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White-van-man Pro
Outback 2,0D 2009
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335 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
On http://swesubaru.forum24.se comes this shocking news

erito said:
:x

jahapp då fick man hämta farsan som blev stående med sin nya Outback diesel. Inte ens första servicen gjord och kopplingen rasat helt.

fler som råkat ut för det? Jag tycker det verkar som om dieseln är för stark för kopplingen och lådan är för högt växlad... inte nöjd med kombinationen. En automatlåda, gärna CVT måste in i dieselbilarna...
Google Translates into:

"jwell well well, when you had to get Dad who was standing with his new Outback diesel. Not even the first service done and the clutch collapsed completely.

more victims of it? It seems as if the diesel is too strong for the clutch and the gearbox is too highly geared ... Not satisfied with the combination. An automatic transmission,( CVT) must get into diesel cars ..."
 

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2005 OBW 2.5L, 1989 Subaru Justy, RIP Blu
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7,355 Posts
One can burn out a clutch fairly easily and quickly, so i will withold judgement untill more details are known.



nipper
 

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White-van-man Pro
Outback 2,0D 2009
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335 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I agree with you and its not "by accident" most warranty and insurances has the line " not including worn clutch-material and consequential damages there from"

My money is put on Subaru taking the job on warranty but the client will have to pay for the clutch itself...
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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556 Posts
I´ve read similar stories on Finnish Subaru and other car enthusiast forums. One Diesel Outback - damaged clutch at 15000km, two Foresters 28000km and 45000km. All happened in the same way - towing a heavy load. They let clutch slip too much and it was totally ruined in seconds.

There´s been quite a lot complaints about the clutch and I´ve had some symptoms myself. Throwout bearing noise sometimes, bad smell during reversing uphill when some slippage is needed. Other than that so far so good - 26000km and counting...

--> Beefier clutch and shorter first gear, low-ratio gear like on petrol Subaru´s or last but not least Good Automatic Transmission with torque converter!!!
There´s again some rumours of AT transmission and I suspect they are from the dealer event in Sweden two weeks ago. Just rumours nothing more...
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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556 Posts
A new example from Finnish forum - clutch totalled at 41000km. No towing or anything special according owner. Clutch plate worn so badly that some of the rivets are visible. Flywheel has to be replaced too.

Subaru gives 20000km warranty for clutch (the whole assembly) and this is not said on owner´s manual. But according service nearly all such cases have been replaced under warranty (warrantied by the dealer).

Similar stories here and there (and everywhere..?) Clutch totalled at relatively short mileage.

:confused:
 

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White-van-man Pro
Outback 2,0D 2009
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335 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
erito said:
Subaru bytte på garanti, de påpekade också att egentligen så skall inte koppling gå på garanti. MEN den var helt utsliten och de undrade hur man lyckas med det på 1000mil. Det undrar vi också. Jag tror fortfarande den är j.kligt felkonstruerad för hur du än kör så skall den hålla längre än så.

Nylagad nu och luktar ändå brända lameller så fort man kört den en stund, jag tippar på **** på lameller inom 1000mil igen....
In short:

Suabru did change the clutch within the waarnty BUT pointed out that a clutch was NOT included but they took it as Goodwill for this time, completely worn out in 10000 kms....
OP claims its a bad design and not faulty operation ( its his dads Diesel)
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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556 Posts
Every case what I´ve heard are the same. Totally worn out clutch at very low kilometers. All the drivers have been driven other cars for years without clutch problems, so there must be something wrong with the clutch of diesel subaru.

Service has asked the owners if they´ve been towing something. Why? Aren´t these cars ment for towing anyway? Why do they even sell the hook if youy should not use it. Towing always needs some cluch slippage to get the diesel OB going otherwise it´ll stall. Especially when reversing.
 

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2.0D OB MY09 NS
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2 Posts
Hey to everyone. Sorry for my English- I fight to make it better.

