Need some help seriously

Ok, This is Kat's husband.

Apparently she left out a key piece of information about the whole situation up until I was under the dash checking for continuity on the starter relay.

OK, here is the deal. Apparently while she was cleaning the car yesterday, she had all the doors open including the rear gate. My son had ran across the yard and was starting to go into the street. She ran to grab him and when she got back to the car, the hazards were flashing. She tried pushing the hazard light button on the center console and they still would not go out, so she took it upon herself to disconnect the battery to make them stop flashing.

Now the car will not turn over. Not sure why they would start flashing in the first place, but at this point I am assuming it has something to do with the system immobilizer/alarm system or something of the like.

Attached is the wiring diagram for the starting circuit (2005, 2.5, non-turbo).

If I understand this circuit correctly (this is my own take on it), when the key is turned to ON, the Body Integrated Unit (BIU), which incorporates the security/immobilizer system (if equipped -- see the cars101.com page linked above), grounds pin 1 of the Security Relay. When the key is turned to Start, power is connected from the ignition switch to ST-1 (fuse #21) and from there to pin 3 of the Security Relay. The relay engages, so that pins 2 and 5 are connected. At the same time, pin B32 of the ECM is grounded when the Inhibitor Switch (gear lever) is in P or N, so that pin 16 of the Starter Relay is grounded. With 12 V at pin 15 of the Starter Relay (ST-1), the relay engages, connecting pins 13 and 14. This applies 12 V from ST-2 to the starter solenoid winding, at B14.

A troubleshooting approach:

First, disconnect the single wire connector (not the heavy cable from the battery) at the starter (B14). With the Fluke multimeter, check if there's 12 V there when the key is turned to Start. (I suspect not, but it's better to be sure.)

If there's no 12 V at the starter solenoid, find and remove fuse #21 in the in-cabin fuse box. It should be labeled as "Starter Relay". See your Owners Manual, around page 12-6, for fuse locations. (And again check that the fuse is good -- it's critical to this circuit.)

With the Fluke multimeter, itself check which of the two fuse "receptacles" on the fuse panel (there's two, one for each of fuse #21's blades) gets 12 V -- relative to a good ground -- only when the key is turned to Start. Then check that the other receptacle has no voltage. (This second side is equivalent to ST-1, and connects to the Security Relay coil.)

Next, with the key at Off, then ON, and then Start, check the resistance to ground at the second receptacle. It shouldn't be more than a few hundred Ohms (i.e., the sum of the resistance of the Security Relay coil and the BIU circuit) with the key at ON and/or Start.

If the resistance is "open circuit" or very high, then the Security Relay isn't being activated (pin 1 of the Security Relay isn't being grounded), and this prevents the rest of the starter circuit from functioning. This could be due to a glitch in the BIU/security system caused by the slowly dying battery, or some other fault that occurred, coincidentally.

The Security Relay is buried somewhere in the center console area, more or less in behind the radio and heater controls. But I doubt the relay itself is bad -- possible, but not likely.

I've also attached the supposed location of the starter relay. This also isn't in a very accessible location, but might be needed if the primary part of the circuit, the Security Relay action, turns out to be working.

In the wiring diagram, where there's a difference between cars with automatic and manual transmissions, the wires related to the automatic versions are identified as "AT" and the manual wiring as "MT". All other wiring is the same for both. So, for example, the automatic version does not have a neutral position switch or a clutch switch.

Perhaps this will help narrow down what's happening.

Kat said:

Ok, This is Kat's husband.

Apparently she left out a key piece of information about the whole situation up until I was under the dash checking for continuity on the starter relay.

OK, here is the deal. Apparently while she was cleaning the car yesterday, she had all the doors open including the rear gate. My son had ran across the yard and was starting to go into the street. She ran to grab him and when she got back to the car, the hazards were flashing. She tried pushing the hazard light button on the center console and they still would not go out, so she took it upon herself to disconnect the battery to make them stop flashing.

Now the car will not turn over. Not sure why they would start flashing in the first place, but at this point I am assuming it has something to do with the system immobilizer/alarm system or something of the like.

Click to expand...

My post above was drafted before I saw this one. Perhaps it's still relevant so I'll leave it.

