Subaru Outback Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hoping for some constructive conversations about choosing between two vehicles. Have been reading over several of the older posts on the forum comparing the two. Unfortunately I like to plan well in advance to get exactly what I want, and the reality is that I'll probably be looking to trade my current ride, 2011 Outback Limited 2.5, in about 2 years, maybe slightly before that.

I know that many things can change going forward, but I figured this was a good starting point. I'll look to test drive both models as soon as they're on the Global Platform. Who knows, the 3.6 might not even be offered in the refresh for the Gen6...

Financials will allow for me to step up slightly for a car to better performance. As such, I'm considering the 3.6R Outback or I'm considering the 2.0 XT Forester. I'd probably go with a Touring Trim for both, though the OB is not available in the Magnetite Gray that I'd like, so I might have to go 3.6 Limited and do some options to upgrade; The Forester XT is available in a great number of exterior and interior options, so I would probably go Touring here.

Both cars have the high torque CVT, so that's good, happy about the beefier internals even though I drive with a pretty light foot.

I believe the XT will cost slightly more in fuel because of the Premium Octane difference; presently, at Costco, it's $2.43 for regular, and $2.96 for premium. I'm going to round to $2.50 and $3 for easier math.

At a full tank on the OB, it's an 18.5 gallon tank, that's $46 to fill from empty; the Foz is $47. It's a difference of about $1.50 per tank. Economy is comparable, 20/27 for the 3.6 and 23/27 for the XT. That makes range around 370/500 for the 3.6 and 365/425. My commute is mixed almost 60/40 highway/city so I'd say range is pretty much a wash.

The 3.6 has a slight cost premium, seems like the car itself will cost about $2000 more; the maintenance will also cost more. 3.6 requires 6.9 qts of oil for change; XT requires 5.4; 3.6, obviously requires 2 more spark plugs... I like doing my own oil changes, the XT seems easier to do since the filter is mounted on top and I can put a Fumoto on the bottom (haven't put a Fumoto on my Outback because I have to crawl under anyway for the filter...)

I'm a little concerned on the turbo because it's "just another moving part that can break"... I've never owned a turbo vehicle before so this is new to me and I don't know any additional extra maintenance that I would need to look out for going forward.

Family wise, this will not be our vacation mobile. My wife has a 3rd row SUV that we use for the big vacations so this vehicle will be basically my daily driver, and I will regularly have our two kids in the car seats in the back to/from school and around town.

I don't park on the street so parallel parking is largely irrelevant, and we have a 4-car driveway so space isn't a concern.

My wife previously drove an 09 Legacy which was a blast. While my 11 Outback is great, and reliable, it's not exactly what I'd call sporty.

Regarding options I'd be getting the same ones on either model; rear bumper protector, seatback protector, side dimming mirrors, homelink rear view, side body molding, cargo tray, wheel well trim, EyeSight (if I got the Limited 3.6)

I do like the rear vents in the Outback for the passengers in the back, and I like that the Touring trim has one-touch for all four windows and the side mirror signals built-in. I hate that the Touring trim for the OB only comes in a few colors (blah) and forces you into Java Brown Leather. I'd prefer Gray, Black, or White (or would consider Pure Red if they had a special edition) with Black interior. I also don't like that the Touring has no crossbars, not that I use them often, usually only around the holidays to transport a Christmas tree back to the house, but it would be "just one more thing" to have to do/remember to do whereas the other trims have them built in.

I like that the Forester has that great big panoramic moonroof and some more headroom for me in the front, but it seems like it's a little tighter in the rear seats for the passengers. In terms of cargo I very rarely fill it, and if I had to do something in a pinch, I would switch with my wife's car for a few days.

I would be looking for this car to carry me through for the next 10-15 years.

Thoughts, comments, questions? Thank you for your advice.
 

·
On the Super Mod Squad
2002 3.0 VDC Wag + 2018 2.5 Leg Ltd
Joined
·
26,302 Posts
today I wonder if there will be any 2020 subaru with a 3.6 engine.

or will it be 2.4 turbo as the hp/torque choice. (only choice for power).