Here, in Subaru community from Romania , we have same problems with clutch for OBD. About five of us was forced to change clutch kit under 25000 Km. Mine was at 13000 Km.
Here Subaru is represented by a freaky and cheating Greek subsidiary and everything is not under warranty but in our pocket :( .
I had some correspondence with Sachs engineers (the manufacturer of the clutch kit) and they claimed a contract with Subaru that do no permit to discuss directly technical aspect with clients.
From here we start to search an aftermarket replacement for OEM kit with no success. A single solution that can be tried in this moment is to replace only the friction material with another improved one (we found, one local company with a patented material more resistant than usual and one german provider that was indicated by Sachs Performance Dept. engineers).
As the official diagnostic was "normal worn" , that we consider impossible in 15ooo Km, we start a third party diagnostic and have three responses : 1. it is possible that clutch kit to be insufficient powerful to resist at such torque ( a design problem); 2. first clutch kit could be deliberately a weak one , but was not enough calculated to resist till a decent number of km; 3. some problems in assembling problems ( like grease or not very good parameters in pressure that is put on clutch during normal operation).
Having now the information that your service ask something about towing or heavy loading , I think that the clutch kit is calculated somehow at the limit of the torques and material resistances and anything that put a little load in normal exploitation can bring this problem up.
My opinion is that we have to chase Subaru for an official response about this matter , as is something very nasty for a car recognized for durability .

K/r
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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556 Posts
Hi JohnSA!

Thank you for your input. To me it´s now very clear that there is a clutch problem with Subaru diesel. I´ve read about this on several forums and there´s quite a few people who are familiar with diesel engine w/ manual transmission and now they are facing problems with clutch. Total clutch failure at as low as 13000km is not what I call a "normal wear", no way. We should really complain about this and let our dealer know what we think about it. Outback especially has a good reputation as a towing car. Now dealer/service are asking if we´ve been towing something, just like it should not be done at all. I really hope Subaru will find a solution for this.

I´ll have my 30000km service quite soon and I´m going to discuss about the clutch problems we´ve had almost since the day we bought the car. Hesitation/shaking on a cold morning, hard to get going becuase clutch is more like "ON-OFF" switch!

:13:
 

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2005 OBW 2.5L, 1989 Subaru Justy, RIP Blu
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7,355 Posts
I would rule out #3 as there are too many cars with issues for it to be one assembler with greasy hands.

What i suspect is that the materials are not up to the torque load. This is subarus first diesel and most likely this is growing pain (and subaru is not ready to own up to the problem yet). I do not know how subaru distrihutes thier cars in europe, so I can not defend them nor assail them. Also the car I suspect may still be low volume and too new for the aftermarket to catch up to it yet.

Keep the reciepts.

I also dont know who you would complain too, as Europe is at best odd and at worst very complicated.


nipper
 

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Legacy Boxer Diesel 2008
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10 Posts
I also had a problem with the clutch on my Legacy at +/- 45000 kms.
Flyweel and clutch systeme have been replaced.
Although my legacy has been remapped at +/-40000kms(180ps/414nm) there is no linkage betwenn that operation and the disease. I've exposed that situation to subaru belgium and they agreed to cover half of the expense.
I've given some information about rmapping a few moonths ago but the topic I created here has been suppressed whithout explanation.
Anyway the car with its new clutch is some more responsive than earlier and I'm almost convinced that the clutch was already failed when I bought the car (at 17000kms); my legacy was a test car before I owned it.
On the other hand we must keep in mind that clutches are made in Germany by Sachs, which an absolute reference in this segment !
If we consider pfailures met here and there (3 in Sweden, 3 in Romania,...), there is no significant rule to say clutches show problems in general.
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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556 Posts
Many Subaru diesel owners have reported problems with their clutch even though there´s no failure (..yet). And the one I know in Finland where both clutchplate and flywheel had to be replaced was a demo car too.

