Ultimate AW Tire for Subaru Outbacks?

[Emerson00]

I'm looking at my tire options right now, too.

I'm considering Yokohama Geolandar, Pirelli P4 Four Season, or the Nokians (I think all in 215/60/17). We take occasional ski trips up north/out west, and in a great year we get snow locally but I don't need a dedicated snow tire. The Michelins are too $$ for my blood.

I like the Yoko's long tread life, and gravel/dirt/mud potential (sometimes work and/or play bring me onto such roads). I consider myself a rather competent driver in weather/snow conditions, so I'm not concerned about the Yokohama's reported difficulties in snow; OTOH I don't want a tire that is described by its manufacturer as "even in light snow"...

The Pirellis seem capable in snow (plus), and I think Pirelli makes a good tire (plus), and they have a reasonable tread life (plus) though they seem far more dedicated to the street than, perhaps I'm willing to accept I really need (frankly, I know I'm not talking about true offroad, it's a Subaru, not a Jeep). Maybe I just want tires that remind me of my Jeep roots.

I do like the Nokian's snow abilities, but am quite leary of their shorter longevity (I don't like wasting tires) and I'm not convinced that down south of the Mason Dixon I'll need that level of winter/snow capability - no matter how much I want to imagine myself going skiing up in VT all the time, or Maryland getting lots of snow. I also don't like having to mail order them and being SOL if I shred one as there are no local shops supporting them.

['05 Outback 2.5i]

Originally Posted by Emerson00

I'm looking at my tire options right now, too.

I'm considering Yokohama Geolandar, Pirelli P4 Four Season, or the Nokians (I think all in 215/60/17). We take occasional ski trips up north/out west, and in a great year we get snow locally but I don't need a dedicated snow tire. The Michelins are too $$ for my blood.

I like the Yoko's long tread life, and gravel/dirt/mud potential (sometimes work and/or play bring me onto such roads). I consider myself a rather competent driver in weather/snow conditions, so I'm not concerned about the Yokohama's reported difficulties in snow; OTOH I don't want a tire that is described by its manufacturer as "even in light snow"...

The Pirellis seem capable in snow (plus), and I think Pirelli makes a good tire (plus), and they have a reasonable tread life (plus) though they seem far more dedicated to the street than, perhaps I'm willing to accept I really need (frankly, I know I'm not talking about true offroad, it's a Subaru, not a Jeep). Maybe I just want tires that remind me of my Jeep roots.

I do like the Nokian's snow abilities, but am quite leary of their shorter longevity (I don't like wasting tires) and I'm not convinced that down south of the Mason Dixon I'll need that level of winter/snow capability - no matter how much I want to imagine myself going skiing up in VT all the time, or Maryland getting lots of snow. I also don't like having to mail order them and being SOL if I shred one as there are no local shops supporting them.

Hey Emerson,

I’m on the other side of the fence as you when it comes to Pirelli tires. I want to like them (heck both my wife and are Italian), but I’ve just seen and heard too much bad about them, from family members with endless problems with O.E. Pirelli’s on their Maserati to horrible tread life, weak sidewalls, and questionable support to ever consider them. Not to mention I’ve never really honestly seen a great review for a Pirelli tire (though I did have a friend who ran the P4 on an Acura Daily Driver and seemed to like them, but he only put about 20K miles on them before selling the car).

I don’t think the Yoko A/T-S is horrible in snow, but it lacks the tread sipping (and rubber compounds) to provide the same level of stopping and turning performance that a tire more focused on bad weather can provide. I’m sure that it is great at getting the car going in deep snow, but beyond that doubt it is much better than many all season choices when it comes to the snow we typically get around here. That being said there are a lot of rave reviews for this tire on this board, but I think John Davies’ just may be the most honest/realistic review of the tire's snow performance..

As for the ‘in light snow’ comment, that is pretty standard verbiage for any all season tire. If it doesn’t have a winter weather focus (snowflake on the mountain) or isn’t a dedicated winter tire, Tire Rack uses that line to say they are acceptable for occasional usage in light snow (which is pretty much Maryland in many people’s eyes).

Likewise, I’m not a big fan of Michelin tires, having owned a few sets, and never being terribly impressed with their performance, especially when weighed against the price. However, its been a number of years since I’ve owned a ‘newer’ design Michelin, and a 2009 Car and Driver winter test actually achieved some pretty good performance from the Pilot Sport A/S (now superseded by the Pilot Sport A/S Plus), and might be a good year round consideration, though they are a bit pricey (at around $190/ tire) as you have noted, but may be worth considering.

