Using Forester Springs/Struts/Shocks to lift 1st Gen Outbacks

[Suparu]

posted also in this thread Which is taller, Forester springs or Outback springs

Finally a collection of FOR and OB springs side-by-side yay!

SO HERE ARE PIX OF gen 1 OB, gen 2 OB and gen 1 FOR front springs:


gen 1 OB top coil diameter


gen 2 OB top coil diameter


gen 1 FOR top coil diameter


This (smaller top coil diameter) is why you need FOR upper spring perches to mount gen 1 FOR springs in your gen 1 OB strut


HERE ARE REAR SPRING PIX
gen 1 OB left, painted gen 1 FOR right



REAR SPRINGS gen 1 FOR left, gen 1 OB center, gen 1 IMP right


for the following pix, I've borrowed them from elsewhere, and I appologize I do not have their sources to give appropriate credit.

here are complete FOR strut assemblies
gen 1 FOR left and gen 2 FOR right


and REAR gen 2 FOR spring left and gen 1 FOR spring right (I think these springs are up-side down)


**EDIT** this is Heathy VT from dirtyimpreza**
here is a gen 2 LEG wagon (a bit loaded in the rear perhaps, or just saggy butt?) with LEG springs in rear, FOR springs in OB struts in front (on FOR rims?) But you can see how FOR springs push up the front of the LEG higher than LEG/OB springs

[kanurys]

Originally Posted by Suparu

posted also in this thread Which is taller, Forester springs or Outback springs

Finally a collection of FOR and OB springs side-by-side yay!

SO HERE ARE PIX OF gen 1 OB, gen 2 OB and gen 1 FOR front springs:


gen 1 OB top coil diameter


gen 2 OB top coil diameter


gen 1 FOR top coil diameter


This (smaller top coil diameter) is why you need FOR upper spring perches to mount gen 1 FOR springs in your gen 1 OB strut


HERE ARE REAR SPRING PIX
gen 1 OB left, painted gen 1 FOR right



REAR SPRINGS gen 1 FOR left, gen 1 OB center, gen 1 IMP right


for the following pix, I've borrowed them from elsewhere, and I appologize I do not have their sources to give appropriate credit.

here are complete FOR strut assemblies
gen 1 FOR left and gen 2 FOR right


and REAR gen 2 FOR spring left and gen 1 FOR spring right (I think these springs are up-side down)


here is agen 2 LEG wagon (a bit loaded in the rear perhaps, or just saggy butt?) with LEG springs in rear and FOR springs in front (on FOR rims?) But you can see how FOR springs push up the front of the LEG higher than LEG/OB springs

Thank you so much for posting this. You filled in a few data gaps that I've been searching for. The bit of data still missing is actual spring rates. Does anyone have these in comparison between Gen 1 and 2 Outbacks and the different Foresters?

[Suparu]

kanurys, I too haven't found a unified good source of those data. That would be the definitive holy grail!!

Here's what I've found (sorry it's messy)...
I need to show spring guage (spelling?) diameters also, but gen 1 and gen 2 OB are identical as are SVX, but I think gen 1 FOR coils are 1mm smaller, but maybe a stiffer rate?

Front Rear
rate lb/in upper diam mm (in) lower diam mm (in) rate lb/in lower diam mm (in) lower diam mm (in)

95-99 sedan 132 146 (5.74) 146 (5.74) 132 134 (5.27) 134 (5.27)
95-99 wagon 132 146 (5.74) 146 (5.74) 190 134 (5.27) 134 (5.27)
USDM forester 118 157

BUT I argue those FOR rate numbers....

the sources of these data (particular the FOR rates) are suspect

It (FOR springs) might feel stiffer b/c they're a taller spring, therefore "more sprung" when fitted in a strut? I had the spring compressor maxed out on the SVX spring and barely got it in the strut. I suspect OB H-6 and BAJA springs would be similar

ALSO

gen 2 OB front springs have 1/4 more rotation compared to gen 1 OB front springs. thus maybe the "stiffer" feel when mounted, but otherwise top and bottom coil diameters and coil thickness are identical.

[kanurys]

Originally Posted by Suparu

kanurys, I too haven't found a unified good source of those data. That would be the definitive holy grail!!

Here's what I've found (sorry it's messy)...
I need to show spring guage (spelling?) diameters also, but gen 1 and gen 2 OB are identical as are SVX, but I think gen 1 FOR coils are 1mm smaller, but maybe a stiffer rate?