Problem may also be the engine itself. It´s prone to stall and clutch needs to be slipped a bit to get going. More than any other typical european diesel engine. First diesel Legacy´s were even worse and Subaru did something to make it better, but it still isn´t as good as it should.

One local mechanic told me that the shaking clutch that I´ve experienced is caused by clutchplate wear and some bits are left on the surface (also on a flywheel) to cause "shaking" or sticking. I complained about the clutch at first service (15000km) and they told me they´ve heard similar comments from other users.

Unfortunately in the worst case there´s not much we can do to make it better, except to be carefull using the clutch.

SUBARU GIVE US DIESEL WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION; PLEASE!!
 

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2.0D OB MY09 NS
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2 Posts
Well ,to be more specific, second clutch is more responsive in my case, too.
Actually , till now I didn't fell not once the dual mass flywheel springs (short "jumps" in second gear if you try to force the breaking of the adherence ). And it doesn't smell , but this could by my instinctive care for the moment.
With first clutch, the slipping did occur at about 6000 Km for first time, when I downgraded the gear from 4th to 3th and tried to accelerate in a more sporty fashion . At those moment I thought that some very intelligent protective system is implemented to deny forcing the transmission ( stupid , but I never met such phenomenon in my entire experience). After this, no sign but slow-in-time losing of the dynamic of the acceleration.
Anyway, I red that Subaru Europe was born through Subaru Belgium.
Maybe could someone obtain from them the correspondence coordinates for Subaru Customer Center , part of Subaru Academy ? I know that exist a Customer Satisfaction Dept and a Customer Relation Dept that should be involved in such problems, but I didn't find the proper way to start the discussions.

Kr
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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Here´s a quote of what I wrote 12 monts ago:

I´ll have my 30000km service quite soon and I´m going to discuss about the clutch problems we´ve had almost since the day we bought the car. Hesitation/shaking on a cold morning, hard to get going becuase clutch is more like "ON-OFF" switch!
Next service, at 45000km I complained again about those clutch related problems: shaking on cold morning, throwout bearing noise now and then, burning smell when reversing uphill.

Dealer said they cannot duplicate the problem on test drive. Of course they cannot since it only happens on certain conditions.

Now at 50000km my wife had enough. One morning she called me from work and said she is not going to drive the car anymore with that clutch. It had been nearly impossible to get moving that morning and she almost got hit by a truck cause she stalled the car.

I called dealer and told them I´ll bring car in and they have to investigate the problem. Again they were not able to duplicate the problem. They started blaming us that we do not know how to drive a manual car (we´ve driven total of 350000+ km on manual cars...). After a loud discussion they agreed to replace the clutch and Subaru Finland covers it by warranty.

Now the clutch is replaced and it works perfectly. It feels a bit different to the original. Only time will tell if the shake will come again with mileage??

But what about the original cluthc.. Well, there was no signs of wear or any other visible problems. Both clutch and flywheel was replaced.

I´ve heard similar shake problems with other makes as well. Those symptoms occur only on a cold, wet morning at first few take offs. Any ideas what could be causing this? Clutch disc & flywheel materials???

Intertesting and annoying. And a tip for those who are experiencing this. You can get rid of it for a while if you slip the clutch for a good amount. Like taking off on 2nd gear and rev a bit higher than normal, then release clutch slowly. Something happens on the surface (disc, flywheel? ) and shkaing goes away. But it surely comes back one day...
 

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2005 OBW 2.5L, 1989 Subaru Justy, RIP Blu
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There are quite a few people in the UK with this issue. Everyone say it's a really great car but....

There is a lot of chatter about it, some saying cracked pressure plates.

I know part of the problem is that there is too much torque for the clutch as designed. One of the delaying issues with the TD when it first came up was to have a small enough clutch that could handle the torque.