All that being said, I own two sets of Nokian WR G2 SUV’s right now. One set as a year round tire on the Outback, and one set as winter shoes for my wife’s ride. I just put the Nokians (215/65-16) on the Outback about 800 miles ago, but have been through one winter season on my wife’s ride, and they are back on her ride for this winter season (already out in the snow in the freak October storm we had). I see reports of quick wear on the forums, as you have mentioned, but wonder why. The Nokians on my wife’s ride have a 460 UTQG and the Nokian’s I just put on the Outback have a 500 UTQG Tread Wear rating. Both of which would put them in the same territory as good all seasons, and much longer lasting than the stock Bridgestone’s (with a 260 UTQG), at least by the ratings.

I have been very happy with the performance of the Nokians so far. On my wife’s ride (which I have the most driving time on), they are a bit squishier than her dedicated summer tires (but the summers are on one inch larger wheels, are wider, and have a lower aspect ratio, so), but no worse than the stock Michelin Energy MXVs were, but rain and snow traction far exceeds the OEM Michelins, and at similar or lower prices. I’m still forming opinions of the Nokians on the Outback, but rain traction has been excellent, they are quiet, and so far I am happy with the choice (but I can’t wait for a nice snow storm).

The Nokian WR G2 is available in the stock 225/55-17 size, and is a little more car focused in its tread pattern, but also the priciest Nokian WR option at around $167/tire. The WR G2 SUV is available in 215/60-17 (around $141/ tire) or in the 225/60-1 size for around $147/ tire (this size is about 27.6” tall, and is a tight fit, but reportably does fit without issue). I think both Nokian’s rather open tread pattern, and relatively deep (for an all season tire) tread will also work well for light off-road use, and both of the SUV versions mentioned are ‘XL’ load tires, giving you an additional sidewall ply as well over the non XL Nokians. While I wouldn’t expect them to be the equal of the Yoko’s off-road, either in ultimate traction or durability, I would expect them to be a better choice than the average all season tire here.

I know you put a lot of miles on, so wear characteristics might be the deciding factor for you, but I think the Nokian WR G2 (or G2 SUV) are excellent all around tires for a car like the Outback (and really the only all season tire that will have the confidence of the snowflake winter rating), and would recommend them highly. It’s a shame that local support is non existent (heck, most people around here look at you funny when you ask about Nokians, usually followed by something like ‘the people who make cell phones?’), but when you consider that the tire is the only thing actually holding you to the road, it makes sense to go with the one that will perform the best for your situation..

[Emerson00]

Thanks, Scott. My dad used to run Pirellis on his 1st Porsche back in the day, and I did have a couple sets on the bike which ran great (didn't last but Italian bikes like new tires), but I haven't owned a set of Pirellis on a car, so perhaps it's little more than dogmatic thinking. I was surprised to learn Pirellis are made in China/Brazil now. So many good Italian products no longer made in Italy.

I'll have well above 30k on the OB in the first year, so mileage is important; realistically, more important than snow performance. How many miles do you anticipate from the Nokians? My local mechanic will put on anything I ask, for a fair price, though I'll hear **** about an "off brand" like Nokians. I may be hung up on the idea of circumference uniformity when it comes to "supporting" Nokians... I'll rotate them myself anyway, and more than likely use Dynabeads for continuous balancing (a bike thing I've learned to LOVE).

I always put BFG A/Ts on the Jeeps, Tacomas, and the Rover, and never had issues in the snow, so perhaps the Geolandars are a safe bet. The AWD should do better than the old Jeeps with comparable tires in snow, anyway.

['05 Outback 2.5i]

Originally Posted by Emerson00

Thanks, Scott. My dad used to run Pirellis on his 1st Porsche back in the day, so I suppose it's dogmatic thinking. I did have a couple sets on the bike which ran great (didn't last but Italian bikes like new tires). I haven't owned a set of Pirellis on a car, so perhaps it's little more than dogmatic thinking. I was surprised to learn Pirellis are made in China/Brazil now. So many good Italian products no longer made in Italy.