Front Rear
rate lb/in upper diam mm (in) lower diam mm (in) rate lb/in lower diam mm (in) lower diam mm (in)

95-99 sedan 132 146 (5.74) 146 (5.74) 132 134 (5.27) 134 (5.27)
95-99 wagon 132 146 (5.74) 146 (5.74) 190 134 (5.27) 134 (5.27)
USDM forester 118 157

BUT I argue those FOR rate numbers....

the sources of these data (particular the FOR rates) are suspect

It (FOR springs) might feel stiffer b/c they're a taller spring, therefore "more sprung" when fitted in a strut? I had the SVX spring compressor maxed out and barely got it in the strut. I suspect OB H-6 and BAJA springs would be similar

ALSO

gen 2 OB front springs have 1/4 more rotation compared to gen 1 OB front springs. thus maybe the "stiffer" feel when mounted, but otherwise top and bottom coil diameters and coil thickness are identical.

Thanks for that info, Suparu. That is about all I have found, too. I have all the parts to do a shock replacement and all new sti bushings on my 1998 legacy outback, but I don't want to spend $500 on king springs (the ideal, with an inch or two taller and +25% rate).

It looks like my hunch appears correct that forester springs are taller, allowing more travel on a forester, but a weaker spring rate than the outback. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the forester is built on the lighter impreza chassis? Then the lighter springs would make sense. Also, the forester spring perch is higher on the shock than the outback. That is what gives those forester-shock modified outbacks their lift, not the spring rate. I mostly just want stiffer springs.

Anybody want to give me $500 and a hug a week?

[Suparu]

Originally Posted by kanurys

Thanks for that info, Suparu. That is about all I have found, too. I have all the parts to do a shock replacement and all new sti bushings on my 1998 legacy outback, but I don't want to spend $500 on king springs (the ideal, with an inch or two taller and +25% rate).

yeah, I hear that! A thing to consider with King raised springs (+2" higher) is that by raising the car with a stiffer and taller spring is that it keeps the shock at near max extension, limiting up travel (of the tire, down travel of the vehicle) but giving you nearly all the shock's travel in down travel (of the tire, up travel of the vehicle). So I think a FOR spring is ideal, b/c it pushed you up a little, but not too much and you still have most up and down travel by the car sitting closer in the middle of the shock travel.

Originally Posted by kanurys

It looks like my hunch appears correct in that forester springs are taller, allowing more travel on a forester, but a weaker spring rate than the outback. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the forester is built on the lighter impreza chassis? Then the lighter springs would make sense. Also, the forester spring perch is higher on the shock than the outback. That is mostly what gives those forester-shock modified outbacks their lift, not the spring rate. I mostly just want stiffer springs.

So in cars.com research, i get these weights.
model weight
1995 legacy sedan 3115
1995 legacy wagon 3190
1993 impreza wagon 2750
1990 loyale wagon 2405
1998 legacy wagon OB 3190
2000 forester 3125
2007 forester 3090
2003 impreza wagon WRX 3165
2003 legacy wagon OB 3415
1998 forester L 3058
2005 forester turbo 3210

so the older IMPS were lighter, but newer WRXs and FORs are close to as 2nd gen legacies with respect to weight, with 2nd gen OBs the heaviest...


Yes, fozzies (pre 09) are based on the impreza chasis, but I think the fozzies may have a higher spring rate despite a thinner coil thickness. or maybe similar rate but a taller spring, so it's under higher compression compared to legacy and OB springs...

I think early (gen 1 98-02) fozzies had a longer shock travel which actually put their lower spring perch closer to the tire. This explains why people can put a taller tire on OB strut-lifted vehicles compared to (gen 1) FOR strut-lifted cars. So with that, the 1st gen OB strut is the preferred strut lift, but the 2nd gen FOR strut assembly (strut, spring and top hat combo) provides more overall lift AND travel. I suspect you could marry a 2nd gen forester spring into an OB strut but you'd need the upper spring perch top hat combo... I think all the springs have the same lower diameter, it's just the top that changes.

gen 1 OB top


gen 2 OB top


gen 1 FOR top


94 SVX top




You could get a good lift up front with H-6 OB springs and a touch more with BAJA springs, but it's be higher in front than back with FOR springs. Mine works out pretty well with FOR in the rear and SVX in the front b/c my bumoer skid plate combo is like 140 pounds

It's a tiny bit higher in front, but it looks about right. Some might say "with the saggy butt" look, with a slightly lower rear wheel well arch, but I think the overall lift combo works well in my application.

slightly uneven terrain

SVX front FOR rear (new tires)


2nd gen OB front FOR rear (new tires)


1st gen OB front FOR rear (worn out tires)


SVX FRONT FOR rear new tires, unever terrain





Is that helpful, or muddy the waters further?

I know I was very confused about the little info I had, but getting it all in hand and now having side-by-side comparisons REALLY helped me out.

[kanurys]

Originally Posted by Suparu

Is that helpful, or muddy the waters further?

I know I was very confused about the little info I had, but getting it all in hand and now having side-by-side comparisons REALLY helped me out.

I've followed your posts on this car and they were helpful, but I think we're dealing with slightly different considerations. I'd mainly like to have more stiff spring rates and only secondly a lift. I already have a lifted GL. My concern is what springs are more stiff with my stock outback struts.