I have heard (had to hear from over the pond have to really cup your hand to your ear) that it was both a clutch issue and a fuel map issue. I don't know what part of the clutch but my guess would be the pressure plate. It sounds like a combo of the oddness of the deisel and a grapping/juddering pressure plate. The plate is probably getting overworked. Remeber it is very hard to do real world driving in a lab, and due to time constraints etc most testing by all mfg's are done on puters now.

Subaru paid for the repair while the shop was balking tells me that subaru knew about, it has a fix, but the dealer did not want to do it as it would take more time then subaru would reimburse them for (due to not hainvg done many if any clutches on these cars yet).

I have only heard about people going through one clutch, so subaru must have a working fix for it. I will keep tyring to hunt it down, but thats my professional and gut opinion.
 

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2010 Outback 2.0D, Premium SATNAV
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Had what appeared to be a clutch trying to slip (judder) in 6th gear going up an incline. 2.0D seemed to have lots of torque to give, but clutch started to complain. Anyone else seen this? Only 3000km on this clutch (had car for one month). Going to service after xmas break to investigate.
 

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Outback 2.0D 2010 6MT
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Clutch on 2.0D Outback gone after 1000 km

I have 2010 November 30(!) 2.0D 6MT Outback. After some driving in the snow, and smelling clutch for a few times almost every day whenever car got a bit stuck ( I had to slip the clutch a bit otherwise it would stall or hit the car next to me), my clutch was completely gone with 1000 km on counter. Just sat in the car in the middle of the road , with engine working, putting shift in various gears, no movement. Before that, the clutch pedal kind of refused to come back swiftly enough after being pressed.

I had owned 3 Automatic Subaru Outback's 2,5 liter 2001, 2004, 2007 models and they were driven hard in similar conditions but they were all perfect with 100 000 km on the counter.

What is wrong with this 2.0D clutch? Have I chosen a totally worthless car? We have snow in Latvia from November till April, and I have a country house where roads are snowy. I actually hoped manual gearbox will give more traction and control than automatic in snow situations. Seems I am totally wrong.

I have driven manual cars as well, diesels as well, have NEVER noticed anything like this nor experienced clutch problems even on my 300 000 km Peugeot 505.

What's wrong with this 2.0D clutch?
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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What's wrong with this 2.0D clutch?
I think the answer to your question is already written here. The engine has stalling problem on really low rpms. Due the small size of clutch plate it is prone to burn.

There is no help, unfortunately. Get a new clutch and it´ll be exactly similar to the one you just toasted. Options are: do not get stuck or..umm..??

That was the main reason why I chose to get rid of my OB diesel. For the most it works just fine. But if you really need to be able to go on difficult conditions or you´ll need to tow a heavy load (a boat up a ramp etc) Subaru diesel is not ready for it.

Solution would be a good automatic transmission. Rumours say CVT will come the next year.

I´m really sorry to hear about your problems and I think I know how you feel.
 

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Outback 2.0D 2010 6MT
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Thank you for swift answer. Sounds not very hopeful. Its a company car, I kind of have to have it for 4 years.... I am not sure what options I have to trade it back for 2.5 liter petrol CVT Outback...Its leased.

Anyway, good too know that one has to be extra careful with that clutch and stalling. I was wondering why I stall so often when starting or switching into a second gear after a turn in neutral, like a total beginner. And forget about low speed driving in difficult conditions.


As to country house roads, one probably has to attack the road at max speed in lowest gear and see if its goes through. No clutch usage to increase revs.
But then thats risky for control. And how to navigate in narrow places where You can not speed.

Just letting some of misery out..I was ecstatic at first, felt like a truly wonderful car.

Once they replace it....
 

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Subaru Outback 2.5i CVT 2015
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You probably know this already, but when you get stuck you´ll need to switch traction control off to get moving. This helps a bit. You´ll get used to clutch feel and after few more weeks of driving you´ll never stall it on a road (like you just described).
Just try to focus on good details on you OB. It´s very, very good car after all.
 
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