How Does a EZ30D Charging System Work? (SPECIFICS) - Page 4 - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
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post #31 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-12-2018, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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post #32 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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@cardoc


I have some logs. Alternator duty % still does the same thing it's always done, even with the supplied defs: 0%.



The voltage didn't appear to drop out as harshly during this run as it can after I've been driving for an hour or more. In those cases after driving an hour or more, anything at or above 3k RPM and it'll drop to ~12V.


Coolant temp was in there for my own info, since I've got another bad hose somewhere and I gotta keep an eye on it again til I can track that one down.






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post #33 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 07:21 AM
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That all looks normal. Really. Mine acts the same way, with the old alternator and the new one and I don't have battery issues. Other 6s I've serviced do the same. Regardless of what is on or not, the alternator does not output much at idle. That's why you don't idle the car long with appliances on. Do you have an amp meter? You could check ampere output at the battery posts over the next couple days when the engine is cold and compare, but you'll probably find that it is good. If you have a conductance tester, you could track conductance between the battery and engine block and body. If you lose more than 80 amps, check your grounding, add as needed.

I forgot about the other two add on electrical devices that draw load - Rule 500 gpm water pump and the 7" electric fan for the WTA intercooler and supercharger circulation and their radiator.

Up to 850 CCA https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/mid...xoCCFUQAvD_BwE

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post #34 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 07:44 AM
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@cardoc

I have some logs. Alternator duty % still does the same thing it's always done, even with the supplied defs: 0%.

The voltage didn't appear to drop out as harshly during this run as it can after I've been driving for an hour or more. In those cases after driving an hour or more, anything at or above 3k RPM and it'll drop to ~12V. . . .
The constant 0% is strange when the battery voltage does seem to be reacting to engine conditions.

Do you have a digital multimeter to measure DC voltage? Perhaps backprobe terminal 3 of the alternator connector to measure the voltage there.

I don't have specs on what measured duty cycle signal voltage should be, but in other threads it's been reported in the 5 - 5.8 V range. If the "duty cycle" is indeed 0% as Romraider reports, there would probably be no significant voltage at terminal 3.
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post #35 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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I'll have to get it really hot again. After an hour or so it will do ~12V at 70mph, and it's easily noticeable in the headlights and dash lights. That's the part to me that really indicates trouble.


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The constant 0% is strange when the battery voltage does seem to be reacting to engine conditions.
Looks strange, yes, but it's not to me because I've seen it doing that since the first day I hooked a computer up to it like.... forever ago.

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post #36 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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New question: what's the lowest normal operating voltage, at idle, that I should be observing?


Battery was tested on one of those big ass load testers at 300A for a seemingly long time (probably 6-10 seconds). Didn't drop below 11-ish volts at that draw. Started out mid-to-high 12's, vehicle off.


This is what I get when it's running though. That seems more drop than there should be.


(Even if this chart looks normal, getting 12V or less while moving 70mph sucks, and I just haven't been able to log that yet)
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post #37 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 06:06 PM
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I'll have to get it really hot again. After an hour or so it will do ~12V at 70mph, and it's easily noticeable in the headlights and dash lights. That's the part to me that really indicates trouble.32

Looks strange, yes, but it's not to me because I've seen it doing that since the first day I hooked a computer up to it like.... forever ago.
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New question: what's the lowest normal operating voltage, at idle, that I should be observing?


Battery was tested on one of those big ass load testers at 300A for a seemingly long time (probably 6-10 seconds). Didn't drop below 11-ish volts at that draw. Started out mid-to-high 12's, vehicle off. . . .
Lower alternator/battery voltage is normal as the engine compartment and the alternator and battery warm up. It's needed, because at higher temperatures the battery can be damaged by higher voltage/current being pushed through it, and it's not necessary. However, I don't think dropping to 12 V, especially when cruising, is normal.

This brings me to the duty cycle signal, which might be the key to your issue, and the explanation of it's role in the Mitsubishi alternator (AC Generator Design Differences )



As was explained in the article, when the voltage coming from the ECM to the base of TR1 is low, TR1 is off. The internal regulator samples the system voltage ("S") at the junction of R1 and R2. With TR1 off, the sample is 2/3 of "S". In the example, if "S" is 12 V, the sample is 8 V. At 8V, the zener diode will conduct, turning TR2 On, and that in turn switches TR3 off, cutting current to the field coil and shutting off the alternator charging output. (This is just an example; the actual point at which the zener conducts could well be different, but the impact of the duty cycle %, as expanded below, is the focus.)