I suppose that subaru will tell us that when they show if the 3.6 will be available in the Ascent.

I guess they could also change their minds based on how well the new 2.4 turbo actually performs when it gets into production cars.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
today I wonder if there will be any 2020 subaru with a 3.6 engine.

or will it be 2.4 turbo as the hp/torque choice.

I suppose that subaru will tell us that when they show if the 3.6 will be available in the Ascent.

I guess they could also change their minds based on how well the new 2.4 turbo actually performs when it gets into production cars.
Yes I'm curious also. Obviously you can't buy what's not offered. Assuming they are both around do you have any input?
 

·
Registered
2016 Outback Premium 2.5, Ice Silver
Joined
·
893 Posts
Two completely different vehicles! You like higher/shorter/bumpier? Than the Forester for you. Otherwise stick with the Outback.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Two completely different vehicles! You like higher/shorter/bumpier? Than the Forester for you. Otherwise stick with the Outback.
Well, yeah, I mean both are touted to have a "command" driving position, and the G5 is a little taller than my G4, not sure what you mean by bumpier - you're saying because the Foz has more roll because it's higher, or you're saying the OB is better over bumps because of the longer wheelbase?
 

·
Registered
2016 Outback Premium 2.5, Ice Silver
Joined
·
893 Posts
Well, yeah, I mean both are touted to have a "command" driving position, and the G5 is a little taller than my G4, not sure what you mean by bumpier - you're saying because the Foz has more roll because it's higher, or you're saying the OB is better over bumps because of the longer wheelbase?
I bought a 2015 Ltd 2.5 Forester, traded it in 1yr later for a 2016 Prem Outback. All I can say is for you to drive the vehicles your thinking about to feel how they drive. I prefer a smoother drive and the Outback was such an improvement over the Forester.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I bought a 2015 Ltd 2.5 Forester, traded it in 1yr later for a 2016 Prem Outback. All I can say is for you to drive the vehicles your thinking about to feel how they drive. I prefer a smoother drive and the Outback was such an improvement over the Forester.
Thanks. I appreciate the first hand feedback from both models. I'm wondering if the Global Platform will be a game changer for the Foz (I expect it to be!)
 
  • Like
Reactions: jdog1

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Been reading a lot about the DI engines. Seems like all of them (not just Subaru) have some issues with carbon build up that requires either a $400-500 "walnut blasting" service every 30k or use of Subaru "top engine cleaner" and "carbon cleaner" administered via Subaru tool that costs around $40. Apparently this is big in Australia and Europe. Maybe there's a difference in quality of petrol/gas there.

Leaning towards 3.6...
 

·
Registered
Lawn ornament XT
Joined
·
14,366 Posts
Make peace with turbos.

Nearly every mass-market automaker is standardizing on small, high-efficiency engines with turbochargers.

Intake fouling is a real concern on GDI engines, though there have been some nice advances with a part-time throttle body injector for cleaning purposes.

I'd give very long odds on the Subaru 3.6 surviving into the next generation of the Outback. Admittedly there are lots of unknowns there, but here's my take:

The CAFE standards as publicly laid out for the next few years are practically an epitaph for the 3.6. Now, those standards may be revised by the political process, but we also don't know how far along the 2020 design is. If they've already committed to the dimensions for an engine bay too small, well...

I would expect that the Outback's participation in the company's global platform would be improved through greater commonality which I tend to think scores a point against the H6.

As much as I like them, I'll be shocked if the H6 is available past the 2019 model year.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Make peace with turbos.

Nearly every mass-market automaker is standardizing on small, high-efficiency engines with turbochargers.

Intake fouling is a real concern on GDI engines, though there have been some nice advances with a part-time throttle body injector for cleaning purposes.

