2005-2009 Ghostwalking/abnormal winter handling fixes

['05 Outback 2.5i]

Originally Posted by Bimmer

Yes, of course, the RalliTek springs are stiffer, but they still compress!

Well obviously, but I would have thought that it would have been minimal with the RalliTek springs and what I'd consider a 'light' load (200 lbs).

Originally Posted by Bimmer

So, adding 200lbs should compress the rear suspension at least 1/4".

Okay, if that's accurate, that's about what I'd expect, however...

Originally Posted by Bimmer

It's not a HUGE difference (the change in ride height is not even noticeable), but it does seem to have been enough to change the rear toe a bit. Unloaded the rear toe was -0.05° left and 0.00° right, and loaded it was +0.11° and +0.17°.

I'm not sure how big a problem 0.16-0.17° change is, but note that Subaru's alignment spec tolerance is only ± 0.065°, and adding only 200lbs ballast changed the alignment more than double that.

I was really hoping that 1/4" of suspension sag wouldn't be translating to a change in toe of more than double alignment window, that seems pretty extreme, and just continues to support the design issues Subaru has saddled owners with..

[asd]

FWIW, I did the rear alignment to zero toe with 200lbs of water in the back, and since then I have had multiple trips back and forth to the mountains loaded with gear on roads so slick you could barely walk on them. And this is with the stock all-season tires.

No issues with GW, and from what I've read those are the absolutely ideal conditions for it to occur. Not that I had any GW before, but just wanted to submit a data point.

[Bimmer]

Originally Posted by '05 Outback2.5i

I was really hoping that 1/4" of suspension sag wouldn't be translating to a change in toe of more than double alignment window, that seems pretty extreme, and just continues to support the design issues Subaru has saddled owners with..

Well, keep in mind that we're only talking 1/10ths of degrees here... Putting a fat person in one of the seats probably changes things a 1/10th or two, and just filling up the gas tank is probably worth several 1/100ths.

Of course, it would be nice if the toe would stay constant as the suspension compresses, but Subaru probably thought that there were handling advantages to be had by letting it change (this looks like passive 4-wheel-steering geometry to me), or maybe they just botched the Outback's suspension geometry when they converted it from the Legacy (probably).


I think for most of us rear toe is a quesion of compromise.

IMHO, it's a mistake to align the car when totally empty, because it's never going to be driven empty (the driver weighs something).

If you align it lightly loaded, then you'll wind up with some negative toe when it's empty and some positive toe when it's heavily loaded. This is probably ideal.

If you do a lot of hauling or you're really worried about ghost-walking, then maybe you want to align it with 400lbs. or more in the rear, understanding that you'll have significant negative toe when the car is unloaded.

Good luck!

Bimmer

[roader]

asd wrote:
FWIW, I did the rear alignment to zero toe with 200lbs of water in the back, and since then I have had multiple trips back and forth to the mountains loaded with gear on roads so slick you could barely walk on them. And this is with the stock all-season tires.

No issues with GW, and from what I've read those are the absolutely ideal conditions for it to occur. Not that I had any GW before, but just wanted to submit a data point.

Potentially a valuable data point, asd. Those conditions indeed are ideal ghostwalking conditions. Is your vehicle a 2005 - 2009 Outback?

If it is, and you've not had any ghostwalking issues (under the same conditions, I assume) before, it raises the question as to why some '05 - '09s have the problem and some do not. Or is my assumption incorrect?

Thanks Bimmer for clarifying whether your discussion was aimed at the ghostwalking problem or a personal handling preference.

Cheers.

[OhBe1]

Another non-ghostwalker here. Closest I've had to that effect was when new from the dealer, with lots of understeer, and yet with the feeling it was going to swap ends when pushed in corners, in the dry, unladen.
Turns out the dealer had higher pressures in the rear. Fixed that, and went after the understeer, first with LGT rear bar (noticeable improvement), then with JDM 20mm hollow. Also maxed front camber & set toe at 0.05 deg in al around, no load. And added GY TT tires. Understeer down to acceptable levels.

