Subaru Outback Forums banner

1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Dear All,

I am just asking about btssm as there are some issues reported with early Gen 3 Outbacks with respect to btssm.

My Outback is 2008 5MT base model with PZEV emission (CA vehicle I believe). I am considering using Vagcom 409.1 KKL - cable with btssm in an Android phone (with USM to micro-USB adaptor). According to btssm hardware requirements Vagcom 409.1 KKL is compatible with the app. What I need to know is if my 2008 PZEV 5MT is compatible with btssm and if I will be able to pull logs using the app for diagnostic purposes.

Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
Dear All,

I am just asking about btssm as there are some issues reported with early Gen 3 Outbacks with respect to btssm.

My Outback is 2008 5MT base model with PZEV emission (CA vehicle I believe). I am considering using Vagcom 409.1 KKL - cable with btssm in an Android phone (with USM to micro-USB adaptor). According to btssm hardware requirements Vagcom 409.1 KKL is compatible with the app. What I need to know is if my 2008 PZEV 5MT is compatible with btssm and if I will be able to pull logs using the app for diagnostic purposes.

Thank you.
The Vag-Com to Android phone setup should work as long as the phone is OTG compatible.

But whether or not BtSSM will work with your ECU might depend on whether the ECU has been "defined". Do you have the ECU ID number?

BtSSM will work in two modes: if the specific ECU has been "defined", it should work, and all the parameters would be available (although many will have to be set up manually as "custom fields"). If that specific ECU has not been defined, it might not work, or might work only partially, but in some cases, a "use a proxy" setting in BtSSM will provide close to, if not full, parameter coverage.

If needed only for occasional diagnostics/logging, have you considered Romraider (RomRaider - Open Source ECU Tools | RomRaider / RomRaider) ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
The Vag-Com to Android phone setup should work as long as the phone is OTG compatible.

But whether or not BtSSM will work with your ECU might depend on whether the ECU has been "defined". Do you have the ECU ID number?
Thanks Plain OM for the response. Could you please tell me how to find ECU ID number?

I do have an OTG compatible Android phone.

BtSSM will work in two modes: if the specific ECU has been "defined", it should work, and all the parameters would be available (although many will have to be set up manually as "custom fields"). If that specific ECU has not been defined, it might not work, or might work only partially, but in some cases, a "use a proxy" setting in BtSSM will provide close to, if not full, parameter coverage.

If needed only for occasional diagnostics/logging, have you considered Romraider (RomRaider - Open Source ECU Tools | RomRaider / RomRaider) ?
I need to perform infamous P0420 diagnosis. I tried to use Romraider and I do not have a Windows OS computer. All of my laptops/Desktops have Ubuntu 18.04 and I have a tough time getting VAG-COM 409.1 KKL Cable setup on those computers. Infact, I had a tough time on setting the cable serial port identification setting on a Windows laptop (not mine) as well. Therefore, I thought that it is relatively easy to setup VAG-COM 409.1 KKL Cable and btssm on my old OTG compatible Android phone (ASUS Zenfone 5).

I may use Romraider if I can get VAG-COM 409.1 KKL Cable setup on my Ubuntu laptop. (There are few threads on this topic on Ubuntu and other forums.) Especially, I will go on this route if I do not have to worry about ECU ID on RomRaider.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
Need to communicate with the ECU in the first place to get the ECU ID. However, via the ECU part numbers I found the related CAL IDs that would apply, and then searched the Romraider forums for them, but it appears they haven't been defined. (This presumes that your 2008 is up-to-date on all ECU reprogramming recalls.)

That still doesn't preclude the possibility of BtSSM working with your ECU, perhaps using a "proxy". There's a BtSSM forum at legacygt.com. The originator of BtSSM, heiche, and others might be able to help with this as well. (https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/btssm-bluetooth-adapter-app-v-2-267811.html?). Alternatively, there's a contact page on the BtSSM website.

Romraider has forums for related discussion. Might want to ask there about using other operating systems (e.g., Ubuntu), and getting the cable to work. https://www.romraider.com/forum/ (There's been some cases of eBay Vag-Com cables not working. With good cables and recent versions of Windows, it's usually more or less plug and play; Windows should recognize the cable and look for a driver in memory or on-line.)

