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@SVig4


That log pattern looks very similar to what I have when the ECM runs the EVAPORATIVE EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM LEAK DETECT tests for P0442 etc., including the A/F Correction going unusually negative, although -29% is probably excessive.

The tank pressure dropped to -0.26 psi in about 12 seconds; my own tests show it half that, but it could still be within the test specs.

The canister drain valve is closed during part of the test. If the "switch" for the Drain valve were being monitored, we could know if the test was being run in that period.
I'm sorry, I just saw this. Would that mean to add another PID to check for in my log?
 

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I'm sorry, I just saw this. Would that mean to add another PID to check for in my log?
The EVAP test I was referring to is done only once in each drive cycle, and only under certain driving conditions. If a log record is being made when the test is run, having the added PID would help explain the tank pressure heading down and then goes up, which cardoc observed. However, it won't necessarily explain/resolve the high negative fuel trim at that time.

The PID is the Drain Valve Signal (aka Vent Control Solenoid), which is a "switch" control, i.e., it's either off or on, represented by zero, or a "one". I'm not sure what you are using to record the data. If Romraider, it's identified as the "Ventilation Solenoid Valve" under the "Switches" tab.

The rest of the log shows the tank staying just above atmosphere,
And I just noticed this in graphing the earlier log. The pressure before and after the presumed EVAP test is around 0.125 psi, or close to 0.9 kPa. On my 07, in the logs I have with Fuel Tank Pressure, it's generally at or slightly below zero. Of course, it's a different year, FED spec, etc,, so this is only an observation, but I do wonder why it is where it is . . .

In the latest log, with the CPC closed off, the tank pressure is still in the 0.16 - 0.18 psi range. No apparent change in pressure when the CPC changes (it's blocked off), but can't tell if any of the CPC changes are related to an EVAP test without the Ventilation Valve PID.
 

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The EVAP test I was referring to is done only once in each drive cycle, and only under certain driving conditions. If a log record is being made when the test is run, having the added PID would help explain the tank pressure heading down and then goes up, which cardoc observed. However, it won't necessarily explain/resolve the high negative fuel trim at that time.

The PID is the Drain Valve Signal (aka Vent Control Solenoid), which is a "switch" control, i.e., it's either off or on, represented by zero, or a "one". I'm not sure what you are using to record the data. If Romraider, it's identified as the "Ventilation Solenoid Valve" under the "Switches" tab.



And I just noticed this in graphing the earlier log. The pressure before and after the presumed EVAP test is around 0.125 psi, or close to 0.9 kPa. On my 07, in the logs I have with Fuel Tank Pressure, it's generally at or slightly below zero. Of course, it's a different year, FED spec, etc,, so this is only an observation, but I do wonder why it is where it is . . .

In the latest log, with the CPC closed off, the tank pressure is still in the 0.16 - 0.18 psi range. No apparent change in pressure when the CPC changes (it's blocked off), but can't tell if any of the CPC changes are related to an EVAP test without the Ventilation Valve PID.
So your saying I should go run another test and add in the Ventilation Valve PID while still clamping the EVAP hose?
 

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@SVig4

Did you have an opportunity to check the timing? I know it's a bit of a chore, but it seems there is something amiss with bank 1. You would need to take both covers off unless you have a good mirror and can see the timing mark on bank 1 through the small plug hole. The bank 2 cover is held with 3 screws and comes off easily without removing anything else. There is one point in the log where bank 1 AF is showing under 14:1 and this is generally due to a misfire on one or both cylinders. The fuel trim reacted for a short time. It doesn't have to be a complete misfire, just something that may cause an incomplete burn of the fuel in combustion. Along with this, the ECM is continually withdrawing fuel from bank 1 while 2 is running "normal".

The knock is still a bother also. The ECM is correcting fuel and timing up to 8° at one segment. That's either timing belt alignment (or weak tensioner) or carbon build up and I still believe it's bank 1.

With this last long log, I am certain the sensors are working properly. They are reacting quickly with the ECM changes.

You are going to need the Y-pipe setup. The pipes are sold as left and right side. There are a few manufacturers in Canada that have cats that will fit and work properly.

Spray all the sensors with PB Blaster everyday until you get the cats. You may need a small propane torch to heat the sensor bungs to help loosen them. Due to how the sensors are mounted, it will be easier to unplug the sensors from the car's harness and swap them after you get the pipes down.

