[ModernEthos]

Looking for advice. Im in the middle of trying to get the heads off of a DOHC 2.5l

I am trying to get the crank bolts loose and I guess whoever at subaru who did the timing belt just cranked those on.

I cant for the life of me get them loose even with a breaker bar with a cheater bar.

The bottom crank on the right side, when I went to loosen it... The crank alone shifted while the belt stayed idle, jumping a few teeth on the belt. I seriously hope I didnt damage anything.

Any ideas on how to get these off???

Thanks in advance.

 

[johnre]

What year and engine are we talking about here?

I assume it's an interference engine design, they've all been that way for quite a while. If you are rotating the crankshaft and the cam sprockets and timing belt are stuck in place, and you already know you've jumped a few teeth on the timing belt, then it's time to slow down and not do any more damage to anything.

If you can get the pistons all about halfway up, then that's a safe position to move the camshafts and not do any damage - nothing can touch down then.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

oh CAM sprocket bolts

on some engines, pretty sure there are some flat on the camshaft you can put a wrench on - of course, you have to take the valve cover off.

but, those are notorious difficult - there's a special tool too I think.

 

[ModernEthos]

Sorry yes.. The cam. It's a 05 2.5l xt dohc engine. EJ255

The engine wouldnt turn by hand when I pulled it but turned fine before it was pulled.

Subaru did the timing belt at 100k and its now a lil over 150k.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

try to put the crank at belt install position, dashed line/groove on tab at back of crank sprocket at 12 o'clock - lined-up with the mark on the sensor boss.

that puts the pistons at mid travel - away from the valves.

at this point, you may need to do that by turning the crank backwards....but try clockwise first if you don't encounter resistance.

 

[ModernEthos]

try to put the crank at belt install position, dashed line/groove on tab at back of crank sprocket at 12 o'clock - lined-up with the mark on the sensor boss.

that puts the pistons at mid travel - away from the valves.

at this point, you may need to do that by turning the crank backwards....but try clockwise first if you don't encounter resistance.

I wasnt at TDC when I went to loosen the bolts. Because it wouldnt rotate clockwise, I decided to take pics and do a mark n match.

Would turning the crank be wise now that the one of the two overhead cams shifted?

It was the lower cam on the 2/4 cylinder side.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I may not be following, or I haven't been clear.

You do not want the crank at TDC, you want it 90* from TDC. Unless a valve has dropped in or broken in some way, or a rod cap has dropped off, positioning the crank at the belt install position should then allow for any manipulation of camshafts you need to do.

in this pic, the triangle/arrow at about the 3 o'clock position is TDC for piston 1 if it's UP. The position shown is the belt install position so, pistons are all at mid point.

there's some decent pics here too - some differences but, you'll get the idea; https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1794043

 

[cardoc]

I think this would be better if it was part of the original thread started about the issue with the engine. Merge with https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/494565-misfire-1-then-4-a.html ???

What I don't get is you stated the engine would not turn by hand after you got it out?

You're doing head work anyway, so the timing marks don't matter at this point. It will matter that #1 is TDC and the crank lined up with the timing mark when you go back together with the timing belt.

A few things you may want to get before you go much further: Company23
STD Int/Exh Cam Sprocket Tool
Camlock Tool 1
Crank Pulley Tool 1 v2

A local tool/parts store may have similar. I assumed you read up on the job and had the necessary tools, https://www.subaruoutback.org/forum.../494565-misfire-1-then-4-a-2.html#post5649601 My bad.

 

[ModernEthos]

I may not be following, or I haven't been clear.

You do not want the crank at TDC, you want it 90* from TDC. Unless a valve has dropped in or broken in some way, or a rod cap has dropped off, positioning the crank at the belt install position should then allow for any manipulation of camshafts you need to do.

in this pic, the triangle/arrow at about the 3 o'clock position is TDC for piston 1 if it's UP. The position shown is the belt install position so, pistons are all at mid point.

there's some decent pics here too - some differences but, you'll get the idea; https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1794043

No you were good. I was just so tired, what you said wasn't registering. My apologies.

Did you add a pic to that last comment? Because I didnt see one, just the link.

I didnt realize that there is a belt install positiin on these. My vw I just always put it at tdc and installed a new belt.

 

[ModernEthos]

I think this would be better if it was part of the original thread started about the issue with the engine. Merge with https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/494565-misfire-1-then-4-a.html ???

What I don't get is you stated the engine would not turn by hand after you got it out?

You're doing head work anyway, so the timing marks don't matter at this point. It will matter that #1 is TDC and the crank lined up with the timing mark when you go back together with the timing belt.

A few things you may want to get before you go much further: Company23
STD Int/Exh Cam Sprocket Tool
Camlock Tool 1
Crank Pulley Tool 1 v2

A local tool/parts store may have similar. I assumed you read up on the job and had the necessary tools, https://www.subaruoutback.org/forum.../494565-misfire-1-then-4-a-2.html#post5649601 My bad.

My mistake. I figured a new thread was in order so people didnt look at the title and then get all this other unrelated info.

Yeah.. I have no clue why but with the engine out I couldn't hand crank it without serious resistance.