Also, with Romraider, the program seems to automatically find an ECU definition file that works, i.e., a proxy, even if it's not the actual ECU in the car, so that there's usually pretty good functionality from the start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
RomRaider help

Romraider has forums for related discussion. Might want to ask there about using other operating systems (e.g., Ubuntu), and getting the cable to work. https://www.romraider.com/forum/ (There's been some cases of eBay Vag-Com cables not working. With good cables and recent versions of Windows, it's usually more or less plug and play; Windows should recognize the cable and look for a driver in memory or on-line.)

Also, with Romraider, the program seems to automatically find an ECU definition file that works, i.e., a proxy, even if it's not the actual ECU in the car, so that there's usually pretty good functionality from the start.
Plain OM,

I installed drivers for VAG-COM cable on a Windows 7 computer and it says that the hardware is properly installed. I also installed RomRaider and tried upload ECU definitions file. I am not sure which ECU definition file to upload for my 2008 base 5MT PZEV.

I cannot get a log file without ECU definitions.

Do you have any idea which ECU definition file to use?
How do I test the communication setup? I do see a little blue LED lighting up.

Thanks a lot for your help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
No need to look for a specific definition file; there's cumulative ECU and Logger files to first download, unzip, and save in your computer.

Instructions for setting up the files, and the files to download, are in the first post of these two threads: ECU in RomRaider ? View topic - Latest RomRaider ECU Definitions (v 0.8.3.1b 10-07-09) (choose between Romraider Standard or Romraider Metric file to download, although essentially they are the same), and Logger in RomRaider ? View topic - Latest RomRaider LOGGER Definitions (currently version 346). Follow the instructions (at the top of the first post of each thread) for opening the files, saving them, and directing the Romraider (RR) ECU Editor, and RR Logger to their respective files.

When set up, these cumulative files should be be enough to get things started with most, if not all, standard parameters and switches.

When the Logger connects to the ECU, the ECU ID number will appear at the bottom of the Logger screen. If the specific ECU had been defined, and that definition is in the downloaded file(s), the CAL ID would also appear; otherwise it will show "unknown". Once the ECU ID is known, the Romraider Forum can be searched to see if there's a specific definition file (or files) for it, although at this point, based on my search, it looks as if that's not the case.

(As your car is MT, the RR "TCU" functions, of course, will not be applicable.)

Not sure about "testing" the communications set up. When RR Logger is running it will try to connect to the ECU. The ignition has to be On for the Logger to connect to the ECU. This will be shown at the lower left of the Logger screen. The COM Port should show at the upper left. If the Logger cannot connect, sometimes there's more than one port listed in the COM Port drop down, and changing the port often completes the connection.

Hope this helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Ecu id

Plain OM,

I did some research on RomRaider forum and found that I was using an obsolete definition file. The latest ECU definition files were right there and I loaded Metric English definition file. However, I still cannot log any data and my .csv file is empty.

I also found that my ECU ID is 52221A8007. Since I am getting that information, I believe that I have established communication with ECU. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I do not have a CAL ID.

Please see the attached screen shot of RomRaider.

Let me fiddle with the setup and see how I can log data.

Thanks a lot for all your help.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
Click on Parameter List at the left, above Unselect All.

Once the lower left says to Select Parameters . . . it's indicating there's a connection, and a list to select from.

At the bottom left there's several tabs to select the way the data is displayed. Lot's of choices.

Once some parameters (and perhaps switches) are selected they will show in the screen in whatever format is chosen.

To create the .csv log, click on the Start file Log button at the top.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
That's great.

Yes, although P0420 thread is very(!) long now, that's probably a good place to deal with the code.

Did you use all the available parameters for the log, or just some selections.

I've attached a list of the parameters and switches that are listed in the FSM. The list is what the dealer's Subaru Select Monitor can access. Compare that to the list of parameters, and switches, that RR shows is available when it's connected to the ECU. (Some of the names in RR might be different that the list, but I would imagine that most, if not all, are included in RR. Of course, usually only a selection are used. If too many are selected, the rate at which the parameters are sampled is slower. In this regard, in the menu drop down at the top left, select "Enable Fast Polling" if that is available.)
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Data Log

That's great.

