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'20 Outback Onyx XT AGM/'04 Forester XT
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Is anyone using an oil extractor on the 2.4? That's pretty normal on marine engines where you can't get under the engine. If you're DIY changing your own oil frequently, it's not the end of the world if you don't get the last bit of oil out.
On the early 2.5 turbos after Subaru had problems with banjo bolt screens clogging, and required all turbos as "severe service", they explicitly recommended against oil extractors on those engines. They felt that there were too many deposits left at the bottom of the oil pan that were not extracted. This is from an article that appeared in Drive magazine.

OIL CHANGES
Carbon deposits produced by a turbocharged engine can accumulate at the bottom of the oil pan. When changing the oil, always drain the oil through the oil drain plug hole on the oil pan. A vacuum draining device could leave carbon deposits in the oil pan and potentially contaminate the new oil.


I know that some manufacturers even recommend them but Subaru's are extremely easy to change oil on so I don't really see a benefit. On the other hand, maybe the fuel dilution in the oil from these DI engines keep the deposits from accumulating at the bottom of the oil pan. :)
 

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2020 Touring xt
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I tried using my Mityvac 7201 on the Outback and it didn't work well. The dipstick tube won't allow the hose to go straight down into the front of the oil pan.
I decided to install a Fumoto valve instead.
 

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2020 Outback Limited XT
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In my experience Honda and GM can make engines that don't use oil in 150K+ miles, so that's the standard I go by. I really like Subaru so far, and the old 1.8's I had in Subarus back in the 80's didn't use oil, but I only kept them for 50K miles, and oil change intervals back then were 3K. If a 35 year newer Subaru can't go 6K miles without using oil when a GM 5.3V8 can go 7,500 and a Honda 4 or 6 can go 10K, I might be jumping ship. There is at least one other member here whose Subaru oil consumption stopped at 70K miles, so you never know.
I had a WRX with the FA20DIT turbo engine before the outback, and that one didn't burn a drop of oil by the time I traded it in at 60k miles. I did most oil changes and always checked the level before draining the oil, and in the last change I did I took a sample for an UOA and didn't show any problem. On the other hand my wife had an Audi A3 that would burn almost a quart every 3k miles, I often wondered if I had to replace the oil at all since the service interval was 10000 miles ,and by then only 2 quarts remained from the previous change.

I am hoping the new Subaru engines are somewhat similar to the FA20 and don't burn oil, we will see.

Thanks for the insight on the viscosity changes back in the 70s and 80s, seems like the Rotella gas truck 5w30 I put it did exactly the same. I wonder if the viscosity would continue dropping if I had kept the oil for 6k miles, or perhaps it drops the most by 1k miles as you said, and then would stay stable? do you know what's most often the case?
 

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Thanks for the insight on the viscosity changes back in the 70s and 80s, seems like the Rotella gas truck 5w30 I put it did exactly the same. I wonder if the viscosity would continue dropping if I had kept the oil for 6k miles, or perhaps it drops the most by 1k miles as you said, and then would stay stable? do you know what's most often the case?
Back then it would simply degrade to the viscosity of the oil it started with, so what was marketed as a 10-40 would become a 10-30 after about 1,000 miles and stay that way until the 3000 mile changeover, whereas the "better" 10-40 oils would still have that viscosity after the full 3000 miles between changes. The test engine was a higher performance (for that day) engine that was fine with either 10-30 or 10-40. Redline on that engine was 10,000 rpm, which is high even by today's standards, but I don't know what viscosity oil the modern day version of an engine like that runs. The better oils tended to have more nickel in their formulation, but it would take someone much smarter than I am to explain why that made a difference; I seem to recall the nickel helped resist molecular breakdown under shear loads at high rpm. Remember, too, this was generations ago, so I'm not up on what makes a better oil in our current world of predominantly 0-20 motor oils.