Same seller:

 

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I just noticed that right side is a Davidco. I've had issues with them in the past.

Here's more:



 

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So your saying I should go run another test and add in the Ventilation Valve PID while still clamping the EVAP hose?
Not necessarily. That was only if there was a lingering question about the dropping tank pressure at one point in the log. If you were to run another log for another reason, added the PID, and the log shows the same tank pressure drop, the PID would help confirm whether or not the drop was due to the EVAP test.
 

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@SVig4

Did you have an opportunity to check the timing? I know it's a bit of a chore, but it seems there is something amiss with bank 1. You would need to take both covers off unless you have a good mirror and can see the timing mark on bank 1 through the small plug hole. The bank 2 cover is held with 3 screws and comes off easily without removing anything else. There is one point in the log where bank 1 AF is showing under 14:1 and this is generally due to a misfire on one or both cylinders. The fuel trim reacted for a short time. It doesn't have to be a complete misfire, just something that may cause an incomplete burn of the fuel in combustion. Along with this, the ECM is continually withdrawing fuel from bank 1 while 2 is running "normal".

The knock is still a bother also. The ECM is correcting fuel and timing up to 8° at one segment. That's either timing belt alignment (or weak tensioner) or carbon build up and I still believe it's bank 1.

With this last long log, I am certain the sensors are working properly. They are reacting quickly with the ECM changes.

You are going to need the Y-pipe setup. The pipes are sold as left and right side. There are a few manufacturers in Canada that have cats that will fit and work properly.

Spray all the sensors with PB Blaster everyday until you get the cats. You may need a small propane torch to heat the sensor bungs to help loosen them. Due to how the sensors are mounted, it will be easier to unplug the sensors from the car's harness and swap them after you get the pipes down.
I just checked the timing, and it looks like its all good (pictures below). As far as the carbon build up I need to go get gas today so I'll put a whole can of sea foam in with the fuel.

For the cats, you are sure that both are gone? Do we need to correct the knock and rich fuel before changing the cats? So one thing I have seen is that no one can ship aftermarket cats to California and none of the muffler shops are even able to get a hold of them for the 2005 CA spec Outback from the ones that I have talked to (I looked into it when I first got the P0420 code). I noticed all your listings are to eBay, is this a way around it? The muffler shop I talked to told me their only option for this car was direct from dealer which is 1100 for one side and 1600 for the other. How do I know I can use these aftermarket ones in CA?
IMG_20200620_091809.jpg IMG_20200620_091531.jpg
 

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The links I sent you for the cats should be good and it will be delivered to your house. Whoever says that you can't get catalytic converters delivered into California is FOS. The only cats available for your car are California cats. You can't put anything else on it.

As long as the crankshaft is in the right spot then I would say it's in time.
 

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On the carbon buildup. It's not putting it in the gas tank, it's running it through the intake manifold vacuum at a rich mix so it'll loosen that stuff up in the combustion chamber and it gets blown out.

There's some post on this forum about the drip method.
 

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The links I sent you for the cats should be good and it will be delivered to your house. Whoever says that you can't get catalytic converters delivered into California is FOS. The only cats available for your car are California cats. You can't put anything else on it.

As long as the crankshaft is in the right spot then I would say it's in time.
So what I mean is that everywhere I looked for all California Emissions cats that I see that it says they are not legal for use or sale in CA. See Picture below:
1.jpg
So then I started to call a couple friends who know people that own muffler shops, and they stated that they couldn't get any aftermarket cats for the vehicle and that their only option was direct from the manufacturer.
Edit: added context
 

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I enlarged the pic and that would explain the fueling and possibly some of the detonation. Fueling and Firing are off.

One, you'll need to pull that cover and get the engine in time. Check that the tensioner is not leaking and is actually holding tension on the belt. Make sure all the pulley bearings are DRY around their seals.

