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Discussion Starter #2,281
I'm not on Google Drive. But go to this RR forum thread and scroll down to
"2005 USDM Subaru Outback 2.5i AT E2ZK002A 2F22054706".
Click on the E2ZK002A link to download the .bin file.
View attachment 486864

If that works, I'd appreciate learning what you're looking at and how you relate it to the issue.

Here's a sample of what I see in RR Editor for that ROM:
View attachment 486866
No where in that map does it allow for fueling to be 11:1. Something is up with SVig4 engine that is making the fuel trims eratic, and like seen in the log, go way rich.
 

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@SVig4

EGR valve from any place.

The shaft on the bottom of the intake is the manifold runner. It changes the air flow based on either low, or highway cruising rpms. I believe there's a bushing in there and not necessarily a "seal". I may be wrong.
I'll have to look it up.
 

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I haven't found a definite yet on the runner, aka TGV, as to how it seals.

Your intake is in 3 pieces. That center section with the TGV unbolts from the two runner sides. The flaps inside the center section control air flow to the cylinders. There's a flap on either side.
 

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No where in that map does it allow for fueling to be 11:1. Something is up with SVig4 engine that is making the fuel trims eratic, and like seen in the log, go way rich.
Which map is that? I'm seeing two for Primary Open Loop Fueling (A and B). Map A doesn't have anything below 12.46, but map B goes as low as 10.3.
 

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Discussion Starter #2,285
I haven't downloaded it yet. The computer with the RR and ECU Flash is at the shop. I just looked at your pic.

I still haven't found anything on how the TGV is assembled in that intake specifically as far as a seal/bushing. I don't think I have any cars with that intake. I'll check tomorrow. (I do have that 04 with the EJ259. It may have that type intake. I will be tearing down for HGs, but I'm still waiting on the last 2 parts of the whole job to show up. The cats. I don't want to tear in to it and still be waiting on cats when I put it back in. The HG repair is a day job for me.)

If air is getting out, air is getting in and that may be the eratic fueling. TGV one way it leaks, the other it doesn't. Given there's 2 valves, that would make for a large leak under the conditions creating the problem. They are linked. When the engine is running and vacuum is pulling on them and one or both is loose in the seal/bushing, that could be another factor in the fault.

The whole purpose of the TGV is to change how the air flows into the cylinder. And bank 1 is still acting up the worse.
 

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I noticed that smoke was coming out of the EGR valve first and I took it off to clean it in the parts washer. It leaks in the middle right where I am pointing the screwdriver.
When I did a detailed examination of the EGR valve (this thread), I noticed that the two I got from a pick-and-pull yard had rather loose fitting between the valve stem and the guide, which is where you're pointing. There's no seals there; just the stem going through the guide tube bored into the valve base.

The EGR valve is quite active (opening, closing, changing degree of open) while driving and I could see the stem or guide wearing.

If you install a new EGR, I'd be really interested to know if another smoke test comes up negative. Would suggest making it a replacement with high mileage to prevent leakage.
 

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On the map. That's what I would expect to see. Rich at high rpms and/or high load. SVig4 did not hit either or a combination.

I'm going to go over his log again tomorrow.

@SVig4 Look to see if TGV control solenoid or position is listed in your PID list, please, and add both banks in.

You can take out both AF Learning, APP, and Battery. We know they are working proper. This will keep the PIDs low for polling purposes.
 

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When I did a detailed examination of the EGR valve (this thread), I noticed that the two I got from a pick-and-pull yard had rather loose fitting between the valve stem and the guide, which is where you're pointing. There's no seals there; just the stem going through the guide tube bored into the valve base.

The EGR valve is quite active (opening, closing, changing degree of open) while driving and I could see the stem or guide wearing.

If you install a new EGR, I'd be really interested to know if another smoke test comes up negative. Would suggest making it a replacement with high mileage to prevent leakage.
Ordered a new OEM one on eBay; I am also assuming that the shaft of the valve got warn and that was the cause of the leaking. I will take another test once I get it on, should show up middle of next week. I'll keep you posted
 

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On the map. That's what I would expect to see. Rich at high rpms and/or high load. SVig4 did not hit either or a combination.
That period of 11.1 AFR was at high rpm (4k+) and high load (1.3 g/rev). Graph is just lines 1100 to 1400:
11.1 AFR.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #2,291
Okay. I missed the rpm and load when I looked at it. I had already seen the dips to rich and when I saw 11:1 it popped in my head that this ain't right.

We're still on the TGV operation check if it's possible. I'll look for a better breakdown of the intake also.
 

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@cardoc The only parameter I saw was Tumble Valve Position Sensor Right, so I selected it and went around for a drive. Nothing else looked close to signifying a TGV control solenoid but in case I just missed it here is a screenshot of those parameters. It's all in a new log posted below.

Parameters.jpg

@plain OM I got a chance to add the IAM (4-byte)* into the parameters and it worked this time, maybe it was just too many PIDs before. It's in the log below now.

Log 6/25
 

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Discussion Starter #2,293 (Edited)
@SVig4

There's only one position sensor for the "tumble valve" since both are connected by a rod.

"The tumble generator valves are controlled by the ECM according to the coolant temperature and the time elapsed after start of the engine. When the engine is started, the butterfly valves are moved to the closing ends.In this state, the intake air flows at very high speeds passing through narrowed passages in the directions determined by the individual intake air ports in the cylinder head. This creates tumbling air motions in the cylinders, which enables lean mixtures to be ignited and thus harmful exhaust emissions to be during engine start. The tumble generator valves are fully open when the engine is operating at an ordinary driving speed, allowing intake air to flow without being changed in direction and velocity."