It is interesting that both the V8 in my truck and the 2.5 in my Subaru regularly run in the 4-5000 rpm range climbing and sometimes descending hills (grade braking) and seem no worse for wear. I'm very impressed that the truck is still pretty flawless in terms of engine, transmission, lack of oil consumption, pretty much everything after 150K miles. All I do is routine maintenance including fluid changes for the transmission, transfer case, and differentials. GM claims lifetime fluid in both boxes just like Subaru does with the cvt, but we all know that's not the case if you want the lifetime of your vehicle to be upwards of 200K miles. I'll probably do the cvt and differentials in my Subaru twice as often as the truck just to be conservative. Whereas the truck has enough torque to climb most hills under 2500 rpm but occasionally up in the 4000+ range, the Subaru 2.5 has to work a little harder so it parks in the 4,000+ rpm range for longer periods of time. While the turbo would certainly climb hills at a lower sustained rpm than the 2.5, the turbo probably has more stress overall than the 2.5, so it seems reasonable that many in this thread are promoting shorter oil change intervals for the turbo. In the same way, doing shorter transmission and differential servicings on my Subaru than on my truck is probably cheap insurance to contribute to a longer life.
 

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How long between changes?
I take the fifth.

edit: Ok I confess that during my entire automotive journey despite my saying I'm a car guy, I have not always maintained strict oil change intervals like I should - I think sometimes I may have gone almost a full year before changing oil but on average about every 8-10k miles, but always full synthetic and I never ever had to top off the oil between changes. I'm being extra careful with this engine because of the relatively new direct injection engine and thinking this MIGHT be the last car I buy.
 

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2015 Outback 3.6R Package 23
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On the early 2.5 turbos after Subaru had problems with banjo bolt screens clogging, and required all turbos as "severe service", they explicitly recommended against oil extractors on those engines. They felt that there were too many deposits left at the bottom of the oil pan that were not extracted. This is from an article that appeared in Drive magazine.

OIL CHANGES
Carbon deposits produced by a turbocharged engine can accumulate at the bottom of the oil pan. When changing the oil, always drain the oil through the oil drain plug hole on the oil pan. A vacuum draining device could leave carbon deposits in the oil pan and potentially contaminate the new oil.


I know that some manufacturers even recommend them but Subaru's are extremely easy to change oil on so I don't really see a benefit. On the other hand, maybe the fuel dilution in the oil from these DI engines keep the deposits from accumulating at the bottom of the oil pan. :)
I don't know if you live somewhere with a real winter. Crawling under in my driveway in January to drain the oil isn't my concept of fun and my unheated garage is stuffed full of boats so I can't do it there. I have a 12v oil extractor in the garage. I've never owned a car with a filter on the top so I've only used the oil extractor on a marine diesel where there's no room in the bilge under it.

I'm thinking I can do every-other oil change myself in the driveway and use the dealer coupon to do the scheduled oil changes. I do engine air filters, cabin air filters, light bulbs, and wiper blades myself. My cars always have an extended warranty so I like the dealer putting it up on the lift every 6,000 miles looking for problems. The dealers are a half hour drive so a 3,000 mile oil change interval is a real inconvenience.

I'm still driving a Generation 5 so this is a hypothetical question until I trade it in. At the moment, I'd just like to know that it's possible to get most of the oil out through the dip stick hole.
 

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At the moment, I'd just like to know that it's possible to get most of the oil out through the dip stick hole.
If you measure the oil coming out you should be able to determine that, right? Worst case scenario is that you do a partial drain and fill and it won't be worse than not doing any oil change at all.
 

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Ill be doing my first oil change on the 2.4 at 3k to play it safe i will get a UOA with that to get some more data.

I'm babying it for the first 1k miles per the manual just to see what type of wear i get. I also added Hotshot secret Fr3 to the oil within the first 10 miles i put on the engine, so i will note that in the UOA as well to see how that affects the analysis.

