuild a CVT transxle. Most shops can bolt-in a different unit.

Since the differential and CVT share the same metal case (transaxle)... as you consider your options, also think about simply installing a used unit instead of paying the labor to attempt a rebuild.
 
#21 ·
Wow, that sucks! I hope it doesn't cost you too much money and they can save the CVT.
For the 30k fluid change argument, I changed my Dad's 2012 3.6r's diff fluid at 30k (right after he bought it). The old fluid looked pretty bad (sludgy) and there was creamy stuff on the drain plug magnets. I felt pretty good about having changed it.
 
#22 ·
Gear oil is heavy to start with. Well used gear oil gets dark. Contaminated gear oil via deep water crossing is a different story. You make the call per your use abuse. In CA were we are in a drought and I tow at least one a month every 60k for the last 230000 miles between two different Subarus the gear oil was fine but ready for replacement at 60k.

Drive through flooded roads etc you should do it every yr after the flood season is over.
 
#24 ·
Gear oil is heavy to start with. Well used gear oil gets dark. Contaminated gear oil via deep water crossing is a different story. You make the call per your use abuse. In CA were we are in a drought and I tow at least one a month every 60k for the last 230000 miles between two different Subarus the gear oil was fine but ready for replacement at 60k.

Drive through flooded roads etc you should do it every yr after the flood season is over.




So 60k miles is a number you picked?
 
#25 ·
My experience is that front and rear diff.'s ARE READY for a fluid change after the first 30k miles. I think I even changed mine at about 20k in my '06', and the fluid in both diff.'s was very dirty/discolored and almost metallic-grey in color (presumably due to break-in). At 60k when I changed them again, the fluid was still clean.

I would say DEFINITELY change the front/rear diff. fluids after the first 30k. It's cheap/easy to do.
 
#26 ·
Drain the oil from the tranny and fill with correct oil. Fill diff with correct oil. Take it to the dealer and tell them to fix it. Its under warranty. I purchased a maintenance manual such as you can....I got a crappy pdf file and no book is available from Subaru...just this PDF deal. And it is a piece of crap. Unclear so that I could not even change the cabin air filter properly because they state simply "remove all bolts" but that does not solve a problem...and so I broke a pin on the glove box...it is actually described here how to change it but I found it too late....still this should be in the manual. And for the record, I am not a novice mechanic. I can fix almost anything and have worked on every vehicle imaginable over the last 59 years....

The Subaru maintenance manual sucks and it is at least as liable to be the fault as you are. Add very poor translation and incomplete details and bang you get plugs mixed up on what should be a clear and easy job. Not the customers fault...this is Fuji Heavy Industry fault. Dont suck it up.

This is a 2013 under warranty. I looked up the job in my 2009 pdf manual. It is confusing and they should pay for repairs. Subaru should also make available hard copy fully illustrated shop manuals like most car manufactures do. remove all the bolts my azz...:) I would not feel one bit guilty for just dumping this on Subaru...they don't need to overcharge for routine service of gear cases. This should be clear and concise and well marked where confusion is possible. Not your fault IMHO.
 
#28 ·
The fluid I took out was very dark and sluggish from both differentials so it appeared it needed a flush. We have driven the car from Illinois to California every Christmas since 2013 (the only time we see family during our school's winter break) otherwise we only drive about 50 miles per week in town and I would have hold off until 40-50k to do the diff service.

The diagram in the manual in deed is hard to follow let alone it says nothing about where to find what they call the "filler plug." However, it was my fault for doing the job even thought I was confident I had the right filler plug.

The subbie is off to a reputable shop nearby where they will flush the CVT and add gear oil in the front diff while also examining if there is anything stuck or broken. They have worked on several Gen 4 subbies. The shop is basically going to examine if anything is stuck or broken before I get it towed to the dealer. If it is something minor, such as bearings in the front diff, than I might let them work on it.

A flat bet tow truck came to pick it up and I told him the front wheels will not move, he laughed and said they will move if you put it in neutral . . . so ended up dragging the car up the flat bed since the front wheels did not roll. I called the shop to let them know of this issue in case the tow truck driver ends up creating more damage to the front diff or CVT.

Like I mentioned before, the front wheels rotate only about 90 degrees each direction and when the car is turned "on" putting it in drive, reverse, or neutral the car remains put and there is no sign of transmission engaging. I suspect that the addition of gear oil into the CVT is what either got it stuck or ended up breaking something inside.

Worst part is, I had no choice but to tell my pregnant wife what was happening with the car last night. I am hoping these new financial stress does not cause any problems in our 1st trimester.
 