Directional stability is still not that great, at highway speed. Looking at adding front caster, but rear still needs work. At 80 000, shocks need replacement.

[Seabass]

My experience was in the rain with 500lbs of crap in the back. This was on the old stock rear shocks. It started pouring and next thing I know in a straight line the back starts getting twitchy going back and forth like it wants to swing out. It was made much worse by gusty wind. I stopped at a gas station and could see a huge difference in toe front to back. I could also see where the tires were getting worn a bit from the excessive toe. ie scarring from the road at a slightly different angle from the tire tread. An alignment with weight and the KYBs in back seem to have fixed it. I had similar conditions a week ago and no twitchiness in back.

In 3 weeks I'll be testing it out in some interesting conditions with a 3k lbs trailer being towed...

[bsevic]

Another option that I know won't work for everyone is to purchase a Legacy. I owned a 2005 Outback Sedan that was a GW canadidate (I made it better with tires, alignment and upgrade rear swaybar, but I never trusted the car). I sold the car last spring and purchased a 2009 Subaru Legacy SE. Now this is what driving a Subaru in the winter is all about!!! This weekend beens the perfect weekend for black ice, snow and blowing snow, along with below zero temps. Was out yesterday and today, with no issues at all. Going down the highway when everyone was going 45, I had no issue passing and get around other cars (don't like driving in a pack when its slippery out). This car is stable and can be driven with confidence. In my 2005 Outback it would have been two hands on the wheel and watch everyone pass me. I never would let my Wife or Daughters drive the 2005 Outback when conditions were like they are this weekend. With the Legacy I have no concerns at all in how the car handles.. I know its not a wagon or an Outback but for me it made sense having a car that was secure and stable in the Western MI winters.

[roader]

bsevic wrote:
Another option that I know won't work for everyone is to purchase a Legacy.

That's correct. The regular Legacy platform is not the one which Subaru compromised in 2005 - 2009. Although I did not know that the Legacy Outback was still offered in a sedan in 2005. Had you even replaced your '05 Outback sedan with a regular '05 Legacy sedan or wagon, you likely would have been as happy as you are now with your '09 Legacy sedan. For those though who shelled-out $35,000 for a new '05 Outback, the hit in depreciation is huge, and the angst understandably very disconcerting. There is a vast difference between what such buyers expected from Subaru and what they actually got. There's nothing worse than driving with passengers or cargo on ice in what feels like a float plane with no controls. Glad to hear your driving experience is now feeling safe and as it should be.

What can be confusing is that Subaru also put the "Outback" nameplate on the Impreza for a period of time. The ghostwalking problem though occurs on the 2005 - 2009 Legacy Outback which have the raised suspension compared to the regular 2005 - 2009 Legacy which does not.

Cheers.

[Seabass]

Yea...which leads to another option. It's more expensive than the others but will give better results IMO.

Swap to legacy KYB struts and get springs and top hats. It is more expensive because you will need to replace all 4 struts/springs/top hats. You will lose the ride height, but it will definitely get rid of the ghostwalking issues and give you a much better handling car. Obviously it is not for everyone, but is definitely another option. It is especially a good option if your current suspension is worn as it will cost no more than completely overhauling your current suspension.

[phatvw]

Originally Posted by Seabass

Yea...which leads to another option. It's more expensive than the others but will give better results IMO.

Swap to legacy KYB struts and get springs and top hats. It is more expensive because you will need to replace all 4 struts/springs/top hats. You will lose the ride height, but it will definitely get rid of the ghostwalking issues and give you a much better handling car. Obviously it is not for everyone, but is definitely another option. It is especially a good option if your current suspension is worn as it will cost no more than completely overhauling your current suspension.

Megan Racing also makes Coilover suspension for the Outback which lowers closer to LGT spec. Though I've read mixed reviews about that brand.

I wonder if the 2000-2004 Outbacks and Baja trucks with jacked up aftermarket suspensions would have the GW issue too? The multi-link system looks very similar across all these model years, so if its just because the 2005 Outback is jacked up from the factory, you'd figure that all these folks modifying their cars would have similar issues.