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Discussion Starter #61
Ok, thank you all for the lesson on the etiquette for the forum. I will definitely keep it in mind if I am speaking to someone particular.


I have a bit of good news to share with everyone although I am not claiming victory just yet. The cold start-up today went straight to high idle with no sputtering or stumbling so that is a great sign. One of the vacuum lines I touched yesterday may have been the culprit; miles and start-ups will be the test for sure.


I do have one part I still need and I will try to describe the location I have looked though Rock Auto and Advance Auto but I can't seem to find it. It is a plastic Y that connects the hose going to the top of the crankcase with the hose that goes to the PCV valve and also a hose into the front of the air cleaner. If anyone could give me a part number or source, that would great. That looks like my last compromised part I have besides the flexible rubber boot on the intake before the air filter box...
 

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Try the catalog at opposedforces.com

You can't buy anything directly from them, but it's an excellent technical reference with diagrams and factory part numbers. Then you can buy the parts from a subie dealer.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Stay tuned and I will let you know if clamping my vacuum lines fixed the problem...I am very hopeful based on how well it started cold today. Daughter said it ran just fine going to work.


opposedforces.com worked well...I now have a part number for the whole assembly (hoses included), thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Just a quick update for those following this thread; it has now been 3 days and the cold starting problem appears to be much better (car seems to start normally but it has been so long since I have seen what normal should be for this car :). Also, 200 miles have been put on it and so far, no CEL. I am not going to celebrate just yet but I am beginning to become optimistic. My work schedule is reversed for the next week but if all is well, I will post an update next Monday after the state inspection. At that point I hope to claim victory. Stay tuned...
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Update: so I get the dreaded text that the CEL came on...ugh! However I was also told that there was a gas smell too. Normally that would make a person unhappy but that actually made me happy to hear. Today I investigated and found the #1 fuel injector leaking at the rail. I changed the O-ring and tested it, no leaks! Hint; always fully disassemble the fuel rail if you need to service the injectors. I "thought" I was able to slide the injectors in without disconnecting everything but obviously I pinched the O-ring. I pulled the code and had a P0303...made sense to me because that fuel rail that was leaking services #1 & #3. It will be back on the road for the next few days and I will report back after the state inspection on Monday...
 

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Discussion Starter #70
Well, CEL again...this time P0304. The cold start-up problem seems to be back but this time on the #4 side. Back when I fixed the #1 injector leak, I noticed fuel traces on the #2 injector too so I changed that o-ring because it was damaged the same way the #1 one was. Obviously my hands touched something that brought back the cold start-up problem. I did an investigation and really didn't find anything solid, only two possibilities. Possibility 1: I lifted the #2/#4 injector rail out of the cylinder and noticed granular debris on the #4 injector seal, also down inside of where it seats. I cleaned it and carefully installed the rail. Possibility #2: After I tightened down the 12mm bolts holding the rail to the cylinder, I began installing the two 10mm bolts to secure the fuel lines to the intake. The one on the top lined up and installed fine. The line that bolts on the back side of the intake was at least 1/4 inch from the mounting hole. When I pushed on the line to get it back down to the intake, it torqued the #4 injector a bit to the side. It is possible when I changed the o-ring on the #2 injector, I bent that fuel line a bit and didn't notice how it changed the alignment of the #4 injector inside the cylinder when it was tightened back down again. So for now I left that bolt out to see if it has an effect. I think there is a good chance that the #4 injector was leaking vacuum air around its seat because it wasn't aligned properly but this is only a hunch. I will report back if anything happens. I am still trying to get this thing to state inspection on Monday...
 

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Discussion Starter #71
Well, for those tuned in, yesterday was a successful day and the car started just fine today; nice high idle at the first startup and no stumbling or sputtering at start-up...two more days and I can get it inspected!
 

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Discussion Starter #72
...so the CEL came on again, both codes, P0303 & P0304...did some checking and decided to go over all of the vacuum lines again. Found many of them to be loose when the car was hot so I replaced all of the lines that were original and clamped them. I cleared the codes and drove the car 100 miles tonight so it has enough miles for the emissions test. Car ran well, started good, no issues. The true test will be the cold start in the AM. Hopefully it goes good so I can proceed with the inspection. Wish me luck...
 

