What Would You Do? - Page 2 - Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 10:16 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by z28dug View Post
Since you seem to work on them quite a bit, do techs always use new head bolts when replacing the gaskets?

I could see reusing them maybe once, but the third time I would think new bolts would be mandatory.
That's a good point. Subaru techs, and well respected subaru independents, don't replace headbolts without reason. maybe it's worth considering with multiple consecutive headjobs, that's not my specialty lol. More generally the threads - on the bolts and in the block - should be checked to make sure they're clean and engaging smoothly. That's a very good point and probably needs attention since we know the heads were resurfaced.

Subaru headbolts are reusable and only replaced if rusty/marred/compromised and don't engage properly. Like lug nuts and oil pan plugs - it'll be obvious if the threads are tight and compromised.

The biggest advantage to replacing them is the time savings cleaning the old ones, but a shop can just toss them in the parts cleaner. Otherwise, replacing them means installing the same bolts that were just tossed in the scrap pile.

What the main concern with replacing bolts might be, is that it can create a false sense of security and focuses attention where it's least needed.

If this OP says "Oh yeah the headbolts were never replaced those other two times, I'm doing it this time"...and uses new bolts to install headgaskets the exact same way the last two were installed - there's probably going to be another failure.


H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
97riored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Car: 1997 Outback
Posts: 359
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I just decided to do an EJ22, and not even open the EJ25 again. I just think the odds that I'll have better luck with the gaskets this time, AND that the block, surface, bolts and heads are perfectly fine with 202k miles, being opened 3 times, and with at least one known overheat, are slim to none.

I'd rather just be down a few HP, and not have to mess with it again. Thanks for the advice, I'll update once the swap is done or if I have any more questions.

PS- To answer your question Idosubaru, I'm not sure about the bolts. I'll check my old invoices when I get home, just for curiosity sake.


1997 Outback Limited

2005 Volvo V70R

1994 Chevrolet Beretta
97riored is offline  
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97riored View Post
PS- To answer your question Idosubaru, I'm not sure about the bolts. I'll check my old invoices when I get home, just for curiosity sake.
Check the gasket brand, not bolts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
What brand gaskets were used the last two times?
Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
What brand head gaskets?
Maybe it was a typo but an example of the made up illustration of misdirected focus:

Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
What the main concern with replacing bolts might be, is that it can create a false sense of security and focuses attention where it's least needed.

If this OP says "Oh yeah the headbolts were never replaced those other two times, I'm doing it this time"...and uses new bolts to install headgaskets the exact same way the last two were installed - there's probably going to be another failure.
If they resurfaced the heads, they probably cleaned the block. If we assume a decent brand headgasket was used and I had to guess...which is really all but meaningless honestly...but I'd guess either the block or torque (dirty threads or they didnt' lubricate them) are the issue. Hard to say which one.

You could stop in and ask the shop what they think, just ask politely and let them know you're interested in making an informed decision. If they do a lot of Subaru's ask them if they think it's the bolts or block? Most shops/mechanics would appreciate knowing it happened, i would.

H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
If you've already decided on the EJ22 then the gasket brand and asking the shop might not matter if you're ditching the engine anyway.

You should be able to get $100-$250 for the Ej25 on FB, CL, ebay. Someone will try to repair it, use the heads or intake, etc.

H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
97riored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Car: 1997 Outback
Posts: 359
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
If you've already decided on the EJ22 then the gasket brand and asking the shop might not matter if you're ditching the engine anyway.

You should be able to get $100-$250 for the Ej25 on FB, CL, ebay. Someone will try to repair it, use the heads or intake, etc.
Cool, I'll see about getting like a core fee from the shop, or selling it myself, if the EJ25 is sell-able.

I just checked the old invoices for s***s & giggles. No notation of the gasket brand either time. When it was done the last time in 2012 I know that mechanic just bought everything from the NAPA next door, so I'd guess something they sold. The first time in 2006 really no idea. Nothing about the bolts from the 2006 job either, but on the 2012 job there is a labor charge for the head bolts, so I'd assume that was cleaning them.

1997 Outback Limited

2005 Volvo V70R

1994 Chevrolet Beretta
97riored is offline  
post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97riored View Post
I just checked the old invoices for s***s & giggles. No notation of the gasket brand either time. When it was done the last time in 2012 I know that mechanic just bought everything from the NAPA next door, so I'd guess something they sold. The first time in 2006 really no idea. Nothing about the bolts from the 2006 job either, but on the 2012 job there is a labor charge for the head bolts, so I'd assume that was cleaning them.
Ah I hate to say it, but those dates might be the most telling thing and give you hope if you want to keep that engine. I assumed they were done more recently. Napa, and they got it locally - probably means Fel Pro.

Modern Fel pro gaskets are reasonable choices for EJ25's.

