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2005 Outback 3.0R VDC/VTD/LSD 5eat , 2.8'' lift
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Discussion Starter #1
all started that day , when i went and bough myself new outback 2005 3.0 with LPG, as most of us do in this country or country arround as Poland , Russia and others.
so when i drove test it was all good drove fine but i didint pushed it much for testing just drove around and its good i bought it.
then goind home about 100km on highway doing some testing from low speed to high speeds seeing how it accelerate compare to my previous 2.5 and such, but then LPG started to leak, found that LPG reducer, so changed that in first week, then with new LPG reducer guy who deals with LPG found that one of LPG injector failing at low revs making too rich fuel mix . so he said that this problem wont be much deal at higher revs higher speeds just on low, but it started to bring check engine lights , so then when i drove on petrol there where no check engine lights.
so i drove like that for weeks and months, and with LPG i was getting cyl 3 missfire and then 5 . but nothing was on petrol, though car wasnt driving great all time, sometime it was good sometimes not. i mean it felt like missiong power like something holding it.
so now i used injector cleaner liquid that i put into petrol and drove around and now im starting to get cyl 2 missfire on petrol. but its pops like straight away. i get it that i mixed petrol with that thing so petrol became bad maybe as it cleaned fuel system. but now i drive on normal petrol and its same.
and about off roading in reverse it feels like car just dont have or dont give any power at all or like . its similar feeling when i trying to launch from stop or from turn, its like doing nothing for couple second and just then it shoots forward when revs goes up and drops gear to lower one . so it got some problems there. at higher speed feels like its goes ok power is there when revs goes over 2k rpm or higher .
then again it depends from day to day it feels different like random .
is this normal for it to be this way ? same thing TC on or off.

 

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2005 Outback 3.0R VDC/VTD/LSD 5eat , 2.8'' lift
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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
and i recorded torque pro what raw data shows while driving from stop, if that give any important info there


today drove around in city and outside it drives not ok on low revs car is shaking a little it can be felt, and with that louder exhaust now that i removed rear mufflers you can hear better when something is not right with engine .
those rear mufflers couldnt be reasons for cylinder missfire or too rich or too lean fuel mix could they ?
so i think that reason why its not driving reverse better , because its not working ok on those low revs.
and today i got cyl 2 and cyl 4 errors and with those some too lean fuel mix error that i got couple days ago too.
 

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2001 VDC/SC One of a Kind
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Your O2 sensors are staying on low voltages even when your engine is pulling. 0.1 and lower is like off throttle deceleration. If the rear O2 sensors are working, the cats may be clogged and that's your problem. The fuel trim numbers look good, so I'm inclined to think the engine can't breath.
 

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The fuel trim numbers look good, so I'm inclined to think the engine can't breath.
STFT 1 (left panel) is around -20% most of the time (Ranges from about -16 to -25%).
Also, O2S1Eq is 0.0, and AFR(m) is 0.0:1. (Not sure of these parameter descriptions, but if they're what I think they are, they could be driving the highly negative STFT on bank 1.)
 

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2005 Outback VDC limited 3.0r
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I know initial stumbling can sometimes be caused by the throttle body being a bit dirty. Its recommended to clean them. Especially if you notice the revs kind of dive off throttle/coming to a stop.
 

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@SwitchPNW Correct. The TB can be an issue if it's loaded with carbon. It won't open proper or fast enough, it will give erroneous feedback and acceleration will lag. The throttle body on this car is not an issue.

Scalman moved a conversation we've been having on a few other threads over the last few months to here so we can keep everything in one spot. He's in Lithuania and his car runs on gasoline or LPG; has 2 control modules and fuel systems that switch depending on what he wants to run and has had problems come and go since he bought it last year with one constant - misfires.

To get you up to speed, he's checked and repaired quite a few things. Grounding, battery power, switches, recent tune up, and more. The issue now seems to be fueling and possibly something with the cats or rear sensor feedback. The video posted above is when he thought he may be having transmission issues popping up. That wasn't the case. It's engine management and performance. Singular or multiple misfires that are erratic with exception to cylinder 2 which is staying consistent. Since this engine has equalizing ports in the heads, too much fuel shot, or leaking, in to one cylinder will affect the neighboring cylinder(s). He's been advised that one of the LPG injectors is flaky by a local mechanic.

The ECM is reporting cylinder 2 misfire, but the Torque App is showing a large reduction in fueling on Bank 1, so I think the App is reading the PIDs incorrectly. Only way to verify is to look at the same data with a different scan tool or APP. Preferably a scan tool, or Rom Raider.

@scalman Is it possible that LPG fuel is leaking even though you are running on petrol? In other words, the engine is getting both fuels fed to bank 2 due to a bad injector or pressure issue. This would account for the misfires being worse when you run petrol than with the LPG.
 