Yes, although P0420 thread is very(!) long now, that's probably a good place to deal with the code.

Did you use all the available parameters for the log, or just some selections.

I've attached a list of the parameters and switches that are listed in the FSM. The list is what the dealer's Subaru Select Monitor can access. Compare that to the list of parameters, and switches, that RR shows is available when it's connected to the ECU. (Some of the names in RR might be different that the list, but I would imagine that most, if not all, are included in RR. Of course, usually only a selection are used. If too many are selected, the rate at which the parameters are sampled is slower. In this regard, in the menu drop down at the top left, select "Enable Fast Polling" if that is available.)
Plain OM,

Thanks again for FSM Subaru Select Monitor parameter list. Attached is what I logged. I did not log all the parameters but most. It looks like that RomRaider has extra parameters than available. Let me edit my selection and log parameters when engine is warmed up. Hopefully, I do not have two O2 sensors synchronizing as explained by CarDoc.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
That's a good start.

I see Fine Learning Knock Correction, and IAM (Ignition Advance Multiplier) is included. Were "EGR Steps", "Knock Correction Advance" (KCA), and/or "Feedback Knock Correction" (FKC), available?

I've only had a quick look at the log data, but did notice that the CPC Valve (aka Purge Valve) is running while at idle. It starts out at a fairly low value, but goes up to 14%, while the engine speed and throttle remain low. It's unusual for the valve to be opened atall during idle.

A suggestion. In the Logger Settings drop down menu, de-select the time stamp item. That will change the Time data from min:seconds (based on the current computer clock) to cumulative time of the logging session, starting at 0 ms.

There's a few parameters that usually don't need to be routinely monitored/logged. Will get back to those later. (Fewer parameters can improve the speed at which they are sampled, and it simplifies the spreadsheet log. But too few can mean having to run another log with them added. I tend to maximize the list, leaving out ones that I now know will not be used.)

Going to research the ECU ID again. There might be a specific definition file in the RR Forum, but it's not listed in the cumulative logger definition file. Will get back to this as well.

Having the specific ECU definition adds more parameters, but your list of available parameters seems to be quite good based on what I see in the log. Perhaps provide a list of all the parameters that are available. Select all of them in the Logger screen (ignition On, engine Off, and RR connected to the ECU) and run a log session for just a few seconds. That will generate a spreadsheet file with all the parameters. Post it here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
All Parameters

That's a good start.

I see Fine Learning Knock Correction, and IAM (Ignition Advance Multiplier) is included. Were "EGR Steps", "Knock Correction Advance" (KCA), and/or "Feedback Knock Correction" (FKC), available?
I have fine learning knock correction only. Please see the attached available full parameter log file.

I've only had a quick look at the log data, but did notice that the CPC Valve (aka Purge Valve) is running while at idle. It starts out at a fairly low value, but goes up to 14%, while the engine speed and throttle remain low. It's unusual for the valve to be opened atall during idle.
Thanks for the observation. Does that mean that the purge valve is faulty?

A suggestion. In the Logger Settings drop down menu, de-select the time stamp item. That will change the Time data from min:seconds (based on the current computer clock) to cumulative time of the logging session, starting at 0 ms.
Will do this next time. Thanks for the advise.

There's a few parameters that usually don't need to be routinely monitored/logged. Will get back to those later. (Fewer parameters can improve the speed at which they are sampled, and it simplifies the spreadsheet log. But too few can mean having to run another log with them added. I tend to maximize the list, leaving out ones that I now know will not be used.)
I was thinking about reducing the parameter list. I thought that A/F ratio corrections 2 and 3 are not that important.

Going to research the ECU ID again. There might be a specific definition file in the RR Forum, but it's not listed in the cumulative logger definition file. Will get back to this as well.