I'll have well above 30k on the OB in the first year, so mileage is important; realistically, more important than snow performance. How many miles do you anticipate from the Nokians? My local mechanic will put on anything I ask, for a fair price, though I'll hear **** about an "off brand" like Nokians. I may be hung up on the idea of circumference uniformity when it comes to "supporting" Nokians... I'll rotate them myself anyway, and more than likely use Dynabeads for continuous balancing (a bike thing I've learned to LOVE).

I always put BFG A/Ts on the Jeeps, Tacomas, and the Rover, and never had issues in the snow, so perhaps the Geolandars are a safe bet. The AWD should do better than the old Jeeps with comparable tires in snow, anyway.

That's funny, I was just editing my original post to add some additional detail and some links (many of which you may have seen already, but..).

I'm expecting between 40-50K miles out of the Nokian's on my Outback, but that is just an estimate based on the UTQG rating of 500. The last set of tires on the Outback had a 460 UTQG and went 50K miles, and if it hadn't been for alignment issues, probably could have gone another 10K or so.

The Nokian's on my wife's ride though, I'll be happy to get 30K (of usable winter tread depth). They have a 460 UTQG rating, but her ride is HEAVY and sporty, and asks ALOT of its tires.

The Outback by comparison should be pretty easy on the tires (though they have 40mm less section width as well), though I am slightly concerned about going down to the 215 section width from the 225, and that they may wear faster in warm dry handling as a result of having less rubber on the road, but longevity isn't really an issue for me, as I have a short commute, my primary concern is wet/snow/nasty weather traction..

[Emerson00]

Well i went with the Yokohamas. Local shop - the mechanic we use for anything I can't do and isn't covered by the Subaru Certification - basically matched Tirerack's price and then I'll have some local support should something go wrong. I did like the Nokians, and sort of wish they'd have been easier to purchase locally, but it's Maryland... if we get winter weather, I'm certain the Subaru's AWD with Geolandars will be as confident as my Jeeps with BFG A/Ts, and I'm more likely to encounter gravel/dirt/muddy trails or construction sites (w/ debris) than winter conditions...

^^ me rationalizing the decision that was made based on mileage/tread life and convenience... Those Nokians look sweet.

It'll be a week or two before the tires are installed, so my bet is we get smacked with a major snowstorm in the next week or two since my OEM (junk!) tires are basically bald. :-)

[Thanatos]

I just swapped my OEM wheels with Toyo 800's in 225/60/16 for a set of used 17x7's and added a new set of Kumho Ecsta ASX's in 225/45/17. I love those tires on my Nissan NX2000 and I am on my second set on that car. Hoping that these tires do as well on the OBW.

[sixfifty]

Originally Posted by Emerson00

How many miles do you anticipate from the Nokians?

i can see i'm a bit late here, but it looks like i'm going to get between 45~50k out of this set of nokians (wrg2). probably change them this fall just because i'm close to the snow wear bars right now with about 40k.

as soon as the weather gets decent i'll be on the motorcycle. no real issues so far given the mild winter, but i imagine they'd be pretty hinky by november or so.

i'll definitely get another set of the nokians.

[OB2.5XT]

Originally Posted by sixfifty

i can see i'm a bit late here, but it looks like i'm going to get between 45~50k out of this set of nokians (wrg2). probably change them this fall just because i'm close to the snow wear bars right now with about 40k.

as soon as the weather gets decent i'll be on the motorcycle. no real issues so far given the mild winter, but i imagine they'd be pretty hinky by november or so.

i'll definitely get another set of the nokians.

Do you have any feedback as to how they do as a summer tire?

[rico567]

When reading reviews, do NOT focus on a horror story, read the percentage of overall approval. There are horror stories for all (that is ALL) products that you can buy. And the Internet tends to emphasize those. People who are very happy post less. The good review tend to blur, while the bad ones stick out. Leo Tolstoy described this syndrome in the first sentence of Anna Karenina: "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

[sixfifty]

Originally Posted by OB2.5XT

Do you have any feedback as to how they do as a summer tire?

if you mean as a high performance tire on tarmac, then no, i can't give any feedback. they are reasonably grippy, not quiet but not too loud with an acceptable amount of sidewall flex. they've done well in the rare avoidance/braking maneuver.

they work very well in the rain. tread wear has been good and even since i have them rotated every 6000 miles or so.

i really only push these tires on gravel, dirt and snow.

when there's no one else around.