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2005 Outback 3.0R VDC/VTD/LSD 5eat , 2.8'' lift
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Discussion Starter #8
throtle body you mean that ? i cleaned it some time ago, was thinking similar and tried to clean stuff there


so if cats are clogged whats easiest way to test that out ? remove them and drive . i know many ppl removing them and driving with imitations that are empty inside.
if its O2 sensors what way to test them , on my previous outback i had errors that told me that sensors are bad , car still drove ok , engine wasnt choking like here or anything.

when LPG is turned off or switched to petrol valve blocks LPG to go anywhere so it cant just leak still it closes valve in rear on LPG tank and another valve under hood , i was checking those and they are working ok,i can remove LPG tube when its off and no gas would go outside. when i dissconected that timing cable from cylinder 2 coil socket ,black that was coming to LPG computer and from that LPG wasnt working anymore .\

could i did something when i used that injector cleaner that i put into petrol and drove for about 40km just on petrol ? because then errors keeps poping like more often and only on that cyl 2 .
i used that one

it was said use that all amount on 40l petrol and i used it like on 20l at time. could that do something to fuel injectors ? i think it would just clean them faster no ?

and today was another thing and day before i noticed same thing, error about cyl 2 poped up on petrol, but on LPG it was going away, today same error poped again on LPG as i was driving long distance so i used LPG .
and on petrol i couldnt reset errors, its like they were allways on even after torque app said they reseted, but on LPG i could reset errors. so seems like its now more harsh stuff on petrol comes up after i used that injector cleaner.
but car was not d riving good before too , similar fashion as now , it was laging from launch then it was shooting in front when revs went higher , yes it could feel like engine choking or its clogged or something like it doesnt let it to breath or something, it feels that way when i drive it , like i need to floor it for it to drive, and its changing to lover gear so often even when i think it would not need its change gear to lower on , just because its like doesnt have enough torque to drive.

i was driving just on petrol for those couple days when i was using that injector cleaner and car didint felt as it drive better or anything, its just random , sometime fuel mix is about good enough so car goes ok and then i brake before turn and then i want to drive fast from turn because car is coming so i drive off turn and i press gas pedal and nothing happens its just wont go .. then couple seconds it dropes to lower gear raises revs and shoots.
 

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You can take the manifolds down from the heads and run it open head; it's going to be loud though.

Or since you weld cut the pipe off right in front of the front catalytic converters. If it runs better and the misfires go away then you know where to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
and about that vacum if that helps anything
 

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The vacuum looks okay. The throttle is opening to move the car according to your foot. The MAP will come closer toward atmosphere (0.0) the more the throttle is opened.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You can take the manifolds down from the heads and run it open head; it's going to be loud though.

Or since you weld cut the pipe off right in front of the front catalytic converters. If it runs better and the misfires go away then you know where to go.
but what about those O2 sensors in those catalysts , they will still work if i like disconnect catalyst or cut pipe before them ? would i get errors then from those O2 sensors
yh anything so loud i dont know where i could i test that , not in city center for sure. maybe in forest but i saw how bad those bolts on manifolds looks , i doubt i could remove them without braking or smt. but i will go under car next day and see what could be done there to test that.
 

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If you cut the pipe behind the front sensors then it will allow for some fuel management and to see if the misfire and lugging goes away. You can leave the rear section alone, just strap it up so it doesn't hit the ground. The rear sensors aren't sending good feedback now, so no loss.

The purpose is to see if the engine breaths better with the cats out. If you have any pipe laying around, take the cats out altogether and weld in pipe.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
so mine are those ?

if i remove catalyst with pipe where those sensors will go then and how they will work. i need to bypass them or drill and put them inside ? ar look for people who are doing those works , because without catalysts i will need those O2 sensors to work still yes ?
 

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For testing purposes, you need the front sensors in the exhaust stream so it will go to closed loop. You don't need the rear ones. Once you find out if the cats are clogged and causing the problem then you decide if you want two cats installed or go with just pipe and dummy the rear sensors.
 

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One thing to try is un bolt the Resonator first. I have read of these breaking apart and clogging up, and then go to cats.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Could try resonator too as i removed rear mufflers allready that one would not be that hard i guess. If its unbolts that is. Will try thanks. Will tell results then.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
tried remove resonator/chamber was very loud , so just tested for 5km or so but up to speeds 100km/h . in that run errors didint pop up, but thats doesnt means that it was solved maybe catalysts clogged and that chamber just let some more to breath or errors just didint came up for random reason , not sure , cant test driving without catalysts would be just too loud or if i could maybe remove front O2 sensors so it would be that hole there and that would let engine to breath more.. maybe if it could remove them somewhere far away from city.
does car felt driving better , not sure was so loud that it was mixed feelings more from that sound , maybe it was getting revs better or faster but thats not solid , maybe it just felt that way, but error while driving without it didint come up.
then i put that back , started engine, drove couple meters and error came up right away again.

so thats driving without that resonator very loud but quite fast too. thats without error.

so i can see myself that those O2 sensors now where getting more voltage to them, up to 0.9v where before with resonator they where getting almost no voltage . so that means something is it ? and that STFT1 values now were on postive side sometimes too.
 

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I was going to suggest you take it out somewhere and run the rpm way up, like floor it and take off, but you've reinstalled the rear pipe.

If you remove the front sensors and let them just hang the fuel trim will be all wrong, mainly too rich, because the ECM will think the exhaust is way lean until it figures out there's a problem. This will cause misfires or other performance issues and won't be conclusive. If you remove the sensors altogether the ECM will stay in open loop and it will run oddball.

Since it ran better and without codes I'd say the resonator is bad or the muffler collapsed, or both.

Baby steps.

 
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