[avenger09123]

Hi Folks,

I am trying to diagnose a vibration my wife's 2012 OB 2.5i CVT has had since about 30,000 miles. I managed to get rid of the very bad one in the front with a new lower control arms that physically had the front of the car moving side to side. The one in the rear has been irritating but overall not a dealbreaker, just a tad bothersome when you can't turn up the radio. New shocks are going in on the rear since I did the fronts and the damping difference is worth the work.

Anyways I did some of the tests on the highway today (changing lanes quickly to stress the inner cv's to see if the vibration increases or decreases) and the outer CV tests of quick accelerations between 10 and 20, 20 and 30, 30 and 40, and then turns listening for a clunk. Nothing on the front much changed.

However I got under the car today and spied on some of the bushings (I learned that subaru no longer sells the rear knuckle bushings themselves anymore, the rat bastards), and did an in/out, up/down, and forward back grip on the cv shafts, and the fronts were nice and tight with absolutely no play, but the rear shafts both moved in and out of the ends with enough room to make an audible clunk, but no other movement in them.

Does this sound like a bad rear CV shaft? Are they supposed to have this much play. All CV shafts are original to the car currently at 76,000mi.

 

[77'911]

Have you checked the motor and trans mounts? Our 2011 2.5 CVT has 50k on it, and they are shot. They felt bad on our car after 20k (driveline slop). I plan on doing them after the tie rod assembly replacement(one thing at a time).
Usually, when CV joints go bad, they start to click on tight turns. In the past, I typically replaced the front axles on our Audi Quattro's at 80-85k , to keep a new feel to them.
Regards

 

[traildogck]

Have you checked the motor and trans mounts? Our 2011 2.5 CVT has 50k on it, and they are shot. They felt bad on our car after 20k (driveline slop).

Hmm ... sounds like the CVT needs a CKE insert made....

 

[avenger09123]

Hmm ... sounds like the CVT needs a CKE insert made....

Care to educate? a CKE insert? A quick googly of CVT CKE and Subaru brought up an attempted 100mpg car from CKE Industries.

 

[traildogck]

Care to educate? a CKE insert? A quick googly of CVT CKE and Subaru brought up an attempted 100mpg car from CKE Industries.

Hahaha. I'm surprised there is anybody left who isn't aware of my philandering.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172995530272?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

My venture is pretty small time at the moment.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...6-subaru-specialty-products-tdck-cke-ssp.html

I have not developed one for the CVT, I did not think the "constantly variable" would have the need to ensure against drive-line clunks and lash. Apparently this is not the case if folks are wearing out the mount along with motor mounts.

At 1st look at the CVT mount, it looks very, VERY close to the voided areas in the 4/5EAT. If not exactly the same. I am going to pick one up and see, I may just copy it anyway....BTW, I make them in black. (stealth) also

 

[idosubaru]

Does this sound like a bad rear CV shaft? Are they supposed to have this much play. All CV shafts are original to the car currently at 76,000mi.

no. cv's aren't rigid so the play you're mentioning isn't surprising or an indicator, that's why they're both doing it.

regreased/rebooted Subaru OEM CV's routinely last the life of the vehicle and are pointless to replace on Subaru's. 200,000+ mile original CV's...yawn, no big deal.

 

[idosubaru]

Have you checked the motor and trans mounts? Our 2011 2.5 CVT has 50k on it, and they are shot.

Nice catch and report - what symptoms and how were you able to isolate the engine/trans mounts?

I typically replaced the front axles on our Audi Quattro's at 80-85k , to keep a new feel to them.
Regards

Subaru axles routinely last the life of the vehicle with zero issues. Lots of other things will degrade before Subaru axles begin to think about it if they're properly cleaned/regreased/rebooted.

 

[avenger09123]

Hahaha. I'm surprised there is anybody left who isn't aware of my philandering.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172995530272?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

My venture is pretty small time at the moment.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...6-subaru-specialty-products-tdck-cke-ssp.html

I have not developed one for the CVT, I did not think the "constantly variable" would have the need to ensure against drive-line clunks and lash. Apparently this is not the case if folks are wearing out the mount along with motor mounts.