I was trying to find a cam wrench but couldn't find one! Even the one posted won't work on this engine since mine aren't a traditional sproket. (See pic).

I removed the valve cover but there is really nowhere for me to grab to give leverage without damaging the cam spindles and I need these off because the middle and front head bolts are behind the cam spindles.

 

[ModernEthos]

Meant to add that company 23 DOES carry that cam wrench I need but its not in stock. Argh

 

[Berge56]

Heres a cheaper option that I use:

I bought a 10mm impact allen socket from Amazon and used my impact gun. I held the cam gears with my hand while impacting them off and it took the bolts off my cam gears easy peasy.

If you don't have an impact gun, you can always use a breaker bar, but to hold the cam gear in place you can use the old belt with vise grips and route the belt around the old idler pulleys and the crank gear to jam the cam gear in place. This will ruin the old belt, but will not cause any harm to the gears if done properly.

I can't emphasize enough how much that 10mm impact socket is needed. If you use regular allen tools you will strip the bolts and then you are left welding a socket on the bolt or drilling them out.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Did you add a pic to that last comment? Because I didnt see one, just the link.

I didnt realize that there is a belt install positiin on these. My vw I just always put it at tdc and installed a new belt.

my bad, forgot an image, found another decent one - your sprocket may look a little different;

ugh, images not displaying

try putting this in a new browser tab.window; http://www.jay-d.com/marv/timingbelt/timingbelt09.jpg

maybe this?;

 

[ModernEthos]

Heres a cheaper option that I use:

I bought a 10mm impact allen socket from Amazon and used my impact gun. I held the cam gears with my hand while impacting them off and it took the bolts off my cam gears easy peasy.

If you don't have an impact gun, you can always use a breaker bar, but to hold the cam gear in place you can use the old belt with vise grips and route the belt around the old idler pulleys and the crank gear to jam the cam gear in place. This will ruin the old belt, but will not cause any harm to the gears if done properly.

I can't emphasize enough how much that 10mm impact socket is needed. If you use regular allen tools you will strip the bolts and then you are left welding a socket on the bolt or drilling them out.

Thanks though I already tried that. Both my impact and air tools didnt do a **** thing. ?

Tried breaker with a cheater as well.

With the double cam the lower cam (intake or exhaust??) Slips teeth and I can't get the belt between them to get more tension on each individual sprocket.

 

[Berge56]

Thanks though I already tried that. Both my impact and air tools didnt do a **** thing. ?

Tried breaker with a cheater as well.

With the double cam the lower cam (intake or exhaust??) Slips teeth and I can't get the belt between them to get more tension on each individual sprocket.

HA, you need a better impact! Have you tried wrapping the belt around a single cam gear, apply vise grips to the belt so that it holds the belt tightly on the gear. then rout the belt around various gears and pulleys and use another pair of vise grips to hold the belt kinda like this?

 

[ModernEthos]

Thanks though I already tried that. Both my impact and air tools didnt do a **** thing. ?

Tried breaker with a cheater as well.

With the double cam the lower cam (intake or exhaust??) Slips teeth and I can't get the belt between them to get more tension on each individual sprocket.

HA, you need a better impact! Have you tried wrapping the belt around a single cam gear, apply vise grips to the belt so that it holds the belt tightly on the gear. then rout the belt around various gears and pulleys and use another pair of vise grips to hold the belt kinda like this?

Yep! I was actually in the middle of doing that... Got the two on the 2/4 side off... Bottom 1/3 side one I was trying the breaker w/ cheater and it snapped the 10 hex. I heard the *crack* and when I went to out more pressure on it: *snap*

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

um - with the belt off, the crank at timing belt install position, and the cams all 'relaxed'

can you turn the crank easily in both directions?

if it's blocked one way, but turns the other - possibly with a clunking noise - you can stop working on it right now, it likely has a bad rod big-end.

 

[RoughDiamond]

Your best bet is to put the belt completely back on, LIGHTLY vise-grip the belt to the cam sprocket, and heave-ho. Leaving the belt wrapped around ALL the pulleys (including the crank), allows for much higher surface area for the belt to grip.

You may also find that the allen head will start to strip before you get it loose. I'd go right for the "external" extractor socket (the "Bolt Grip" setup from Irwin is fantastic). It also provides more torque by bringing the contact point further from the center.

DO NOT slam on the bolt head. You will likely damage the camshaft and/or cam carrier.

You also should put the timing marks in alignment before getting too much farther. The crankshaft timing mark is middle stroke for all 4 cylinders, letting you rotate the camshafts freely without fear of hitting the pistons. Failing to do so lands you in the current predicament of "stuck engine".

But in order to get all of your marks to line-up again, you will have to slowly "counter rotate" the camshaft while rotating the crankshaft. Like a slow-motion rewind. It will require AT LEAST two hands, maybe more.

 

[traildogck]

Y
You may also find that the allen head will start to strip before you get it loose. I'd go right for the "external" extractor socket (the "Bolt Grip" setup from Irwin is fantastic).

Yeah, these are good.

 

[Berge56]

Make sure you buy a 10mm impact socket too. You can find them on amazon for 10-15 bucks. The non impact rated stuff isn't hard enough and will cause the bolt head to strip or round off.