However, I'm not clear now on whether there was/is a run-down (discharged) battery in this story, or if the only symptom was the flashing lights (it would be the turn signal lights) and the battery being disconnected, but the battery never actually was discharged.

If so, I suspect that for some reason yet to be determined, the security system interpreted a combination of factors, such as all the doors open, and the battery being disconnected as an attempt to steal the car. On earlier security systems -- 1st generation OBs -- if the battery was disconnected and then reconnected, the lights would start flashing incessantly until the remote control lock/unlock buttons were pressed , but I didn't think this was carried over to 2005+. Have you tried using the keyless entry remote to "unlock" the car, and perhaps reset the system?

This is Kat's husband. I decided I would just create an account to avoid confusion.

I am now really confused after looking at the starting system schematics provided by plain OM. It does not look anything like the one I received from my local Subaru tech via fax. He also doesn't think my car has the immobilizer system installed, but he is checking for sure with the VIN and will get a hold of me sometime Thursday afternoon. The fuse/relay diagram is spot on though.

Ok, I think I should provide the entire story. I have had to piece it together myself. That way everybody is on the same page as I am.
It may be pretty long.

I am an Active Duty member of the military and I work (currently) 6pm-6am.

I came home Monday morning from work with intentions to purchase a new Subaru Tribeca after I woke up. My wife thought it would be a good idea to clean up/out the 2005 Subaru Outback Wagon 2.5i that I was going to trade in. She cleaned/vacuumed it out. While cleaning it, she must have hit the *virgin* switch on the top of the steering column. She then got the steam cleaner out and did the floors and the upholstery. All the doors and rear hatch was open so it could air out. Just as she finished, she noticed my son (18 months old) was running across the yard and was about to run into the street. She ran to grab him, and when she came back the parking lights were flashing. She then immediately tried to turn them off (thinking she hit the hazard switch) and pressed the switch once (keep in mind, the switch is now engaged). After they did not go out, she took it upon herself to make them go out by any means possible and decided to disconnect the battery. When she disconnected the battery, she left it off the "red" post for approx 5 minutes and then reconnected, at which point the hazards were still flashing (remember, the switch is still engaged). She went next door to the neighbors house and grabbed the neighbor (I am still sleeping at this point) he walked over to the car and pressed the hazard switch (which really just disengaged it) and they stoppped flashing. Three hours later, I woke up. Immediately, I am asked to help a neighbor out with a wiring issue (ironic, I know) on his camper. I fix his trailer light plug and walk back home with my tools. As I get to my driveway, I noticed my parking lights are on and dim. I did not try and start it, I just removed the battery from the car and stuck it on the trickle charger all night long. The following day, I put it back in the car and tried to start it. Nothing. I had assumed the battery was shot, until I stuck the Fluke on it and it read 13.8 volts. I then immdeiately started troubleshooting.
13.8 volts at the battery.
13.8 volts at the starter (main supply wire)
0.0 volts at the solenoid while ignition is engaged in the starting position.
13.8 volts on the back side of the starter relay when ignition is engaged in the starting position. (0 volts when it is not engaged.)
Was able to jump the battery to the solenoid and did get it started. Turned it off and tried to start it conventionally, and got nothing.

This is where I am at now.

Fighting_Illini said:

This is Kat's husband. I decided I would just create an account to avoid confusion.

I am now really confused after looking at the starting system schematics provided by plain OM. It does not look anything like the one I received from my local Subaru tech via fax. He also doesn't think my car has the immobilizer system installed, but he is checking for sure with the VIN and will get a hold of me sometime Thursday afternoon. The fuse/relay diagram is spot on though.

Ok, I think I should provide the entire story. I have had to piece it together myself. That way everybody is on the same page as I am.
It may be pretty long.

I am an Active Duty member of the military and I work (currently) 6pm-6am.