#32 ·
Not to be the bearer of bad news but be prepared for it. Its only a car but this has potential to be a very costly mistake. Full lockup the only thing I can think of is the torque converter in the AT having seezed up. Diffs generally break and fail but typically do not prevent tires from turning even when run dry. They also get really loud as they are run dry which it doesnt sound like you heard a noisy dry diff. Gear oil is pretty amazing stuff a drained diff still is coated in a good coating of lube and can be run pretty far before a failure. The gear oil is very different than the AT fluid I cant help but think it caused some type of lock up in the AT.

Not what you want to hear but it is what it is. Hope you get some good news.
 
#30 ·
This is a 2013 under warranty. I looked up the job in my 2009 pdf manual. It is confusing and they should pay for repairs. Subaru should also make available hard copy fully illustrated shop manuals like most car manufactures do. remove all the bolts my azz...:-) I would not feel one bit guilty for just dumping this on Subaru...they don't need to overcharge for routine service of gear cases. This should be clear and concise and well marked where confusion is possible. Not your fault IMHO.[/QUOTE said:
LOL
So I guess Subaru should warranty anyone's mistake?
I understand you didn't wanna pay for a service because the price is too high, but now what is the price on the front diff rebuild or new transmission?
Hope it's not that bad for the OP, but wanting Subaru to eat the bullet on something they didn't do is insane.
 
#33 ·
I'll start responding here instead of the other thread where I posted a response pretty similar to what others here have outlined: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...differential-fluid-change-25.html#post2794961

I doubt the transmission caused the grinding halt. A locked up torque converter at 55 MPH is "no issue", in fact the lockup clutch should kick in at steady driving at those speeds anyhow. It also wouldn't allow the engine to idle after this, since it would prevent the crankshaft from moving.

I'm not saying the CVT unit is unharmed, but I don't think it caused what happened to you. I'm thinking what caused this was the differential... but what's also unknown is what ripple effects it might have had. I.e. did the CVT got away unharmed? If it is unharmed and not in need of replacement it will need a thorough flush for sure, and proper levels of the right fluid back in, multiple times to cycle out all the gear oil.

A shop might be able to use a boroscope up the front diff drain plug hole or down the proper fill hole to look for mechanical damage without disassembly.

Here's to hoping that it's a "simple" differential replacement, with a manageable cost. I really empathize with your situation.

As for the person who suggested this is a warranty claim - that's "creative" - I'll give it that. I personally use the factory repair manual extensively, but I do so at my own risk, knowing that the intended audience is not the consumer, but professional technicians/mechanics. I did not find the content confusing for what I've needed to so so far (including differential and CVT fluid exchange). The hardest part is navigating it, once you find what you're looking for it's been fine for my purposes. I strongly prefer to be an honest customer as what comes around goes around. Relentless in my pursuit of deals and what I believe I'm owned, sure. Pushy, at times when I feel it's needed. But I want to be honest at all times, even when dealing with dealerships.
 
#35 ·
So the shop I took it too felt uncomfortable working with anything related to the CVT after getting diagrams e-mailed from Subaru. They asked me to come pick it up and they would no charge me what they spent on time but they could not go further with flushing the gear oil out of the CVT. I asked them to call their engine/trans rebuilder shop and ask if they could work on it so they did and the response was that they do not have the specialized tools required to rebuild the CVT if need be. After calling a few places this morning it is clear that no shop in this small town is willing to work on the diff or trans. I got it towed this morning to the nearest dealer and I was told that it will be likely a CVT issue. I was also told by the service manager that Subaru does not let them rebuild the newer trans due to lack of training and that how they fix the problem is by purchasing a trans.

Used trans (not guaranteed to find one certified) = $4,200 w/ labor warranty 1yr
New trans = $7200 w/ labor warranty 3yrs

If the front diff is stuck or broken, it will also need replacing. We still owe $17k on it so not sure what is the best option if any, but the insurance company will not pay for it as we do not have such option.

Looking into other options at this point since $4,200 is more than we can afford (hence why I did the maintenance myself in the first place). For now, we might have to purchase an old car to get around town when needed until we can afford the cost for the outback.
 
#39 ·
used transmissions can be found for $1,700 and installed for $500 (even less actually) - get it done somewhere else for $2,200 and save $2,000.
Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

That's the problem, no shop nearby wants to take the task of doing it. I'm afraid to put up a craigslist add for an indie mechanic. I will continue looking for shops that can do the job and want to do it and will post in update here in the next few days.
 
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