At 1st look at the CVT mount, it looks very, VERY close to the voided areas in the 4/5EAT. If not exactly the same. I am going to pick one up and see, I may just copy it anyway....BTW, I make them in black. (stealth) also

I'm very late to the forums, but courtesy of finishing up my degree and the rising occurrance of issues from an otherwise fairly trouble free car. And you know the rules with the mounts, once one fails the other goes on it's way much faster until you've got a complete failure that started from front to back. I'm a fan of poly but my wife likes comfort and it's mostly her car, so I can't go too nuts.

I just checked between the years. According to the parts diagrams and the aftermarket parts suppliers, the 2008-2012 series trans anchors/mounts are the same between the auto and the cvt. The manual is just missing the center stud. The 2013-2016 appears to be the same but they have a different part number. There are so many friggin failure points in these cars it's nearly impossible to figure out initially what the problem is. Well, new shocks are going in in the rear after the end of the month, and hopefully that helps clear up some issues, and let me further diagnose issues. I originally thought it was the trailing arm bushings since they are both cracked (the one in the knuckle moreso).

I see you are in Denver, do you do pickups? I would like to at least do inserts for the trans anchor mount and the rear diff if you have that one too. Medium stiffness. I'm all for shoring up issues with the car, as it's been very good to us so far (except for the one time I got stuck in 6" of slush and had to be pulled out because the CVT was being a little bitch about everything).

 

[avenger09123]

Have you checked the motor and trans mounts? Our 2011 2.5 CVT has 50k on it, and they are shot. They felt bad on our car after 20k (driveline slop). I plan on doing them after the tie rod assembly replacement(one thing at a time).
Usually, when CV joints go bad, they start to click on tight turns. In the past, I typically replaced the front axles on our Audi Quattro's at 80-85k , to keep a new feel to them.
Regards

That lines up with ours when it started doing the rear shimmy on a cross-country trip...I really didn't expect them to be since every car I've owned it has lasted to approx 100k or 120k before needing replacements. But you bring up a good point. As far as I am aware, there's 1 in the front and 1 on each side, and then the trans mount that was mentioned by the other dude.

Personally, I don't care about vibration so I'd just go solid or poly's but it's primarily my wife's car so OEM or OEM w/ poly inserts are the route's I'd need to go to avoid listening to complaining.

 

[subiesailor]

Polybushings vs factory bushings will not improve ride quality. They will make it worse. They also dont last as long as the factory stuff.

Any aftermarket axles? That would be number 1 suspect. The bushings and mounts on both the family 2010’s are intact. My 10 sees lots of heavily packed trips and tows trailers. My only big complaint is the flexy wagon platform and the floaty under damped ride which was all addressed in the 2015’s.

I have had a bad tire go out of round and had to stay on the backend given it shook the front end too much. Had a similar issue with our VW.

 

[traildogck]

Polybushings vs factory bushings will not improve ride quality. They will make it worse. They also dont last as long as the factory stuff.

It depends where and how you use it. How hard it is. And they improve performance, not comfort. However, the trans mount insert for example "improves" ride quality by lessening driveline movements and lash right under the cabin.

Durability also depends on materials. I have seen what 50K miles does to a 2013 OB front sway bar bushing. I fully expect the materials to perform better an "just a cheap poly". I have specification data on my materials and this high impact urethane is tougher than rubber.

 

[traildogck]

I see you are in Denver, do you do pickups? I would like to at least do inserts for the trans anchor mount and the rear diff if you have that one too. Medium stiffness. I'm all for shoring up issues with the car, as it's been very good to us so far (except for the one time I got stuck in 6" of slush and had to be pulled out because the CVT was being a little bitch about everything).

I am only interested in the void, if that is the same. Since the insert fills the void.

As far as other parts, I suppose I can develop anything. In the case of the CVT trans mount insert. It will require purchasing a new mount. Using it as a mold, and casting the void into a master cast of the insert. The master cast then gets encased in mold material (2 step process in itself) Then master mold can used to reproduce the the inserts.

As you see the $ in original part, master materials and prototype effort is considerable for something that can old be sold for $30.