I'd give very long odds on the Subaru 3.6 surviving into the next generation of the Outback. Admittedly there are lots of unknowns there, but here's my take:

The CAFE standards as publicly laid out for the next few years are practically an epitaph for the 3.6. Now, those standards may be revised by the political process, but we also don't know how far along the 2020 design is. If they've already committed to the dimensions for an engine bay too small, well...

I would expect that the Outback's participation in the company's global platform would be improved through greater commonality which I tend to think scores a point against the H6.

As much as I like them, I'll be shocked if the H6 is available past the 2019 model year.
**** it all. I'll have to see if I can accelerate my timetable slightly. I know that you can generally place orders on the current MY though around April/May; with any luck we'll know WTF they're doing with the 2020 remake at the Javitz Auto Show a few months earlier... If I ordered a vehicle in mid April, and it took 2-3 months to build, then I wouldn't be making payments until June/July, right? That seems like it's doable. I'd have to sacrifice the global platform, but at least I could get the H6.

Why don't they go diesel? If CAFE is all about BS miles per gallon, why don't they add a few diesel options to the fleet, that'll push the MPG's into the mid 40's, minimum...

Mazda's coming out with a Skyactiv-D that requires no post-emissions treatment, that'll be a game changer if they can pull it off.
 

·
Registered
Lawn ornament XT
Joined
·
14,366 Posts
**** it all. I'll have to see if I can accelerate my timetable slightly. I know that you can generally place orders on the current MY though around April/May; with any luck we'll know WTF they're doing with the 2020 remake at the Javitz Auto Show a few months earlier... If I ordered a vehicle in mid April, and it took 2-3 months to build, then I wouldn't be making payments until June/July, right? That seems like it's doable. I'd have to sacrifice the global platform, but at least I could get the H6.

Why don't they go diesel? If CAFE is all about BS miles per gallon, why don't they add a few diesel options to the fleet, that'll push the MPG's into the mid 40's, minimum...

Mazda's coming out with a Skyactiv-D that requires no post-emissions treatment, that'll be a game changer if they can pull it off.
Subaru already has a diesel. I don't know specifically why they haven't introduced it to the US market, but there is a long list of possibilities.

I'd be certain they don't want to pay for the engineering required to make it run cleanly enough for USA emissions. VW spent a fortune toward that end, and (infamously) couldn't do it without cheating. Subaru has probably decided there's an easier nut to crack in making a turbo GDI or hybrid engine.

Toyota owns a 16% slice of Subaru, and we don't know what this really entails in terms of technology sharing. That business hookup got us the BRZ/FT86, and personally I suspect it also resulted in the end of Toyota Venza production- at one time the Outback's closest competitor.

Toyota has much more experience building diesels, but their powertrain roadmap in the USA is crystal clear: Gas/electric hybrid today, fuel-cell tomorrow. No diesel ever. I think they want Subaru to line up behind that and they'll use the bank they share to enforce it.

Subaru dealer service bays are already stressed to the limit due to recent sales growth. Adding a diesel powerplant to the mix is going to require a significant amount of training and hiring on top of what they're struggling with now- certainly more than would be true for gas/electric hybrid. It's one thing to build & sell it, yet another to support it in the field. Talk to a Jeep CRD owner.

I'm not sure I get what Mazda is up to with their diesel. They made big headlines earlier this year with their HCCI engine breakthrough, which burns gasoline in a compression cycle a la diesel. Diesel-style efficiency with the fuel availability of gasoline! Could be great. Naturally it requires direct injection and forced induction to operate.

I'm not positive, but I don't think the Subaru EE20 turbodiesel has yet been mated with a CVT. As far as I know it's currently only available with a 5-speed manual, and it has earned a reputation for breaking clutches. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the torque delivery curve is just plain incompatible with Subaru's USA transmissions.
 

·
Master Caster
2005 XT, Mildly Modified...2006 XT Limited, Highly Modifed
Joined
·
16,140 Posts
Honestly...

