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My timing marks are OFF

25K views 17 replies 10 participants last post by  uglymoney 
#1 ·
Hi,

Several years ago I had a shop replaced my timing belt. Today I opened it up and found the timing marks are off!

I attached 3 pictures to show the crankshaft and left and right cams.

I don't think this is normal or acceptable work, but the car drives OK. I would like to know why this happens?

And more importantly, what would be the damage to the engine over several years of driving with situations like this?

Thanks for your help!
 

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#2 ·
bike2work,

If the car is running fine with no issues, then the timing is correct, and you have nothing to worry about.

I do have to say that from the two different colored marks on the timing belt and the marks on the gears and cases, that it is a very confusing mess.

When the times comes to do the next timing belt, be sure to go OEM and you'll see a lot less confusion,because there will only be one set of marks on the belt.
 
#3 ·
Once the belt is installed and the engine has been ran, the marks won't line up for many revolutions.

Unless there is a problem with the timing where you are experiencing problems, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.
 
#4 ·
Thank you gbhrps and Logie_OBXT for your replies!

I made those marks today in case I want to use old belt (b/c it is only like 60k miles). Say the red marks are what I would like them to be lined up with the mark on the sprockets. The white marks on the cams are where the sprocket marks are but they are supposed to be where the red marks are.

I did timing belt change on my wife's Toyota (it was never done after we bought it), those marks lined up pretty good. Is this common for Subaru to be off a little (looks like more than 1 tooth)?
 
#5 ·
Simply DO NOT reuse that belt and stop worrying that the timing might be off a mark now. The marks will basically line up when you align it correctly. They will not be off more than a tooth but maybe a milimeter or two from the marks...it is easy to tell because when you do it wrong it will be off a long way. The Gates kit comes with a belt in addition to the tensioner and pulleys and the belt is just as easy to use and well marked as oem...maybe easier. I have used both.

After you install the belt and rotate the engine (from the crank please) the marks on the belt will no longer line up with the notches but the sprockets and crank pulleys will all be lined up every other stroke.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
 
#7 ·
I'm not sure why the previous posters are worried about the marks that the OP clearly put on the belt? However, it is clear from the pictures that the cam timing is wrong! The passenger side is advanced by one cog for sure.

You should have a new timing belt and pulleys installed if it has been several years, especially if you don't know if all the pulleys were changed at that time. Being off by one cog probably didn't do any harm, according to what others have posted. Incidentally, the previous mechanic may not have made a mistake. Maybe the belt jumped.
 
#8 ·
No' I agree completely Mikec! My point is the engine isn't damaged so who cares at this point other than no way in heck he should reuse that timing belt and he needs to replace the tensioner pulley absolutely and make sure the belt guard is adjusted properly so that if it did jump it won't happen again.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
 
#9 ·
#1 - why are you checking it? rarely do people disassemble things because they're working flawlessly and up to date?

the picture is inaccurate - retake the crank picture at exactly perpendicular point from the timing mark - the photo of the crank mark is offset to the left and inconclusive.
if you move to the right a small amount, the engine side marks are also going to drift to the "right" and that's the direction both cam pulley are offset.
 
#10 ·
The best way to be sure is to remove the belt and tensioner and redo the timing. However i doubt that is necessary. The other way is to line up the timing marks on the sprockets to there timing marks on the case. Ignore the belt marks and instead count the teeth from the crank mark out to the left cam mark and from the crank out to the right cam. This should always be done to confirm the timing marks on the belt in a new install. If the count is right you will be fine.
Also why are you doing any of this? Are you having driving problems? Codes? Weird noises?
 
#11 ·
Thanks guys for your input!

Please allow me clarify some confusions and questions.

I am taking timing belt off to do head gasket. The crankshaft position mark is very accurate. This is automatic so there is no guard. I am not sure if the belt jumps in automatic. Driving wise OK, I used OK because it is not powerful.