Backstory is I run the Fr3 in my Duramax Diesel and on my turbo'd 240sx with no ill effects. I also run the hot shot secret LX4 in all my vehicles fuel as well... mostly because of the effects of dry diesel but i buy it in large quantity so why not use in my other gas engines too, even small engines (lawnmower, snow blower, chainsaw)

Hopefully my data helps others as well. i want to hit the sweet spot in OCI im most likley going to run the OE Amsoil 0-20 at either 3 or 6k depending on what i find with the TBN's on that oil. So after the first UOA at 3k ill run another at 6k to see what kind of miles i can get out of the oil and if the fr3 is helping at all.
 

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If you measure the oil coming out you should be able to determine that, right? Worst case scenario is that you do a partial drain and fill and it won't be worse than not doing any oil change at all.
The point of my post was to ask if anyone is doing it so I understand what "partial" is. I'm used to marine diesels which take a vast amount of oil and you don't care if you leave 1/2 quart of last year's oil.
 

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I don't know if you live somewhere with a real winter. Crawling under in my driveway in January to drain the oil isn't my concept of fun and my unheated garage is stuffed full of boats so I can't do it there. I have a 12v oil extractor in the garage. I've never owned a car with a filter on the top so I've only used the oil extractor on a marine diesel where there's no room in the bilge under it.

I'm thinking I can do every-other oil change myself in the driveway and use the dealer coupon to do the scheduled oil changes. I do engine air filters, cabin air filters, light bulbs, and wiper blades myself. My cars always have an extended warranty so I like the dealer putting it up on the lift every 6,000 miles looking for problems. The dealers are a half hour drive so a 3,000 mile oil change interval is a real inconvenience.

I'm still driving a Generation 5 so this is a hypothetical question until I trade it in. At the moment, I'd just like to know that it's possible to get most of the oil out through the dip stick hole.
You sound a lot like me with my 2011 Outback. I would bring it in once a year and let them do an oil change and tire rotation in the winter and I would do the other services in my driveway if I was capable and had the tools.

Air filters, bulbs, wipers, etc. I did the brakes a couple times and those were annoyingly stubborn. I clean the MAF sensor every year with the CRC cleaner - habit I picked up when my 2011 started idling like crap after the 50k mark. I also hit the terminals on the battery with a protectant spray about every 2 months.

I changed the rear diffs a couple times as well which was easy. Front diff is a little more complicated so I let the dealer do it for $75. Never touched my CVT.

My Forester had a maintenance plan included with the lease so I didn’t have to bother with it.

Why don’t you use your oil extractor and then pop the drain plug and see how much more comes out?

I’m planning to do 3000 mile intervals myself and probably will use the same method you’re doing. As time goes on, we see more UOAs and get more data. I am planning for any SP rated oil.
 

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I also added Hotshot secret Fr3 to the oil within the first 10 miles i put on the engine, so i will note that in the UOA as well to see how that affects the analysis.
There are extra good ester products out there and my guess is that the Hotshot guys buy it and blend it and bottle it rather than synthesize it themselves.

There is a Bitog thread about it, but it's not particularly technical so the jury is out but skepticism is healthy and I don't like adding mystery products to oil or gas.


A similar product is ZINC REPLACEMENT ADDITIVE (HPZ212) | (it contains no zinc)


There are also fully formulated oils that may contain these extra high quality esters - maybe Castrol Edge? Amsoil? Redline? Not sure. to me when a company makes claims without being fully transparent about what it is or on what basis/methodology they claim "reduces friction by X percent!" with too good to be true figures. Meanwhile, ExxonMobil, Idemitsu, Castrol, Warren Distributing and Valvoline or whoever don't know the "secret" to reducing friction?

My take on additives is that it's better to buy premium quality fully formulated oil than try to doctor mid-grade oil to make it extra special.

Not saying it doesn't work, but not being a chemist I'm just afraid of adding unknown things to oil not truly understanding what the potential downsides might be. A high lubricity additive might increase clumping of soot particles, or contribute to more engine deposits in the long run, or who knows?
 

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My philosophy is if something worked that well, it would just be incorporated into the manufacturer branded oil and they would charge a couple bucks more for it. Not saying the stuff hurts the engine, like friction modifiers, but if it worked that well it would just be ubiquitous

Gasoline is one thing, that’s cutthroat business, but oil is less frequent. I can justify a can of Techron every couple months.
 