However, The 4/5EAT trans insert and the 2000-2009 rear sway bar reinforcement brackets were developed by my for my cars out of my own needs. Over the past several years, I have been asked to consider making bushings. Here's the deal tho. I don't have any interest in making (or competing) with the big boys who make bushings. I can't. Mine is a craft/hand operation. Not mass produced.

Currently there are very limited aftermarket performance parts for the newer Gens. I will fill holes where I think my products can be a benefit. But I won't double up on something else a huge manufacturer makes.

 

[avenger09123]

Polybushings vs factory bushings will not improve ride quality. They will make it worse. They also dont last as long as the factory stuff.

Any aftermarket axles? That would be number 1 suspect. The bushings and mounts on both the family 2010’s are intact. My 10 sees lots of heavily packed trips and tows trailers. My only big complaint is the flexy wagon platform and the floaty under damped ride which was all addressed in the 2015’s.

I have had a bad tire go out of round and had to stay on the backend given it shook the front end too much. Had a similar issue with our VW.

Yep, we're actually down to the wear strips on ours so that'll be next on the list in the next week, and shocks after the end of the month.

I agree poly and solid mounts will make ride quality worse, NVH wise, hence why I said poly insert in OEM or just OEM since I can get away with a poly insert adding a slight bit of NVH with a much stiffer ride but any more than that and my wife will notice (and complain). As for not lasting as long as factory stuff, it depends on the application and the quality, but as long as you grease it regularly they'll last a good long time (that's where quality comes in). I don't care so much about vibration personally, it puts the babies to sleep and I'm used to much more severe on my harley which is my normal nonwinter nonkid DD than my poly'd out Volvo.

All axles are original factory new from when the car was bought new in 2012.

 

[avenger09123]

I am only interested in the void, if that is the same. Since the insert fills the void.

As far as other parts, I suppose I can develop anything. In the case of the CVT trans mount insert. It will require purchasing a new mount. Using it as a mold, and casting the void into a master cast of the insert. The master cast then gets encased in mold material (2 step process in itself) Then master mold can used to reproduce the the inserts.

As you see the $ in original part, master materials and prototype effort is considerable for something that can old be sold for $30.

However, The 4/5EAT trans insert and the 2000-2009 rear sway bar reinforcement brackets were developed by my for my cars out of my own needs. Over the past several years, I have been asked to consider making bushings. Here's the deal tho. I don't have any interest in making (or competing) with the big boys who make bushings. I can't. Mine is a craft/hand operation. Not mass produced.

Currently there are very limited aftermarket performance parts for the newer Gens. I will fill holes where I think my products can be a benefit. But I won't double up on something else a huge manufacturer makes.

Ok, I'll hop under there this evening and get some dimensions when my wife gets home so you can compare them to the stock auto guys (top length, bottom length, width between top to bottom and front to back width) and post up a drawing of the dimensions. If they're close to your units I'll just buy one outright and then let you know if I need to trim anything off when I install them. They're in my ebay cart pending your confirmation of similarity of dimensions at your earliest convenience. Subaru of America's website has the same part number for the Gen 4 auto's and CVT's so they should be the same part, but I'm not sure if they cross to other gen boundaries or not or if there's been a revision to combine them since 2008.

I get what you're saying business wise, no sense in competing with the big boys, unless you can do it for significantly cheaper and there's nowhere else out there on the market. My wife is anti-chemical otherwise I'd be doing my own CF work out of the garage similar to how you do urethane stuff. I always take the view that time spent on nearly anything isn't going to be worth much unless you're going to value the outcome and anyone else sharing that value is just extra. Because of that philosophy I spend a lot of time making sure whatever projects I do are done right the first (or second) time, and expect not many to value them as much as I do.

 

[traildogck]

Subaru of America's website has the same part number for the Gen 4 auto's and CVT's so they should be the same part, but I'm not sure if they cross to other gen boundaries or not or if there's been a revision to combine them since 2008.

Whow! Hold up partner.

Let me do this. My local dealer has s mount. I called, they are cool with me testing. I will go verify what it looks like. Take an insert, see if it fits. The inserts are a direct cast of the void. Sure, with a detail belt sander, trim to fit would be doabale. But If it's significantly different than the 4/5EAT I would want to cast something from the actual OEM mount.

I will post results by Noon (MT)

 

[avenger09123]

Whow! Hold up partner.