Having the specific ECU definition adds more parameters, but your list of available parameters seems to be quite good based on what I see in the log. Perhaps provide a list of all the parameters that are available. Select all of them in the Logger screen (ignition On, engine Off, and RR connected to the ECU) and run a log session for just a few seconds. That will generate a spreadsheet file with all the parameters. Post it here.
Attached, please find the overall list of parameters that I can log. Thanks again for your help.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
The list of parameters in the log is pretty good, although, the data for several is quite odd. Was this with the ignition On and engine Off? I have a vague recollection that odd numbers might happen when RR is using proxy definitions with the engine off. I did more searching for the ECU ID, and found a thread in the RR Forum that appears to have the ECU definition file.

The thread is RomRaider ? View topic - def request. 2009 Legacy 2.5i MT EZ1GC00A. In the last post, your ECU ID is paired with EZ1GC00A, which is the CAL ID I verified in another source that applies also to the 2008 Outback 2.5, non-turbo, MT, CAL-spec. The ECU definition file is the second Attachment in the first post, identified as "RR_EZ1GC00A.xml [686.99 KiB]"

Having the specific ECU definition file is good, but I understand there also has to be a corresponding Logger definition file included in the cumulative Logger definitions file. I looked there and haven't found this ECU there. However, I would still suggest downloading that CAL ID file, and, the same as was done with the ECU definition file before, save it in the same folder as the previous def file, and link it into the RR ECU Editor File Manager. (Don't remove the previous files; leave them.) Then try the RR Logger connected to the ECU (ignition on). If the CAL ID now shows EZGC001A, then it's probably good. Next is to look at the parameters . . .

In the list of parameters on the left side of the screen, see if some of them might appear with different names, and look for additional ones, such as Feedback Knock Correction. Also, in the TOOLS drop down menu, click on Learning Table Values. RR will ask if you want to stop current logging -- yes. If it gets that far, after a few moments RR will display a table of A/F Learning values relative to MAF ranges, and a grid of Fine Learning Knock Correction vs. Engine Load. The augmented list of parameters and the LTV are additional "extended" parameters etc., that could be of help down the road. Also, now, with the ignition on but engine off, the data for all the parameters should be more "reasonable".

We'll get back to sifting through all the available parameters to get to more manageable number after we confirm if the file works.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
. . .

Thanks for the observation. Does that mean that the purge valve is faulty?
No, not necessarily. That number is looking at the control signal the ECM is sending to the purge valve solenoid. It's not indicating where the valve actually is positioned. It was strange to see the control signal off zero, and actually quite high. We'll see if it appears that way again during an idle session if the new ECU file works.

I was thinking about reducing the parameter list. I thought that A/F ratio corrections 2 and 3 are not that important.
There's no #2s. A/F Correction #3 is based on feedback from the Rear O2 Sensor and in some cases can help diagnose issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Logger Definition File

Thanks a lot Plain OM.

Updated ECU definitions with correct log file from RR thread.

Quick question. I still get an error when I open RR logger saying that "Card definition file not found".

Is this the same definition file that you specified? or something else?

Thanks
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
Thanks a lot Plain OM.

Updated ECU definitions with correct log file from RR thread.

Quick question. I still get an error when I open RR logger saying that "Card definition file not found".

Is this the same definition file that you specified? or something else?

Thanks
No, it's not the same. There is a separate "cars" definition file. It's used to generate simulated dynafmometer graphs in RR. It's not necessary otherwise. Nevertheless, it can be downloaded and saved in the same folder on your computer where the other Logger definitions files are stored. The name is "cars_def.xml".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Logs with correct definition files

Thank you for clarification Plain OM.

I loaded the correct ECU definition file (EZ1GC00A.xml) and acquired a couple of logs tonight. First one is with just the key in at the start up position with the engine not running. The second log was taken with engine running while warming up.

Tomorrow, I will acquire a couple (or more) logs while driving.

I was thinking of plotting A/F ratio sensor (i.e front O2 sensor) on top of rear O2 sensor on the same plot. Just looking at the data, I do see that A/F ratio sensor Lambda value is more or less constant (this sensor is new) and rear O2 voltage fluctuates a lot with unusually high voltage. Also A/F ratio sensor current is 0mA and I wonder why.