But that wasn't the case back then. Older Fel Pro's, and certainly any other aftermarket gasket they would have chosen back then, were much different and avoided for a long time on EJ25's in the Subaru community. The 2006 was certainly older style and not the newer redesigned Fel Pro's. Your 2012 probably was as well, but I'm not sure. You might be able to google when the newest MLS redesign came out by Fel-Pro.

So - based on the dates, there's probably a good chance that motor is good and not as scary as I thought. But we are still looking at 3 failed gaskets. I'd still go EJ22, though I almost always would. But I'm less inclined to feel twitchy about your engine now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97riored View Post
Cool, I'll see about getting like a core fee from the shop, or selling it myself, if the EJ25 is sell-able.
Engine and trans cores are going the way of the dinosaurs. I haven't given an engine/trans core in...ummm... it was 15 years ago if I did.

If you go get the engine yourself - you pay and they put it in your trunk.
If it's a shop - they don't need to turn it into the yard for a core so just ask for it back.

For $100 someone will probably be ecstatic to use the heads, intake, or cheap rebuild for a toy. But $100 may not be worth the time.

H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
97riored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Car: 1997 Outback
Posts: 359
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
Ah I hate to say it, but those dates might be the most telling thing and give you hope if you want to keep that engine. I assumed they were done more recently. Napa, and they got it locally - probably means Fel Pro.

Modern Fel pro gaskets are reasonable choices for EJ25's.

But that wasn't the case back then. Older Fel Pro's, and certainly any other aftermarket gasket they would have chosen back then, were much different and avoided for a long time on EJ25's in the Subaru community. The 2006 was certainly older style and not the newer redesigned Fel Pro's. Your 2012 probably was as well, but I'm not sure. You might be able to google when the newest MLS redesign came out by Fel-Pro.

So - based on the dates, there's probably a good chance that motor is good and not as scary as I thought. But we are still looking at 3 failed gaskets. I'd still go EJ22, though I almost always would. But I'm less inclined to feel twitchy about your engine now.

Engine and trans cores are going the way of the dinosaurs. I haven't given an engine/trans core in...ummm... it was 15 years ago if I did.

If you go get the engine yourself - you pay and they put it in your trunk.
If it's a shop - they don't need to turn it into the yard for a core so just ask for it back.

For $100 someone will probably be ecstatic to use the heads, intake, or cheap rebuild for a toy. But $100 may not be worth the time.
The 2012 might be a little deceiving too, I was off on the miles. I got a series of new leased cars in 2012, so the final set of gaskets only got maybe 10k miles put on them as a backup car in the last 6 years before they blew, not the 50k like I was thinking before I checked receipts.

Either way, I'd rather just do the EJ22 and forget about it. I just moved to the coast, so there are 0 hills, so I doubt I'll miss the HP that much. I've got another 300hp wagon for when I need to feel sporty, or go on longer highway trips.

That makes sense about the cores. If I'm nearby after they pull it with a truck I might just get it myself. We have a couple barns/warehouses, so if no one wants the EJ25, I might just store it JIC I ever decide to wake it back up again...

1997 Outback Limited

2005 Volvo V70R

1994 Chevrolet Beretta
97riored is offline  
post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97riored View Post
The 2012 might be a little deceiving too, I was off on the miles. I got a series of new leased cars in 2012, so the final set of gaskets only got maybe 10k miles put on them as a backup car in the last 6 years before they blew, not the 50k like I was thinking before I checked receipts.

Either way, I'd rather just do the EJ22 and forget about it. I just moved to the coast, so there are 0 hills, so I doubt I'll miss the HP that much. I've got another 300hp wagon for when I need to feel sporty on take longer highways trips.

That makes sense about the cores. If I'm nearby after they pull it with a truck I might just get it myself. We have a couple barns/warehouses, so if no one wants the EJ25, I might just store it JIC I ever decide to wake it back up again...
Got it, good luck!

H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
97riored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Car: 1997 Outback
Posts: 359
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by idosubaru View Post
Got it, good luck!
Thanks for all the advice, I feel like my decision this time was 100x more informed than the previous times at least. I'll update with progress/completion

1997 Outback Limited

2005 Volvo V70R

1994 Chevrolet Beretta
97riored is offline  
post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:47 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: east coast
Car: OBW H6 VDC, Tribeca, XT6
Posts: 12,061
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97riored View Post
Thanks for all the advice, I feel like my decision this time was 100x more informed than the previous times at least. I'll update with progress/completion
I hope you get a good one and post in 5 years how stupid boring reliable it is!? So far every one I've bought has worked out that way.

I was helping someone else - he insisted on a cheap questionable one off craigslist, i told him no way, it had melted timing belt covers!? He insisted and I helped him install it. It was knocking within minutes of starting up. They're great, but don't cheap out or take risks on any engine.


H6 OBW VDC, H6 OB Sedan, Tribeca, Lifted XT6
idosubaru is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Subaru Outback - Subaru Outback Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome