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06 OBXT Limited
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Discussion Starter #1
Looks like my EJ25D bit the dust (PO didn't replace the timing belt idlers...):28: so it's time for a new engine. I realize the easiest thing would be to find another 25D, but I'm not sure I'll be able to find one locally. What all is involved with swapping in an EJ251 or a pre-VVT 253? (I'd love to swap in an EJ255 with turbo, but I expect that's a bit out of my price range, aside from the complexity...:D) I've seen a couple references to difficulties due to Phase 1 vs. Phase 2, but I don't know what those terms mean. Is it something where I could swap ECUs along with the engines, assuming the donor was also a manual?

(Because someone will suggest it, no, I am in no way willing to install an EJ22. I'd sooner have to sell the car than lose power.)
 

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I simply cannot abide useless people.
2006 2.5i and 2002 3.0 wagons.
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Since you don't want the easiest option of an EJ22, and the EJ25D DOHC engine is a real junker, I'd suggest selling the car.

Swapping in a Phase II SOHC will involve a LOT of work, especially wiring.
 

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2002 Pair: 3.0 VDC Wag & 2.5 Limited Sedan
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ej25D power. :23:


the ej22 was not really that much slower behind the wheel. (as others have said).

I guess one could get a JDM Ej25D, have a machine shop drill out the EGR hole, and do turbo MLS head gaskets, timing belt kit, and a main bearing on it. before dropping it in.

or sell it,...and move on to something better,...like something with a Ej251 in it.
(2000-2004 legacy/ legacy outback ride a whole lot better with the multilink rear end).
 

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06 OBXT Limited
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Discussion Starter #5
the ej22 was not really that much slower behind the wheel. (as others have said).
Interesting. This is actually the first reference I have seen contrasting power. The threads I read people just said it worked, but didn't accelerate very well. And since I plan to use it to tow a light trailer on occasion... Also one of the things I really liked about the car was that it had enough power to be fun to drive.

(2000-2004 legacy/ legacy outback ride a whole lot better with the multilink rear end).
Good to know. The one 2nd gen I drove had multiple issues the used dept of my local Subaru dealership wouldn't admit to. Including, apparently, shocks/struts.

I already have a timing belt kit, bought that on the advice of a friend who thought there was a good chance the existing engine was usable. But it's returnable for another couple weeks if I don't get another EJ25D..
 

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Interesting. This is actually the first reference I have seen contrasting power. The threads I read people just said it worked, but didn't accelerate very well. And since I plan to use it to tow a light trailer on occasion... Also one of the things I really liked about the car was that it had enough power to be fun to drive.


Good to know. The one 2nd gen I drove had multiple issues the used dept of my local Subaru dealership wouldn't admit to. Including, apparently, shocks/struts.
Ej25D to drive seems pretty slow. a EJ22 is pokier. not sure I would want to tow a light trailer or haul around 4 adults and luggage with any of them.

the fix was the Ej251 SOHC,...and the way the 4EAT works with it..... way more tolerable between 0-80mph then the earlier things.
and if a EJ251 is sold as needing head gaskets, and is just leaking oil externally, it is a easy job. that shops that like subarus have done many times.


____

if looking for used EJ251 and the car rides bad. figure into the cost a set of KYB struts. (what subaru buys and relabels),
...and maybe a set of OEM springs if they got 180,000 miles or lots of rust on the springs that are on there.

______

want even more: a Ez30D powered subaru 212hp/ 210 torque., if that is listed as needing head gaskets and the new owner confirms that is the case a JDM drop in is a whole lot easier, and maybe cheaper then doing head gaskets on a EJ251.
 

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I simply cannot abide useless people.
2006 2.5i and 2002 3.0 wagons.
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If you lunched a timing belt, expect busted valves.
 

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06 OBXT Limited
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Discussion Starter #8
Ej25D to drive seems pretty slow. a EJ22 is pokier. not sure I would want to tow a light trailer or haul around 4 adults and luggage with any of them.

the fix was the Ej251 SOHC,...and the way the 4EAT works with it..... way more tolerable between 0-80mph then the earlier things.
I'm running a manual, I've heard any 1st gen with the auto was on the pokey side. Ideally any replacement would also be a manual, although the stock clutch feels so heavy and uninspiring I'm not adamant as long as the car performs decently.
 

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I'm running a manual, I've heard any 1st gen with the auto was on the pokey side. Ideally any replacement would also be a manual, although the stock clutch feels so heavy and uninspiring I'm not adamant as long as the car performs decently.