On this type, the valve stays open after warm up. So the movement of the valve may not be an issue unless the bushings are allowing for movement of the flap(s) when they should remain stationary. What would determine the function of the valve is a cold start up while logging RPM, ECT and the sensor position voltage. This will give us 2 things. The closed and open voltage and when the ECM decides to open it in relation to the ECT. The only criteria I've found thus far is the voltage goes up with the increased angle of the valve. The sensor circuit sets a fault at <0.181V. The voltage change on the sensor in your log was only .02V, so it's either an anomaly or the flap is moving and affecting the sensor output. If it's moving, that means it's loose in it's pivot at the bushings, and we already know it's leaking at the bushings.

Leaks and carbon build up are a problem on the TGV on the turbo engine. It seems it's a problem on this one.

The actuator is electric on the bank 1 side of the throttle body. The sensor is on the bank 2 side of the throttle body.

I haven't found anything on "rebuilding" the TGV assembly on your intake. Apparently it's not rebuildable, it's replaceable. At what cost I couldn't tell you. Subaru isn't open yet.

(edit: took out text; part number reference in post below)
 

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@SVig4

There's only one position sensor for the "tumble valve" since both are connected by a rod.

"The tumble generator valves are controlled by the ECM according to the coolant temperature and the time elapsed after start of the engine. When the engine is started, the butterfly valves are moved to the closing ends.In this state, the intake air flows at very high speeds passing through narrowed passages in the directions determined by the individual intake air ports in the cylinder head. This creates tumbling air motions in the cylinders, which enables lean mixtures to be ignited and thus harmful exhaust emissions to be during engine start. The tumble generator valves are fully open when the engine is operating at an ordinary driving speed, allowing intake air to flow without being changed in direction and velocity."

On this type, the valve stays open after warm up. So the movement of the valve may not be an issue unless the bushings are allowing for movement of the flap(s) when they should remain stationary. What would determine the function of the valve is a cold start up while logging RPM, ECT and the sensor position voltage. This will give us 2 things. The closed and open voltage and when the ECM decides to open it in relation to the ECT. The only criteria I've found thus far is the voltage goes up with the increased angle of the valve. The sensor circuit sets a fault at <0.181V. The voltage change on the sensor in your log was only .02V, so it's either an anomaly or the flap is moving and affecting the sensor output. If it's moving, that means it's loose in it's pivot at the bushings, and we already know it's leaking at the bushings.

Leaks and carbon build up are a problem on the TGV on the turbo engine. It seems it's a problem on this one.

The actuator is electric on the bank 1 side of the throttle body. The sensor is on the bank 2 side of the throttle body.

I haven't found anything on "rebuilding" the TGV assembly on your intake. Apparently it's not rebuildable, it's replaceable. At what cost I couldn't tell you. Subaru isn't open yet. From OpposedForces it's item #4 for reference. The complete center section of the manifold.

That is interesting. Ill get a log of it on a cold start up today and then we can see its movement. Do you think that it would be beneficial to pulling it off the motor and trying to clean it assuming that the carbon build up might be similar to that of the throttle body?
 

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It may not move the flappers. I think it may only work at really cold temps less than 32F. We'll find out.

Carbon build up may be a factor, but I don't think you can fix that leak other than replacing the center section or finding another intake that doesn't leak.

If you want the investigate, you could take the manifolds apart and see what kind of seal can be fashioned or substitutes to close it off.
 

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@cardoc
Thanks for the TGV info. Interesting. Sort of (but not the same) as the idea of one intake valve having low or high lift in the 2006+; there, turbulance at the lower speeds is "generated" by the difference between the openings of the two valves.

For the past few hours I have not been able to open this thread (and just this thread) on Chrome or Edge. It seemed to correct a few minutes ago (I'm back on Chrome) but now I see that in post #2293, there's a link to the opposed forces site. For some time now, perhaps going back as far as the change in SubaruOutback website, I have not been able to insert links to opposed forces. I suspect it's because that's not a secure site. In your post, that link hasn't loaded
486946

Am I alone on this?
 

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@cardoc
Thanks for the TGV info. Interesting. Sort of (but not the same) as the idea of one intake valve having low or high lift in the 2006+; there, turbulance at the lower speeds is "generated" by the difference between the openings of the two valves.

For the past few hours I have not been able to open this thread (and just this thread) on Chrome or Edge. It seemed to correct a few minutes ago (I'm back on Chrome) but now I see that in post #2293, there's a link to the opposed forces site. For some time now, perhaps going back as far as the change in SubaruOutback website, I have not been able to insert links to opposed forces. I suspect it's because that's not a secure site. In your post, that link hasn't loaded
View attachment 486946
Am I alone on this?
Same, it's stuck loading. I can click on it and open the link in a new tab, Chrome does show a header saying that it is Not Secure.
 

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I was having issues posting that post. I've deleted the URL.

It's under intake and turbo charger on the B12 catalog and it shows it '04 build. The part number for the collector is 14015AA430.
 

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For the past few hours I have not been able to open this thread (and just this thread) on Chrome or Edge.
Happened again a moment ago. Here's what I see. The thread is grayed out, and there's that "Oops . . . banner. Doesn't happen with any other thread.

486960


However, this time, I clicked on the thread below the banner and it cleared.
Tried with Chrome, without logging in; same thing.
 
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