Please let me know what parameters to plot.

Thanks again for your help.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,405 Posts
There are still parameters with blatently incorrect data; e.g., in the engine running log, the Rear O2 Sensor voltage is reaching over 300 V, Accelerator Pedal angle is well off zero but should be zero if the pedal was not being pressed, and Manifold Absolute Pressure is moving between zero and 250 kPa (whereas Atmospheric Pressure is 100 kPa). Something isn't right.

The A/F Sensor current is off zero only when the air-fuel ratio isn't at the nominal 14.6:1, or the Lamda isn't at the nominal 1.00. The current is what signals the ECU to change the fuel trim to bring it back to nominal. Really odd numbers in various parameters were in the earlier log as well, so there seems to be a problem in the connection with and/or data collection from, the ECU, and the absence of any indication of A/F Sensor current could be part of that.

Did RR Logger indicate the CAL ID at the bottom of the screen, next to the ECU ID?

Let's reduce the number of parameters. Perhaps there's too many, or there's an interaction (e.g., conflict) between some that's causing the data to be way off.

Clear all the Parameters and Switches.

Then select only:

A/F Correction #1 (%)
A/F Correction #3 (32-bit ECU) (%)
A/F Sensor #1 (Lambda)
Accelerator Pedal Angle (%)
Battery Voltage (V)
Coolant Temperature (C)
Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)
Engine Speed (rpm)
Fuel Injector #1 Pulse Width (ms)
Ignition Total Timing (degrees)
Intake Air Temperature (C)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (kPa)
Mass Airflow (g/s)
Oil Temperature (C)
Rear O2 Sensor (V)
Throttle Opening Angle (%)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
523 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
New Data

There are still parameters with blatently incorrect data; e.g., in the engine running log, the Rear O2 Sensor voltage is reaching over 300 V, Accelerator Pedal angle is well off zero but should be zero if the pedal was not being pressed, and Manifold Absolute Pressure is moving between zero and 250 kPa (whereas Atmospheric Pressure is 100 kPa). Something isn't right.
New idling log shows different numbers. Pressure recorded by MAF sensor (which is new) is around 35 kPa. I am not sure if RR is reading right parameter here. I do have a new air filter (not clogged) as well.

The A/F Sensor current is off zero only when the air-fuel ratio isn't at the nominal 14.6:1, or the Lamda isn't at the nominal 1.00. The current is what signals the ECU to change the fuel trim to bring it back to nominal. Really odd numbers in various parameters were in the earlier log as well, so there seems to be a problem in the connection with and/or data collection from, the ECU, and the absence of any indication of A/F Sensor current could be part of that.
New idling log shows A/F labmda within 0.99-1.01 and 1.00 most of the time. Please keep in mind that this log is acquired during warm up.

Did RR Logger indicate the CAL ID at the bottom of the screen, next to the ECU ID?
Initially, I had a tough time getting RR read the new ECU ID file. As of the previous data set and current data, yes, RR logger did show CAL ID and ECU ID as shown in attached screen shots.

Let's reduce the number of parameters. Perhaps there's too many, or there's an interaction (e.g., conflict) between some that's causing the data to be way off.

Clear all the Parameters and Switches.

Then select only:

A/F Correction #1 (%)
A/F Correction #3 (32-bit ECU) (%)
A/F Sensor #1 (Lambda)
Accelerator Pedal Angle (%)
Battery Voltage (V)
Coolant Temperature (C)
Engine Load (Calculated) (g/rev)
Engine Speed (rpm)
Fuel Injector #1 Pulse Width (ms)
Ignition Total Timing (degrees)
Intake Air Temperature (C)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (kPa)
Mass Airflow (g/s)
Oil Temperature (C)
Rear O2 Sensor (V)
Throttle Opening Angle (%)
As shown in the current log, only the above parameters were acquired and the data are significantly different from previous logs (not sure why, but, could be incorrect decoding of digital data). Please let me know if these numbers make any sense. I am especially concerned with low manifold pressure at idling around 35kPa.

Thanks a lot again for all your help.
 

Attachments

1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top