Two, when you order the exhaust from the eBay site, it will be delivered to you unless the seller is adamant about not delivering to a CA address, which would be odd. It's bolt on and can be done in your garage. All you need is a 1/2 drive ratchet, 14mm socket, 6" extension and some PB Blaster; maybe a small propane torch and a breaker bar. The center pipe bolts may be 12 or 14mm and you'll need a wrench, either 12 or 14, to hold the bolt or nut while you turn the other. 10 bolts in all hold it in. 3 on each head, 2 for the hanger behind the trans and 2 at the center pipe. The pipes will come with new gaskets. After the installation, the ECM will be happy with the cats. Unless you get a dudd, in which case the cat supplier will swap it after we show it's not working correctly.

The reason it says "Not Legal for Sale in California" is because California and the idiots that run CARB want the residents to buy OEM catalytic converters for their cars. You can also thank the many dealerships with lobbyist. The aftermarket cats work, sometimes better than OEM, but those boneheads are like the jackasses that run ASE, they think they know everything when in reality they are just flat wrong. They are both, CARB and ASE, stuck in a time warp and really don't have any understanding of how these systems work in conjunction with each other and manage engine performance. If I put a Benz or BMW, or any car really, in front of them with an engine light on, they won't know where to go beyond scanning the fault codes. After that, they're lost.

The notation in the add is a CYA for the seller. I've installed aftermarket cats on CARB cars and they've worked perfect after the engine performance had been corrected. I have a full aftermarket exhaust, engine to the bumper, coming for an 04 with an EJ259 (2.5 with DBW only sold in CA and New England for 2004; car is from Massachusetts. First indication was the resonator on the throttle body; it's the only 2.5 with that air box.) and CARB emissions. It's the oddball of the 2.5 engines. The aftermarket cats will work great.

I'll give you another tidbit to consider when it comes to the emissions standards in CA. If you pay the right people, you can have a modified car with NO CATS. They'll attach an exemption sticker to the core bracket or hood. And it's all legal. It's the loophole for rodders and custom car builders but it gets used in other ways. I've had 2 trucks under 10 years old in the last year show up here in Austin that had exemption stickers from CARB on them. Modified engines, modified ECMs, or aftermarket engine management, and catless. Whoever built them did good work.
 

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I enlarged the pic and that would explain the fueling and possibly some of the detonation. Fueling and Firing are off.

One, you'll need to pull that cover and get the engine in time. Check that the tensioner is not leaking and is actually holding tension on the belt. Make sure all the pulley bearings are DRY around their seals.

Two, when you order the exhaust from the eBay site, it will be delivered to you unless the seller is adamant about not delivering to a CA address, which would be odd. It's bolt on and can be done in your garage. All you need is a 1/2 drive ratchet, 14mm socket, 6" extension and some PB Blaster; maybe a small propane torch and a breaker bar. The center pipe bolts may be 12 or 14mm and you'll need a wrench, either 12 or 14, to hold the bolt or nut while you turn the other. 10 bolts in all hold it in. 3 on each head, 2 for the hanger behind the trans and 2 at the center pipe. The pipes will come with new gaskets. After the installation, the ECM will be happy with the cats. Unless you get a dudd, in which case the cat supplier will swap it after we show it's not working correctly.

The reason it says "Not Legal for Sale in California" is because California and the idiots that run CARB want the residents to buy OEM catalytic converters for their cars. You can also thank the many dealerships with lobbyist. The aftermarket cats work, sometimes better than OEM, but those boneheads are like the jackasses that run ASE, they think they know everything when in reality they are just flat wrong. They are both, CARB and ASE, stuck in a time warp and really don't have any understanding of how these systems work in conjunction with each other and manage engine performance. If I put a Benz or BMW, or any car really, in front of them with an engine light on, they won't know where to go beyond scanning the fault codes. After that, they're lost.

The notation in the add is a CYA for the seller. I've installed aftermarket cats on CARB cars and they've worked perfect after the engine performance had been corrected. I have a full aftermarket exhaust, engine to the bumper, coming for an 04 with an EJ259 (2.5 with DBW only sold in CA and New England for 2004; car is from Massachusetts. First indication was the resonator on the throttle body; it's the only 2.5 with that air box.) and CARB emissions. It's the oddball of the 2.5 engines. The aftermarket cats will work great.