Initially I intended to reuse the belt, but like many of you said which I agree wholeheartedly, that I should not reuse, with possibly the exception of the water pump.

Usually I don't suspect other's work, but this time, I also saw missing timing cover bolts (2 of them) and quite some dents on the radiator (that was first time changing factory timing belt). So I was not happy even before I looked at the timing belt then I found the off marks.

I guess the conclusion would be, it is not bad enough to cause damage but maybe reduced performance? My car is not powerful.

It does bother me though, that off by 1 tooth or more can be tolerated by the engine/computer.
 
#13 ·
The crankshaft position mark is very accurate.
Ii'd like to see the photo lined up correctly though - The photo shows the *left side* of the top tooth (at 12 noon) on the crank sprocket, but not the right side of that same tooth. this verifies the camera is offset to the left and not lined up - adding a level of ambiguity for us.

ah - symptoms are important - lack of power, engine not right, good to know.

timing belts are really simple on Subarus:
do not install lower passengers side timing pulley until the belt is installed
1. line up the cam sprockets
2. line up the crank sprocket
3. install the belt without moving anything
4. release tensioner only if the marks look exactly on
5. rotate by hand to check your sprocket marks.

there's no need for marks on belts or counting teeth - but i understand those additional checks and the warm fuzzies they provide.

though all that stuff tends to confuse and muddy the water IMO, though i understand the additional level of checking. the only thing the engine needs to see is proper cam marks -that's where the actual physical triggers and mechanisms are. the engine can't "see" the belt, paint marks, or tooth counts. it "sees" cams and trigger marks - those seal the deal. and since they can only be exactly right or wrong (can only be off by whole integer values of teeth) - it's really simple if it's done right.
 
#12 ·
I want to refer you to my job. There were multiple marks on my sprockets and I spend a couple hours researching and scratching my head.
http://www.subaruoutback.org/#/forumsite/20514/topics/324377?page=1
The engine will still run if it's off a tooth. While tuning a turbo engine on a dyno it's not uncommon to advance or retard timing with adjustable cam sprockets. I'm not sure how many degrees a tooth is so no clue how bad it could affect performance.

After assuring 3 times I had the marks on the belt aligned correctly to the hash marks on the sprockets, the tooth count between hash marks were correct and each rotation performed manually the hash marks aligned to the marks on the block was I sure I had replaced it correctly. I don't guess I went back around 9 times, but i did keep on untill i figured the lines were never going to line back up right and repositioned the crank with the hash mark @12, all lines matched back up and recounted the teeth in between marks to ensure I still had the same tooth count between.

The ej25 has a 266 tooth belt with 46.8 teeth between hash marks on the passenger side and 43.7 teeth between hash marks on the driver side. I've got a nifty way to loosen those cam sprocket bolts on one of my posts also....

When did we start counting .7 and .8 teeth.....

Additional information....
A post on naoic lists one tooth being 7.5° of timing. Small enough to still run, but big enough it should have noticeable power loss.

Mark's aren't lining up with the belt and aren't lining up with the block.... Count them teeth. Make a small pen mark every 10 so multiple counts take less time.
 
#14 ·
Dustin_Kimble, somehow your link didn't work. I went to your profile to find it. Yours seems to be OK with respect to sprocket matching engine marks though, only belt marks are off. Strange why it happened still. Maybe it was installed shifted?

Points taken on counting teeth. I will double check when I remove it. Thanks for the info!
 
#15 ·
I had additional marks on my sprockets that had me confused instead of going with the actual hash marks indented into the metal. If I would have just installed the belt according to the hash marks corresponding with the marks on the belt I would have been just fine. All the other checks were just to make 110% sure. I'm sure I went above and beyond but that was the first time replacing a belt on a subaru. Second timing belt ever. Keeping the passenger lower pully off while lining everything up was key in getting enough slack to put the belt on too. Those paperclips on the sprockets were very helpful also.
 
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