I came home Monday morning from work with intentions to purchase a new Subaru Tribeca after I woke up. My wife thought it would be a good idea to clean up/out the 2005 Subaru Outback Wagon 2.5i that I was going to trade in. She cleaned/vacuumed it out. While cleaning it, she must have hit the *virgin* switch on the top of the steering column. She then got the steam cleaner out and did the floors and the upholstery. All the doors and rear hatch was open so it could air out. Just as she finished, she noticed my son (18 months old) was running across the yard and was about to run into the street. She ran to grab him, and when she came back the parking lights were flashing. She then immediately tried to turn them off (thinking she hit the hazard switch) and pressed the switch once (keep in mind, the switch is now engaged). After they did not go out, she took it upon herself to make them go out by any means possible and decided to disconnect the battery. When she disconnected the battery, she left it off the "red" post for approx 5 minutes and then reconnected, at which point the hazards were still flashing (remember, the switch is still engaged). She went next door to the neighbors house and grabbed the neighbor (I am still sleeping at this point) he walked over to the car and pressed the hazard switch (which really just disengaged it) and they stoppped flashing. Three hours later, I woke up. Immediately, I am asked to help a neighbor out with a wiring issue (ironic, I know) on his camper. I fix his trailer light plug and walk back home with my tools. As I get to my driveway, I noticed my parking lights are on and dim. I did not try and start it, I just removed the battery from the car and stuck it on the trickle charger all night long. The following day, I put it back in the car and tried to start it. Nothing. I had assumed the battery was shot, until I stuck the Fluke on it and it read 13.8 volts. I then immdeiately started troubleshooting.
13.8 volts at the battery.
13.8 volts at the starter (main supply wire)
0.0 volts at the solenoid while ignition is engaged in the starting position.
13.8 volts on the back side of the starter relay when ignition is engaged in the starting position. (0 volts when it is not engaged.)
Was able to jump the battery to the solenoid and did get it started. Turned it off and tried to start it conventionally, and got nothing.

This is where I am at now.

Click to expand...

Kat said:

Ok, I labeled each one of the questions or statements that could be answered.

1. Yes, that is correct. They used a wire to go directly from the battery to the solenoid.
2. Checked the wire at the battery. It showed 12.8 volts.
Checked the wire at the starter. It showed 12.8 volts.
3. Battery checked, red to positive and black to negative.
4. All fuses were tested with my husbands Fluke 77III multimeter for resistance. He said all fuses were fine, including the big ones under the hood.
5. As far as I know, all simple stuff has been checked.
6. It is the stock security system.
7. yes, we tried both keys and still nothing.[/FONT]

My husband even went as far as taking apart the shifter console and verifying if the switch in there was working properly (which it is).


Car is just not cranking.

Also, husband has said, all electrical works as normal (except starting issue), including lights on the dash and there isn't a check engine light.

Click to expand...

Wow haha, sometimes you gotta take a step back and just laugh for a moment. Ok, moving on... I really got to say it sounds like a simple dead battery to me...hear me out.

I'm not clear form your posts that all the "stupid stuff" was checked so just to be clear to all trying help I'll ask these "stupid questions" and move on to the next part so you can move forward. I'm going to assume for the moment that since you have a REAL multi-meter and not some silly ohm meter you have already tried all this but it's worth asking anyway. I know that sometimes I get flustered and can miss something simple, spend hours checking the wrong stuff and forgot to check something easy like a breaker. Maybe you are like me, maybe not.

#1) When you powered the solenoid did the car actually start or did you simply hear the solenoid engage? If the car did really actually start, then you might have a wiring/fuse/relay problem. If not you might still have a battery problem (even if it did start you might still have a battery problem)
#2) ok you checked voltage but did you check OHM's? As you may know sometimes voltage will carry fine but the amps don't get through because of resistance.
#3) So you did not get a NEW battery? Did you have the old battery load tested (for amps)? I'm not sure you can do a really do a good load test with a multi-meter. A machine is a better way to check. Did you make sure all electrical was OFF when you tired to start the car (like the head lights, saw a post that they were on when starting)? Does the battery have enough water in it? Did you try jumping the car at any point?
#8) You may or may not have an immobilizer, here is a comment on another thread: "Notes I've got say the immobilizer was only on the 2.5XT and 3.0R Outbacks in '08. Can't say for sure but we'd just check the dash for an immobilizer light if the car were here in front of us." -lockmedic Here is that post in full, basically some Outbacks have the system and some don't, that doesn't mean something with the security system isn't causing a disruption which you no doubt rightly suspect.
Repalcing key/flob
#9) Not familiar with what the *virgin* button is, but I'm not sure it's related

Moving on:
This post sounds similar to what happened to you: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/80-electrical-electronics/42744-alarm-keyless-entry-non-start-issues.html

I really suggest looking at the stuff plain OM gave you. He's posted in some other electrical posts and seems to know what he is talking about. The dealers don't always know what they are talking about and get a group of five people together and you'll hear a story about how a dealership royally screwed something up. I don't have diagrams for that year or I could just say which one was right.