Given the 5EAT is no longer offered. I would go with the 2.0 XT. The 2.0 turbo is a better design vs the 2.5 T. This new platform will prove to be far more reliable with less issues commonly posted regarding reliability and failure.

I hate to burst you bubble. If you are going to drive the 3.6 with any enthusiasm. You need premium fuel. Just log any 3.6, they knock and ping all day log...cruising on the highway...under load. It's not enough to hurt the car. It compensates like crazy.

Using the premium fuel as a factor is silly IMPO. I can say, if you live in altitude at all, you want the turbo...
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
@rasterman Thanks that makes sense. I know the global market is different and outside of North America people love diesels. I hate what CAFE is forcing a niche manufacturer like Subaru to do. They're AWD so they're already at a fuel economy disadvantage. I would hate to see them launch an impractical coupe hybrid of some sort just to hit some arbitrary number.


Honestly...

Given the 5EAT is no longer offered. I would go with the 2.0 XT. The 2.0 turbo is a better design vs the 2.5 T. This new platform will prove to be far more reliable with less issues commonly posted regarding reliability and failure.

I hate to burst you bubble. If you are going to drive the 3.6 with any enthusiasm. You need premium fuel. Just log any 3.6, they knock and ping all day log...cruising on the highway...under load. It's not enough to hurt the car. It compensates like crazy.

Using the premium fuel as a factor is silly IMPO. I can say, if you live in altitude at all, you want the turbo...
Are you talking about the 2.5T in the STi? I'm unfamiliar. Wasn't sure if this was the one they are planning for the Ascent or not. Hopefully not, because the STi one has a timing belt.

I've never heard of any pinging or knocking without Premium for the EZ36D. This would be the first, unless I misunderstood you talking about the 2.5T? From everything I've read the EZ is a bulletproof workhorse of a machine.

That being said I've never driven a 6 that likes to be redlined if that's what you mean by enthusiasm...

I guess we'll see what Mother Subie has in store for us. In the meantime I will start getting my ducks in a row for the 2019 3.6 in the Spring of 19 in case they discontinue it in 20.
 

·
Registered
Lawn ornament XT
Joined
·
14,366 Posts
@rasterman Thanks that makes sense. I know the global market is different and outside of North America people love diesels. I hate what CAFE is forcing a niche manufacturer like Subaru to do. They're AWD so they're already at a fuel economy disadvantage. I would hate to see them launch an impractical coupe hybrid of some sort just to hit some arbitrary number.
From what I've read, Subaru is kicking eco-butt with their 2.0 & 2.5L models. They are doing so well on their targets that they get around $1k per car in credits that they can re-sell to other manufacturers. That's $1k they don't have to charge you.

The problem is the 3.6 models. They're kind of hopeless in terms of qualifying for any CAFE credits, so the best they can do is to limit their availability via pricing, and (for them) that's not exactly a bad thing at least until the volume drops so low that they lose economy of scale.
 

·
Registered
2014 3.6R Limited
Joined
·
1,029 Posts
Honestly...

Given the 5EAT is no longer offered. I would go with the 2.0 XT. The 2.0 turbo is a better design vs the 2.5 T. This new platform will prove to be far more reliable with less issues commonly posted regarding reliability and failure.

I hate to burst you bubble. If you are going to drive the 3.6 with any enthusiasm. You need premium fuel. Just log any 3.6, they knock and ping all day log...cruising on the highway...under load. It's not enough to hurt the car. It compensates like crazy.

Using the premium fuel as a factor is silly IMPO. I can say, if you live in altitude at all, you want the turbo...
I have never heard my 3.6 knock or ping under any situation and I burn regular!
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Yeah. I hear you. I think the 3.6 is such a niche market that many people that purchase it would continue to do so even though it had a "surcharge" caused by the Cafe standards...

Have to wait and see, which often is the hardest part. Just frustrated because my current Outback, while great, was a leftover from the 11 MY and I wanted to have all my ducks in a row going forward for next time.
 