However, when the duty cycle is at a high point, TR1 is turned on, shunting R3. Now, the sample voltage is only 1/2 of "S", i.e, lower, and the zener diode does not conduct. This, instead, causes TR3 to conduct turning on the field coil current and alternator output.

Consequently, the longer the duty cycle signal remains low, the less time there's field coil current and alternator output. Given that others have found the duty cycle signal to be significantly greater than "0", and if, in fact, the voltage at terminal 3 of the alternator connector is remaining low pretty well all the time, that would tend to hold the alternator output at a significantly lower average than when there is a 50% duty cycle with TR1 conducting 50% of the time.

That's why it would be helpful to confirm whether or not the voltage at terminal 3 of the alternator connector is in fact low all the time, in other words, verifying that the Romraider indication is correct. If it is, then I think we have to figure out why the duty cycle is remaining low.

The measurement can be done at idle, even before the engine is fully warmed up. Romraider shows the duty cycle at zero all the time, and I doubt the duty cycle should ever be at zero when the engine is running.

Incidentally, when the engine is running, two of the wires at the alternator connector should have system voltage; the third is the line from the ECM.
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post #38 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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I just don't think it's ever read anything besides 0% duty, no matter which alternator, battery, or anything since I've had this car and known about RomRaider. I'll have to take the scope down when I can.

I went and took things apart out of curiosity and now I broke a screw. lol yeah I'm good at that. I need to get the alt off the Bean Machine and I can try this again. That one acted similarly, although not as terrifying. A 2 minute charge light but that was it a while back.

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post #39 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 09:09 PM
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I just don't think it's ever read anything besides 0% duty, no matter which alternator, battery, or anything since I've had this car and known about RomRaider. I'll have to take the scope down when I can. . . .
Which begs the question: For all that time (presuming since you had the car), did you have essentially the same battery voltage symptoms?
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post #40 of 107 (permalink) Old 06-13-2018, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Which begs the question: For all that time (presuming since you had the car), did you have essentially the same battery voltage symptoms?

That's a very good question. I'm not sure. I know I've had low-voltage, say, =<13V while under 1,500 RPM for the whole time... You can see an example in the following video. Look at headlights; listen to exhaust, start at 0:45.





That was when I was running a grand total of about 600W RMS, so a couple dozen amps less when I'm loading the audio out, but still, to my eyes, abnormal operation, but I dealt with it.




Actually... Now that I recall...


About two weeks after I got the car the battery that was in it took a dump on me, but I can remember not much changing afterwards except being able to start the car reliably. I'd have headlight dimming when fans, ABS/VDC, A/C, or other systems turned on/engaged.


----


So I stole the alternator back out of the Bean Machine. While I was up there I fired it up for a second, and that one also showed 0% alt duty the whole time. Granted, I didn't realize the alternator wasn't hooked up til after that, but by then the battery was dead so I couldn't start it again anyway... but you'd think it would show something even if it wasn't hooked up because this is asking the computer what it's sending. You'd think at 9.8V it would be **** near as high a duty cycle as it would allow. Two H6's both showing 0% sounds a bit... hinky.



After getting that alt back in the VDC though, I'd get 14.2V at unloaded idle. Kick on A/C and I'd get 13.9-14.0V. Turn on headlights, 13.0-13.2V. Brights? 12.7V. Spin up to 2-3k, get 13.5-14.2V loaded. Idle back down, loaded, back to mid 12's. Turn off lights and it takes about 3-5 seconds to slowly come back up to 14.0-14.2V.


Why headlights? That's only a dozen and a half amps...


---



Introduce JL Audio XD1000v2. High idle... Massive dimming during bass heavy tracks, even at 3k RPM, but fast recovery to ~14V. Understandable, that is 3.2 metric fecktons of power. Logs of that available at high polling rate.




---


Another thought. Making a janky little PWM generator that goes proportional to output voltage shouldn't be too hard nor expensive. Can do something with a 555... if it turns out I'm actually not getting a correction PWM signal


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