Let me do this. My local dealer has s mount. I called, they are cool with me testing. I will go verify what it looks like. Take an insert, see if it fits. The inserts are a direct cast of the void. Sure, with a detail belt sander, trim to fit would be doabale. But If it's significantly different than the 4/5EAT I would want to cast something from the actual OEM mount.

I will post results by Noon (MT)

Ok. Cool. Only reason I said what I said is because I don't expect people to do work for me that I can do myself with some effort, but if you're ok with getting a whole new mount, I'm ok with that too, and I'll even pay you for the mount+insert if you're ok with that and want to get rid of it. Otherwise I'll nab just the insert from you when all is said and done.

I hopped under there just now after I finished my cramming school work (whole weeks worth of homework + midterm for two classes in under 5 hours yay). It appears that the mount is quite compressed though I assume that is standard for the weight and pressure (top metal bracket is touching the bottom inside rubber arms that stick up, and outside arms are still attached top to bottom). There is no cracking or separation, and has only 3 bolts running through it.

However, I grabbed a bracket on the motor in the middle of it beneath the throttle body and with just a thumb and two fingers I was able to visibly compress and stretch the motor on the side mounts. Is this one of subaru's NVH soft mounts or is this actually a bad mount and two fingers and a thumb shouldn't be able to move them at all?

 

[traildogck]

However, I grabbed a bracket on the motor in the middle of it beneath the throttle body and with just a thumb and two fingers I was able to visibly compress and stretch the motor on the side mounts. Is this one of subaru's NVH soft mounts or is this actually a bad mount and two fingers and a thumb shouldn't be able to move them at all?

Are you talking about the picth stop? The dogbone (almost) back to the firewall? Yes they are flimsy for compliance. They used to be solid steel with rubber bushings. Now they are some composite thing.

Here is what I found out about the trans mount insert. The CVT mount voids are bigger.

Hold up tho ... The 4EAT is slightly different than the 5EAT. I cast mine from a 5EAT. The 4EAT is slightly wider, about a 1/8" per side. However, it is also slightly smaller in height (about 1/8") So the same insert works and fits tight in both after being inserted.

Now the CVT mount I looked at was for a 2013 5EAT/CVT mount, they are both the same. I have installed one of mine on a 2013 5EAT and it fit tight. However, this new mount, looks to be 1/4" wider on each side. I have no doubt the current inserts will fit. I am NOT 100% sure they will stay in during all conditions. I have some in customers cars who "rock crawl" them. (2) 4EAT Foresters and so far they have not spit them out under high flex situations.

I think you are safe to pick one up if you want to an then let me know after it is in, what the fir is like. I would prefer NOT to invest the $100 to buy and copy the mount for the CVT if there is little or no demand. Don't get me wrong, I think I have sold maybe 1/2 a dozen of the current inserts. (worldwide - lol) But in the beginning, I could give or trade them away.

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/65-parts-accessories-performance/313969-tdck-days-xmas.html

It seems from this initial discovery, there may be a need. Keep in mind a replacement oem mount for a 2015 on up is only $26.00. Where for my car a new mount is more like $60.

 

[avenger09123]

Ok. So I checked out what you mentioned and here's what I found according to SoA:

2010-2012 Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT/Auto Mount: 41022AJ07A $38
2013-2014 Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT/Auto Mount: 41022FJ000 $64

The differences you specified would be relevant to the different part numbers found from Subaru's part's directory.

I am willing to purchase a new CVT mount for my 2012 and drop it off up there with you if the insert is not a fit to your satisfaction for you to work on at your leisure. However, I went through the aftermarket parts available back to 2009, and all the Auto/CVT mounts have the same part number for purchase. However, 2013+ the same part number is not available anymore from the same company. That being said, I have to take a trip up to MicroCenter anyways, do you want to meet up and test fit it into a new 2012 mount I'll bring with me? If it goes in similar to the 5EAT (which it should if the 5EAT was an option in 2009-2012 OB's), then I'll pay you cash then and there for it and you know it'll work for us CVT's up to 2012.

Your thoughts?

 

[traildogck]

You are in the front range area then?

 

[avenger09123]

You are in the front range area then?

Yeah I live in Monument.