·
Master Caster
2005 XT, Mildly Modified...2006 XT Limited, Highly Modifed
Joined
·
16,140 Posts
I have never heard my 3.6 knock or ping under any situation and I burn regular!
It's not a XJ Cherokee, which sounds like a paint can.

You can't hear it. (its hard to hear, hard to hear in my turbo also, even with a gromet hole open in the fire wall)

Log it....

Knock Sum
Feedback Knock Correction
Fine Learning Knock Correction
Timing
 

·
Master Caster
2005 XT, Mildly Modified...2006 XT Limited, Highly Modifed
Joined
·
16,140 Posts
@rasterman Thanks that makes sense. I know the global market is different and outside of North America people love diesels. I hate what CAFE is forcing a niche manufacturer like Subaru to do. They're AWD so they're already at a fuel economy disadvantage. I would hate to see them launch an impractical coupe hybrid of some sort just to hit some arbitrary number.




Are you talking about the 2.5T in the STi? I'm unfamiliar. Wasn't sure if this was the one they are planning for the Ascent or not. Hopefully not, because the STi one has a timing belt.

I've never heard of any pinging or knocking without Premium for the EZ36D. This would be the first, unless I misunderstood you talking about the 2.5T? From everything I've read the EZ is a bulletproof workhorse of a machine.

That being said I've never driven a 6 that likes to be redlined if that's what you mean by enthusiasm...

I guess we'll see what Mother Subie has in store for us. In the meantime I will start getting my ducks in a row for the 2019 3.6 in the Spring of 19 in case they discontinue it in 20.
So I work with a tuner, and I know many others with 3.6 (both Gen4 and Gen5) who also work with the same tuner. Almost the 1st thing our tuner will say when vieweing logs..."I see lots of pinging, check for leaks"

Some of us, like me, have logged very extensively. I am learning interpretation I have looked at stock logs, tuned logs ... 2.0T 2.5 2.5T 3.0, 3.6 and We see it.

I will also stress that each car is different, on a small scale. Gas formulations across the country are also slightly different. I realize Subaru does not require premium fuel in the 3.6, and no longer suggests it. But The data doesn't lie. I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with this. The car running premium will knock less and thus, compensate less in order to operate as designed. The car running regular will have to compensate more, and at times will be right on the edge.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx Edition XT
Joined
·
1,885 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Interesting. So your thought is that the higher compression in the EZ somehow is triggering some type of detonation which could be avoided by something above 87.

I know the EZ30 used to require premium and Sub was under some pressure when they developed the 36 to use 87.

The manual also says "87 or higher" so I guess you won't be wrong to say to use 93; I guess the difference is that Sub would be on the hook for any warranty repairs causes solely by 87. But we would see more of these problems wouldn't we? I know the EZ only accounts for around 10-15% of the OB sales but still... no TSB saying use 89 or 93 if customer had issues?

I mean the computer is compensating like you said, so that's working as intended, right?

What are the results of detonation of the computer isn't able to change the timing to compensate for the preignition? Cylinder/Piston failure?
 

·
Master Caster
2005 XT, Mildly Modified...2006 XT Limited, Highly Modifed
Joined
·
16,140 Posts
. But we would see more of these problems wouldn't we? I know the EZ only accounts for around 10-15% of the OB sales but still... no TSB saying use 89 or 93 if customer had issues?

It doesn't casue problems until there is 180K miles (random high mileage) When you sell the car to a 26 year old and 4 month later they are dealing with burnt valves. So as far as new owners go, there are no issues.

I mean the computer is compensating like you said, so that's working as intended, right?

Yes. I guess. It is the difference of your system works really hard on the edge, and sometimes misses things. Or would you rather have it comfortable and alert to catch what it needs easier.

What are the results of detonation of the computer isn't able to change the timing to compensate for the preignition? Cylinder/Piston failure?
The pinging is damaging to the piston really, if it were a turbo motor then the rings lands are the big worry. The 3.6 will just absorb the higher compression temps and keep going.

Later in life it might need a valve job.
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top