I'll give you another tidbit to consider when it comes to the emissions standards in CA. If you pay the right people, you can have a modified car with NO CATS. They'll attach an exemption sticker to the core bracket or hood. And it's all legal. It's the loophole for rodders and custom car builders but it gets used in other ways. I've had 2 trucks under 10 years old in the last year show up here in Austin that had exemption stickers from CARB on them. Modified engines, modified ECMs, or aftermarket engine management, and catless. Whoever built them did good work.
I pulled the cover off and got to the timing. The weird part is that with the marks on the crankshaft and pulleys it looks like everything lines up pretty good. While looking at all the pulleys and bearings they all appear to be in good condition, no leaks. After looking around I noticed a tear in the timing belt, besides replacing the timing belt is there anything else I should do or look into while I have the cover off to help diagnose why there is knock correction?

IMG_20200621_141753.jpg IMG_20200621_141823.jpg IMG_20200621_141857.jpg IMG_20200621_142151~2.jpg IMG_20200621_142233.jpg
 

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That tear is interesting. Looks like someone may have been prying at the tensioner for some reason and nicked it. (I saw a newby do that once years ago. He was trying to compress the tensioner with a pry bar to get the pin in because he had the timing off a couple teeth and didn't verify prior to pulling the pin. 😯)

Looks like bank 2 is off a tooth. Could be the camera angle. Be sure to have it all lined up when you install the new belt.
 

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... why there is knock correction?
In your recent log we see Knock Correction Advance (KCA) which is the timing added to the base timing map but doesn't show timing withheld by the cars computer due to the knock sensor. There's an overall timing multiplier (IAM), short term feedback knock correction (FBKC) & memorised fine learned knock correction (FLKC). Would be good if you could have RomRaider read and share Learning Table Values via the Tools menu which is a good summary of knock health - doesn't need the engine running.
 

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That tear is interesting. Looks like someone may have been prying at the tensioner for some reason and nicked it. (I saw a newby do that once years ago. He was trying to compress the tensioner with a pry bar to get the pin in because he had the timing off a couple teeth and didn't verify prior to pulling the pin. 😯)

Looks like bank 2 is off a tooth. Could be the camera angle. Be sure to have it all lined up when you install the new belt.
I think it was just the camera angle that made it look that way. Anyways yesterday I was able to get a new timing belt and put it in, drove the car around and it appears that the Knock Correction Advance is still as low as -3 or as high as 7.

IMG_20200624_111410.jpg
 

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In your recent log we see Knock Correction Advance (KCA) which is the timing added to the base timing map but doesn't show timing withheld by the cars computer due to the knock sensor. There's an overall timing multiplier (IAM), short term feedback knock correction (FBKC) & memorised fine learned knock correction (FLKC). Would be good if you could have RomRaider read and share Learning Table Values via the Tools menu which is a good summary of knock health - doesn't need the engine running.
I tried adding the three different parameters that you listed and with them added the software was bugging out and wouldn't let me log a file, when I removed the three it let Rom Raider work again as normal... It was even having problems connecting to the ECU (I think specifically when i checked the IAM parameter) it kept Initializing ECU in loop. I wonder if I have too many parameters selected as I have 24 currently selected before adding those three.

I tried to have RR read and share the Learning Table Values but I got an error message that the ECU definition file is missing, I'm not really sure how to change this or where to begin...

IMG_20200624_104036.jpg
 

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The screen shot you have of the min/max values, was this after the timing belt and you drove it?

The fuel trims are off. Running data would help with figuring that out. Check for a vacuum leak.

The learning table needs your ECU Definition specifically. I have the same problems with some of the cars I connect to. My H6 R sedan is undetectable because RR isn't seeing the defs. I haven't looked to see if the ECU is listed, though.
 

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The screen shot you have of the min/max values, was this after the timing belt and you drove it?

The fuel trims are off. Running data would help with figuring that out. Check for a vacuum leak.

The learning table needs your ECU Definition specifically. I have the same problems with some of the cars I connect to. My H6 R sedan is undetectable because RR isn't seeing the defs. I haven't looked to see if the ECU is listed, though.
Yes, after the timing belt. I replaced it yesterday and then when I drove it today I took that screenshot.

How do I get my ECU definition? Is that in the RR settings?

And I do not know if this helps but the same guy that replaced the first timing belt (the ripped one) took apart the heads and had those machined, replaced the head gasket, and took the valves in to be resurfaced. If that gives you a hint to possibly whatever else he could have messed up.

Edit: addition
 
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