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...so the CEL came on again, both codes, P0303 & P0304...did some checking and decided to go over all of the vacuum lines again. Found many of them to be loose when the car was hot so I replaced all of the lines that were original and clamped them. I cleared the codes and drove the car 100 miles tonight so it has enough miles for the emissions test. Car ran well, started good, no issues. The true test will be the cold start in the AM. Hopefully it goes good so I can proceed with the inspection. Wish me luck...
They are pesky....Much luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Drum roll please....ok, I have a new emissions sticker on the car, yeah! Two new sway bar links and a passenger front wheel bearing and I will get a new state inspection sticker too.


Cold startup this morning was just fine. Started, no hesitation and idled at 1500 RPM or so. I have started the car more than a dozen times since replacing and re-clamping everything and I think the problem is solved. So for this thread, it covers just about everything possible for misfire issues but in my situation, the misfires were the secondary problem. I had a cold start problem; the symptoms were loss of fuel pressure on the fuel rail after sitting 6 hours and misfires on 3 & 4 during startup. The solution; vacuum lines slooooowly leaking.


Special thanks to traildogck, eagleeye and grossgary for help and encouragement along the way. Others helped too but special thanks to those guys!
 

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Very good to hear.

I had fuel and vacuum on the brain from the recent frustrating work on my own car, and then another car...with similar issues.

It was your diligence that got it done though. :29:
 

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Been watching here to see if the hoses were the root cause. So, age --> weakness --> leaking around fittings and, maybe, through the hoses walls (small cracks?)? A long route, but it seems you're finally there.

There's far fewer hoses on my NA 07 2.5. I've done some clamping, but I might just put together a list to replace all of them once-and-for-all, with clamps!

Anyone know why the fuel trim goes positive when the PVC hose to the intake manifold is pinched off? I'm still trying to figure that out: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/254522-logging-ecu-data-2-5-non-turbo-what-about-iam-what-value-do-you-have-3.html#post3282298
 

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Anyone know why the fuel trim goes positive when the PVC hose to the intake manifold is pinched off? I'm still trying to figure that out: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/254522-logging-ecu-data-2-5-non-turbo-what-about-iam-what-value-do-you-have-3.html#post3282298
I wonder if a hot modern gasoline injected engine could pull some excess gas through the injectors to if you did that,

like the fuel system is the easiest pressure relief vs. sucking a rubber line actually shut with the pressure.

similar to a big diesel truck sucking after the switch is off, that needs a fuel shut off to "kill it",
or a old worn out carburetor causing "classic run on" after you turn the key off.
 

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I wonder if a hot modern gasoline injected engine could pull some excess gas through the injectors to if you did that,

like the fuel system is the easiest pressure relief vs. sucking a rubber line actually shut with the pressure.

similar to a big diesel truck sucking after the switch is off, that needs a fuel shut off to "kill it",
or a old worn out carburetor causing "classic run on" after you turn the key off.
Should pull this over to the other thread (I didn't mean to "hijack" seanlivolsi's great discussion here), but yes, if the intake vacuum increases as a result of the closed PCV path, the relative pressure across the injector increases, and more fuel will be drawn through. But that would cause a richer mix, which, notwithstanding other changes such as rpm and throttle position, should lead to a negative, rather than positive, adjustment in the fuel trim.

However, your idea has me revisiting the logs. Some of the PIDs might not be detailed enough to identify when changes begin. Might have to redo them, particularly, the PCV cut-off. Will post over on my IAM thread.
 

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Should pull this over to the other thread (I didn't mean to "hijack" seanlivolsi's great discussion here), but yes, if the intake vacuum increases as a result of the closed PCV path, the relative pressure across the injector increases, and more fuel will be drawn through. But that would cause a richer mix, which, notwithstanding other changes such as rpm and throttle position, should lead to a negative, rather than positive, adjustment in the fuel trim.

@ntippet

@traildogck (... after consuming a whole supreme pizza).

might have something philosophic
 

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Plain:
I haven't followed this thread very closely.
Does the MAF g/s increase when the pcv is blocked?
I would expect it to, just wanted to check as an initial question.
 
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