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There are extra good ester products out there and my guess is that the Hotshot guys buy it and blend it and bottle it rather than synthesize it themselves.

There is a Bitog thread about it, but it's not particularly technical so the jury is out but skepticism is healthy and I don't like adding mystery products to oil or gas.


A similar product is ZINC REPLACEMENT ADDITIVE (HPZ212) | (it contains no zinc)


There are also fully formulated oils that may contain these extra high quality esters - maybe Castrol Edge? Amsoil? Redline? Not sure. to me when a company makes claims without being fully transparent about what it is or on what basis/methodology they claim "reduces friction by X percent!" with too good to be true figures. Meanwhile, ExxonMobil, Idemitsu, Castrol, Warren Distributing and Valvoline or whoever don't know the "secret" to reducing friction?

My take on additives is that it's better to buy premium quality fully formulated oil than try to doctor mid-grade oil to make it extra special.

Not saying it doesn't work, but not being a chemist I'm just afraid of adding unknown things to oil not truly understanding what the potential downsides might be. A high lubricity additive might increase clumping of soot particles, or contribute to more engine deposits in the long run, or who knows?


Thanks for the insight, i guess i can go ahead and just guinea pig it. i mean with the UOA it will help paint a better picture. I know however the stuff has made a difference in my diesel truck. its well over 300k now and ive been using the Hotshot for quite some time.. mostly for the fuel like i stated above as its obviously "dry" This all stems from my cadence in using the additives in diesel as you pretty much have to now a days with ULSD so a cetane booster makes quite the difference in it. either way ill keep contributing and hopefully my info helps in some way.
 

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The point of my post was to ask if anyone is doing it so I understand what "partial" is. I'm used to marine diesels which take a vast amount of oil and you don't care if you leave 1/2 quart of last year's oil.
In threads about the Fumoto people are sometimes worried about leaving an extra ounce of oil in the pan and I agree it's unfounded to feel like you need to get every last drop - not to mention there's still oil in the engine even if you remove the oil pan and wipe it dry. I've been obsessively reading almost every post in the 2020 section and nobody has measured how much they get from a top side dipstick drain so if you would be so kind to do it and let us know, it will help people in the future who will no doubt have the same question. I do remember people saying that they had to try various tube diameters to get down into the oil pan and that it was an issue so YMMV, though I don't remember if it was a 2020+ engine they were talking about.

Which engine do you have?
 

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I have also run motorkote in a few engines along with engine restore in some old high mileage nissans with good results. however the chlorinated paraffins in the motorkote steered me away from using them in nothing but small engines now..
 

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Thanks for the insight, i guess i can go ahead and just guinea pig it. i mean with the UOA it will help paint a better picture. I know however the stuff has made a difference in my diesel truck. its well over 300k now and ive been using the Hotshot for quite some time.. mostly for the fuel like i stated above as its obviously "dry" This all stems from my cadence in using the additives in diesel as you pretty much have to now a days with ULSD so a cetane booster makes quite the difference in it. either way ill keep contributing and hopefully my info helps in some way.
Definitely appreciate it when people try something different and report their results! The other thing is that if something works for you it doesn't matter what other people say and we're all in uncharted territory. Bitog is a prime example that despite having chemists and tribologists and whatever fancy Ph.D's may participate in there, there's no true consensus and just like in the additive threads in the end there will be skeptics and believers - we're all just trying to do what's best for our engines within reason.
 

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I’d be more worried about something kicking up from the road and taking out the Fumoto valve itself rather than the tiny amount that doesn’t make it to the spout.
Yes that is a common worry with the Fumoto and doubly so if you're an off-roader. I've never heard of it happening but it is a theoretical possibility and if you're scraping the bottom of your car you don't want anything sticking out. My Fumoto isn't hanging below the bottom of the car but I imagine going through scrub something could catch on it. I once got someone else's radio antenna stuck in my rear brake shield. Don't know how it got up in there.

Jeep guys have the same concern but they also use Fumotos:

 
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