Baring all that you really should look at getting an ASE Tech in there to check things out as all the simple stuff would have been checked with everything above (well plain OM stuff is more medium). It probably is just a relay but unless you have automotive electrical training (like I do) your more likely than not the break something else checking stuff.

You might have that training, but if not get help. If you were closer to WA I'd be willing to take a stab at it. By the way, Thank You for serving!

Novablue said:

Wow haha, sometimes you gotta take a step back and just laugh for a moment. Ok, moving on... I really got to say it sounds like a simple dead battery to me...hear me out.

I'm not clear form your posts that all the "stupid stuff" was checked so just to be clear to all trying help I'll ask these "stupid questions" and move on to the next part so you can move forward. I'm going to assume for the moment that since you have a REAL multi-meter and not some silly ohm meter you have already tried all this but it's worth asking anyway. I know that sometimes I get flustered and can miss something simple, spend hours checking the wrong stuff and forgot to check something easy like a breaker. Maybe you are like me, maybe not.

#1) When you powered the solenoid did the car actually start or did you simply hear the solenoid engage? If the car did really actually start, then you might have a wiring/fuse/relay problem. If not you might still have a battery problem (even if it did start you might still have a battery problem)
#2) ok you checked voltage but did you check OHM's? As you may know sometimes voltage will carry fine but the amps don't get through because of resistance.
#3) So you did not get a NEW battery?
#4)Did you have the old battery load tested (for amps)? I'm not sure you can do a really do a good load test with a multi-meter. A machine is a better way to check.
#5)Did you make sure all electrical was OFF when you tired to start the car (like the head lights, saw a post that they were on when starting)? #6)Does the battery have enough water in it?
#7) Did you try jumping the car at any point?
#8) You may or may not have an immobilizer, here is a comment on another thread: "Notes I've got say the immobilizer was only on the 2.5XT and 3.0R Outbacks in '08. Can't say for sure but we'd just check the dash for an immobilizer light if the car were here in front of us." -lockmedic Here is that post in full, basically some Outbacks have the system and some don't, that doesn't mean something with the security system isn't causing a disruption which you no doubt rightly suspect.
Repalcing key/flob
#9) Not familiar with what the *virgin* button is, but I'm not sure it's related

Moving on:
This post sounds similar to what happened to you: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...744-alarm-keyless-entry-non-start-issues.html

I really suggest looking at the stuff plain OM gave you. He's posted in some other electrical posts and seems to know what he is talking about. The dealers don't always know what they are talking about and get a group of five people together and you'll hear a story about how a dealership royally screwed something up. I don't have diagrams for that year or I could just say which one was right.

Baring all that you really should look at getting an ASE Tech in there to check things out as all the simple stuff would have been checked with everything above (well plain OM stuff is more medium). It probably is just a relay but unless you have automotive electrical training (like I do) your more likely than not the break something else checking stuff.

You might have that training, but if not get help. If you were closer to WA I'd be willing to take a stab at it. By the way, Thank You for serving!

Click to expand...

Answers:

#1) Car started and ran when I jumped the solenoid to the battery direct.
#2) I have yet to check resistance, as I did not have the right schematics until yesterday morning.
#3)I did get a new battery, installed it, still nothing. Called AutoZone and had them load test my old battery, tested fine with 6 cycles. Returned new battery and got old battery back.
#4)Yes, see answer #3
#5)Everything was off except dash lights and daytime running lights.
#6)It is a sealed Exide Orbital battery.
#7)Car was jumped multiple times the proper way Positive post to Positive post and ground to ground (not negative post to negative post)
#8)According to cars101, I do not have a immobilizer on my model
#9)Virgin switch:

nipper said:

It turns on the outside parking lights. It is required for Europe, and lovingly known as the virgin switch. For subaru virgins, it will kill your battery

Click to expand...