I can see how people love clutches and I use to, but then it stopped being interesting and fun to me as a daily driver.

personally I never liked the way most hydraulic clutches work with a lack of feel,

if I were to be stuck with a 1996-99 I would swap it to the earlier 1995 type cable system (which others have done).
 

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This is accurate (to the best of my knowledge) but may not be complete.

Phase 1 vs. Phase 2 EJ-series 4-cylinder engines
Phase 1 and Phase 2 refer to the Engines, Transmissions and Electronics used in Subarus. It does NOT refer to body styles or Generations of each model.

See Wikipedia for more EJ-series info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine

Note: This pertains to USA models. Japan (JDM) and other overseas markets had more engine choices, but generally the Phase 2 started the same time.

Phase 1: All Subaru 1.8, 2.2 (incl.'91-'94 turbo version), and 2.5 engines from 1989-1998, including the '99 Legacy Outback, SUS and GT*.
Note: The EG33 in the SVX is considered a Phase 1, I'd think.

Phase 2: All Subaru 2.0, 2.2 and 2.5 engines (incl. turbo versions) from 1999-2010 (depends on model when the FB-series engine was 1st used).

*The 1999 Legacy OB, SUS and GT’s EJ25D used a Phase 2 shortblock BUT with the Phase 1 ’96-’98 2.5 pistons, DOHC heads, Intake Manifold and engine harness. It also had the Phase 2 4EAT Transmission.

More info:
o The Phase 1 EJ22E had at least 3 variations from ’89-’98.
o The ’89-’95 were DUAL-port exhaust vs. SINGLE-port on the ’96-’98.
o In ’97-’98 they changed to different piston for higher Comp. Ratio and SLA on the valve lifters.
o 1995>1996 was the OBD1 to OBD2 transition year. The '95 Impreza 1.8 5-speed was still OBD1; '95 Impreza EJ22 + 4EAT was OBD2. The '95 Legacy was all OBD2 - I think, but its ECU tuning/wiring was bit different than the '96-'98 Subarus.

Notes about swaps:
- The Intake Manifolds (IM) PHASE 1 on 2.2 and 2.5 do NOT interchange/swap with each other or Phase 2.
- The IM on the PHASE 2 SOHC and DOHC ‘might’ interchange w/some slight modifcation – I’ve read conflicting reports on this. The ’99-’01 2.2 SOHC and ‘99+ 2.5 SOHC will interchange.

- The sensors, IAC, Throttle body, injectors, ECUs, wiring harness plugs, etc are different between Phases, which prevents the easy swaps. The shortblocks (no cylinder heads or IM) can be used across phases in 'most' cases, up to the 2005 EJ253 engine.

- There are differences within Phases, too. Cam and crankshaft sprockets need to match the ECU for the early and later '99+ 2.5.

Info on EJ22E used from ’89-98: General Hybrid Info on EJ25D - EJ22E/T [Archive] - Subaru Legacy International

From Wikipedia:
Changes in the 2.2-litre Phase 2 engines are as follows (most if not all of these updates were applied to the 2.5 engines as well):
• The engine and transmission are fastened with six bolts and two studs.
• The thrust bearing has been moved to the number 5 position.
• The oil groove in the number 1 and 3 have been changed to supply additional lubrication to the crank journal.
• Many changes to the cylinder head and camshafts (specifics on Wikipedia)
• Different pistons with a Compression Ratio of 10:1
• Different Camshaft gears / sprockets
- Additional Phase 2 info:
• Transmissions acquired an external spin-on filter. Designed to last the life of the transmission.
• Different internal electronics
• 2-4 brake band from Phase 1 was replaced with a 2-4 clutch pack
• The valve body went from using five solenoids to seven solenoids
• From here: The many changes to the Subaru 4EAT | Search Autoparts
• Note that starting about 2004 in the Forester XT, the 4EAT Phase 2, Version 2 came out.
 

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06 OBXT Limited
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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks, that's a lot of great information!

I'm guessing the 2.2 turbo isn't practical to swap, since it's probably OBD-I... Oh well. I think I have a well-maintained 25D lined up out of a friend's wrecked 98, otherwise I'll look for something with less problems...
 

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Timing belt broke - they bend valves, not a big deal.

Resurface and install a set of used heads with new MLS headgaskets.

The more you know about the history of that engine in regards to blown headgaskets, oil changes, and overheating events the more I'd be inclined to keep it.

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market
 
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