[Suparu]

Ahh. Thanks for the following the thread and for your interest. I'd like to help so it's good to know your application interests too.

Yeah the GL is the way to go for off road for sure, but I hear you on wanting a stiffer spring for a daily driver.
So for stiffer rate, I'd suggest looking into gen 2 OB for the front, or as I'm sure you know King makes a Heavy Duty (HD) spring which is OEM ride height AND the raised spring gaining 2"... I think their "OEM" spring provides a little lift too. I thought rallitek made an HD spring, but maybe hard to find for your gen OB. There are other spring manufacturer that make a lot of lowering stuff but also HD OEM ride height springs.

** did some googling to refresh my brain...
pedders, cobb, bilstein (or are these guys just shocks?) popped up with HD springs.

Pedders (also Aussie) have an HD spring that similar to King gives some lift...
check these links:
pedders heavy duty springs

Pedders Suspension - E-Catalogue
makes a 7103 7103 Heavy Duty Coil Spring

Pair of 1996-98 Subaru Outback front heavy duty coil springs classifieds
Pair of 1996-98 Subaru Outback front heavy duty coil springs - Winnipeg Other Parts, Accessories For Sale - Kijiji Winnipeg Canada.




Maybe helpful, maybe redundant from your searching (I just found this thread as USMB: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/...d.php?t=120424 but I hope it helps some...

cheers

[kanurys]

I emailed the pedders guys a month ago. They said they don't offer anything for the 1998 outback. I'll email them again with the part numbers off *their own website*. I've been active on the USMB thread, too. Not much turned up there (I posted in the thread you included).

Rallitek does not offer the HD springs for Gen 1 or 2 anymore. They only offered the rear set anyways. King Spring HD/lift springs are available for around $500 shipped. That's a little pricey for only coil springs on a $4000 vehicle. I'd purchase if a full set were around $300 (probably about cost from AU).

I'm giving up on Forester springs. Everything I've researched says they won't improve the loaded handling like stiffer springs will. This is not to discredit the great forester suspension swap to get a lift on your outback. That is a great modification. I just want something that can handle a load and not bottom out on little bumps, etc...

[Suparu]

Originally Posted by kanurys

I'm giving up on Forester springs. Everything I've researched says they won't improve the loaded handling like stiffer springs will. This is not to discredit the great forester suspension swap to get a lift on your outback. That is a great modification. I just want something that can handle a load and not bottom out on little bumps, etc...

That's a bummer on Pedders and rallitek...
Thanks for the props! And, yeah I understand your perspective on the FOR springs. They may push up a little but not necessarily provide more load-bearing capacity. HD springs are the way to go there, if you can source some.. I've seen used kings here or there, but certainly not a frequent item to cross the classifieds.


I just revisited this thread from the beginning.
Holy cow, there is a LOT of info in here... I see you've been on this topic since the beginning, so a lot of this isn't news to you, but a refreshed couldn't hurt.
Littlekicker was looking at custom making HD springs (post 49. I think he got that done for around $250ish?)
98obster had kings but ditched that for gen 2 FOR bits (page 7-9ish), then recycled the kings into an OBS (post 83?).
I had direct quotes from pedders on post 63ish, which got me thinking again... If they make an HD coil for a gen 1 FOR, that might be the way to go for your purposes. More load capacity and maybe a little lift (although I realize lifting isn't your priority), but that might get your more model years to chose from rather than just the gen 1 OB.

*shrug* just some thoughts I had while reviewing this long thread...
best to ya and keep on hunting. The right thing will come up and you'll get set up.

cheers

[kanurys]

Originally Posted by Suparu

That's a bummer on Pedders and rallitek...
Thanks for the props! And, yeah I understand your perspective on the FOR springs. They may push up a little but not necessarily provide more load-bearing capacity. HD springs are the way to go there, if you can source some.. I've seen used kings here or there, but certainly not a frequent item to cross the classifieds.


I just revisited this thread from the beginning.
Holy cow, there is a LOT of info in here... I see you've been on this topic since the beginning, so a lot of this isn't news to you, but a refreshed couldn't hurt.
Littlekicker was looking at custom making HD springs (post 49. I think he got that done for around $250ish?)
98obster had kings but ditched that for gen 2 FOR bits (page 7-9ish), then recycled the kings into an OBS (post 83?).
I had direct quotes from pedders on post 63ish, which got me thinking again... If they make an HD coil for a gen 1 FOR, that might be the way to go for your purposes. More load capacity and maybe a little lift (although I realize lifting isn't your priority), but that might get your more model years to chose from rather than just the gen 1 OB.

*shrug* just some thoughts I had while reviewing this long thread...
best to ya and keep on hunting. The right thing will come up and you'll get set up.

cheers

Right on! Thanks for the post review. I was thinking the same thing - to go with a newer model year spring that is available. I'm supposed to hear back form the Pedders dealer today, about the part numbers I sent him. I'll post what I find.