Battery is a sealed spiral cell Exide Orbital battery, less than 3 months old, can be taken down to 5% of total power and restored to normal, although I wouldn't advise doing so though. Purchased due to wife's past history of killing 3 car batteries in less than 18 months.

13.8 volts at the battery.
13.8 volts at the starter (main supply wire)
0.0 volts at the solenoid while ignition is engaged in the starting position.
13.8 volts on the back side of the starter relay when ignition is engaged in the starting position. (0 volts when it is not engaged.)
Was able to jump the battery to the solenoid and did get it started. Turned it off and tried to start it conventionally, and got nothing.

Click to expand...

I would like to see the diagram that the Subaru tech sent you. Was it sent electronically? Can you attach it to a post here, or upload it to a photo website and provide a link to it?

There might be confusion between the immobilizer and the security system. They are distinct. The security system is what I would describe as the "mechanical" theft prevention which typically activates if a door is opened (or the car is bumped if the optional shock sensors are installed) when the keyless entry control expects the doors to be locked and none to open.

The immobilizer only deals with whether or not the right key is being used in the ignition to start the car. This prevents a copied key, without the proper transponder embedded in it and registered with the car, from being used to start the car. While the car might not have the immobilizer, I believe the security system, which is part of the keyless entry function, was standard on all models.

I found this description of the anti-theft alarm in the 2005 Service Manual (bold added):

5. Alarm System (Burglar Alarm System)
A: FEATURES
The alarm system protects the vehicle from a theft action (unauthorized entry into the vehicle). Upon detection of such an action, it gives alarm by causing the horn to sound and the hazard warning lights to flash.
Unauthorized entry is monitored through the switches on the doors, rear gate, and trunk lid. If any of the switches is turned ON, the system interprets it as an attempt of unauthorized entry and gives alarm warning. Unauthorized entry is also monitored by the impact sensor (dealer option). The system operates in the same manner as mentioned above whenever the sensor senses an abnormal impact on the vehicle.
1. WARNING
When activated, the alarm system causes the hazard warning lights to flash and the horn to sound intermittently. In addition to this, the security indicator light in the combination meter lights up. The alarms automatically turn OFF after 30 seconds. However, they will be reactivated if the vehicle is tampered with again.
The alarms are activated when a door, rear gate or trunk lid is opened without unlocking with the keyless entry transmitter. (When the system is set, a warning is given even if a door is opened by operating the inner door handle.) The alarms are also activated when an impact on vehicle body is sensed. (Only vehicles with an impact sensor, which is available as dealer option.) On vehicles with an impact sensor, the alarms are activated even if electrical wirings for these equipment are cut.

Did you try the keyless entry remote unlock, lock or rear gate button to see if this function works (door unlock, lock, and the buzzer beeps accordingly), and if doing so might reset the system. (If the system has been triggered, which seems to be the case based on the hazard lights flashing "on their own", perhaps the Security Relay won't be activated when trying to start the car, at least until the security system is reset. And with the relay not activated the whole starter system is disabled.)

If there's no voltage at the solenoid B14 wire (WB) with the key at Start, then we know that the problem is elsewhere. Without the 12 V at the solenoid, the solenoid (which acts as a heavy duty switch) engage, so there's no connection from the battery positive cable to the starter motor winding itself.

At the Starter Relay, where did you measure the 12 V? (Can you identify the pins?) There should be 12 V at pins 13, 14, and 15 if the rest of starter system is working properly. If there's 12 V at pins 13 and 15 only, it's because the relay isn't closed. That means working back in the starter system.

Incidentally, noted your amateur radio affiliation. Same here. 73

p.s. Does the car have a remote starter system?

And, while we're not clear on whether or not the car has the immobilizer, here's a description:

6. Immobilizer System
A: CONSTRUCTION
The immobilizer system consists of the following components: combination meter, body integrated unit, engine control module (ECM), transponder inside the ignition key, and an antenna fitted to the key cylinder. The antenna receives a vehicle ID code emitted from the transponder when the key is inserted into the key cylinder. The ID code is transmitted to the body integrated unit. The body integrated unit compares the code with a one that has been registered in it. The body integrated unit also compares the ID code with the ECM and the combination meter. If these ID codes match with each other, the system allows
the engine to be started. The engine may be able to start when the key is inserted even if the codes do not match. The engine, however, will automatically stop after a few seconds.

The immobilizer function is activated automatically when the key is removed from the key cylinder and when 60 seconds have passed after the ignition switch was turned to the “ACC” or “OFF” position. When the function is activated, the indicator light on the combination meter flashes at intervals of 0.2 seconds ON and 2.8 seconds OFF. (When security system is not set) This indicator light flashing indicates to the thief that the system is ready to function. If the immobilizer system fails, an incorrect key is used or an incorrect ECM is installed, the immobilizer indicator light will illuminate when the key is inserted into the key cylinder or when the ignition switch is turned ON.
NOTE:
To heighten the anti-theft performance of the immobilizer system, the system is designed in a way that the immobilizer cannot be deactivated by simply reconnecting the wiring or by replacing parts. Therefore, care must be taken when replacing or repairing the related components.

You seem like a saavy (albeit perhaps unfairly irritated with the wifey) dude. . . the type that can read a service manual.

Here's one Index of /ilh/vacation

the "2005 vacation pics" might prove useful. I dunno where that guy went on vacation but I'm betting his kids were bored. We thank him tho.

Not my link. . . found it over on legacygt.org.

If you've got no power at the starter solenoid might as well approach it methodically. Do you have power at the starter wire at the ignition switch? If so, the answer to your problem lies between that and the starter. If not, it lies between the switch and battery. Either way, time to roll up your sleeves and start testing stuff.

There is no immobilizer on a 2005.

Yes, I have power at the ignition switch down and on both side of the the starter relay when engaging the starter via the ignition switch. I know the issue lies between the starter relay and the solenoid.

Click to expand...

"both sides of the starter relay". Just want to be sure: Is this at pins 13 and 14 of the Starter Relay?

Pins 13 and 15 should have 12 V on them when the key is at Start. But for the starter solenoid to work, there has to be 12 V at pin 14. This will happen if the relay is energized and it will be energized if the Security Relay is closed etc.

If there is 12 V at pin 14, and if the wiring diagram I attached earlier is correct, there's nothing other than wiring from pin 14 to the starter solenoid connector. It would be quite surprising if that wiring somehow went open circuit, e.g., a wire broke. But it's not impossible.

It should be possible to check for continuity from pin 14 to the solenoid using some extra wire to extend the Fluke test leads. Absolute accuracy isn't needed -- either the resistance is "low", or it's infinite.

plain OM said:

"both sides of the starter relay". Just want to be sure: Is this at pins 13 and 14 of the Starter Relay?

Pins 13 and 15 should have 12 V on them when the key is at Start. But for the starter solenoid to work, there has to be 12 V at pin 14. This will happen if the relay is energized and it will be energized if the Security Relay is closed etc.

If there is 12 V at pin 14, and if the wiring diagram I attached earlier is correct, there's nothing other than wiring from pin 14 to the starter solenoid connector. It would be quite surprising if that wiring somehow went open circuit, e.g., a wire broke. But it's not impossible.

It should be possible to check for continuity from pin 14 to the solenoid using some extra wire to extend the Fluke test leads. Absolute accuracy isn't needed -- either the resistance is "low", or it's infinite.

Click to expand...

Now that I have the proper schematics, I am going to be able to troubleshoot more. I attempted to upload the schematic that I received from the Subaru service tech but I believe I need to have a certain number of posts or I need to be a paid member. I finally have a few days off (3 days) that I can really dig into it. Right now I am working 5 days a week, 12 hrs a day. Tis the season for SAR (search and rescue) and it is the time of year when people pull their boats out of winter storage and put them back in the water. It never fails that quite a few people fail to replace their boat plugs or flip the switch to energize their bilge pumps.

I just got my ticket last year. However I have been working MF, HF, VHF, and UHF for the past 12 years. I meant to get it a long time ago, but a few unfriendly/unhelpful hams kind of made me think twice. I intend to get my Extra ticket sometime soon, but making E-6 is much higher on my list of priorities. Right now, I mainly work DX. Not too many clubs up here in Maine or even public repeaters for that matter.

As soon as I dig in tomorrow afternoon, I will advise what my findings are.

73's