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@cardoc

I've narrowed down the issue I have with accessing the P0420 Diagnosis thread. It happens only on page 115; I've gone to numerous other pages in the thread with no problem. Even if I just get the browser to reload the page, it happens. I also tried another computer -- same thing.

When I've tried inserting an opposed forces link, I found that removing the link alone apparently left some remnants and that still caused problems posting. I had to backspace over all spaces until the previous text to clear it out. I wonder if it's the same now; that deleted URL in post #2293 might have left something.

Ah well, we're on a new page now and it seems to work fine. It's just page 115.
 

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It's doing it when I get on that page also. I deleted everything in that post dealing with OF, and it still does it. Maybe @AWDFTW (see page 115, post 2293 ) can figure it out.

All I have to do is click the page anywhere and the grey screen goes away and I can type in the reply window and post.
 

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@SVig4

We know the TGV operates and it's position is based on ECT, it moved to open at 120°F, and not the rear O2 data. The cats were already warmed up long before.

I was kinda expecting the TGV to operate like an air pump. An air pump runs a short amount of time, generally about 30 seconds, to force oxygen into the exhaust stream to heat up the cat quicker. This TGV system apparently heats up the cat and the engine at a faster rate than not having it using combustion temperature to accomplish the task.

We also know the TGV isn't being restricted in any manner. It moved to open and rather quickly.

Does not deter from the leak in any way, just confirms it's operating normally and the sensor works.

What would be nice is a comparison of data from another CARB 2.5 with this intake setup. Oohhh....The 04 Outback I have at the lot with the EJ259 has the same intake. I'll smoke it and log some data before I take it apart and see if it's leaking and compare engine data. I'm still awaiting catalytic converters for it. (The last 2 pieces before I start on it.)
 

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@SVig4

We know the TGV operates and it's position is based on ECT, it moved to open at 120°F, and not the rear O2 data. The cats were already warmed up long before.

I was kinda expecting the TGV to operate like an air pump. An air pump runs a short amount of time, generally about 30 seconds, to force oxygen into the exhaust stream to heat up the cat quicker. This TGV system apparently heats up the cat and the engine at a faster rate than not having it using combustion temperature to accomplish the task.

We also know the TGV isn't being restricted in any manner. It moved to open and rather quickly.

Does not deter from the leak in any way, just confirms it's operating normally and the sensor works.

What would be nice is a comparison of data from another CARB 2.5 with this intake setup. Oohhh....The 04 Outback I have at the lot with the EJ259 has the same intake. I'll smoke it and log some data before I take it apart and see if it's leaking and compare engine data. I'm still awaiting catalytic converters for it. (The last 2 pieces before I start on it.)
Yeah, after doing a little research it appears that the TGV is primarily for cutting down on emissions before the car is warmed up. I guess it stays closed while warming up to create a turbine effect and the engine runs leaner to burn less fuel. Then when the engine gets up to operating temperature the TGV opens and stays open.

I spent most of the day today and yesterday (not a mechanic so I am very slow) taking off the intake manifold. Some success was had.

IMG_20200628_143340.jpg IMG_20200628_112614.jpg IMG_20200628_112619.jpg

I got the intake manifold off and boy oh boy there is a lot of carbon build up so I decided to clean the intake manifold in the parts washer. But first I tried taking the TGV shafts out in order to get the seals out and take them in to be measured and order some new ones (my father knows a place that will be able to source some I guess). The TGV valve really is not serviceable so in order to get the shaft out I had to grind the peened end of the screws down just to get the bolts out of the shaft and was then able to remove the valves just to get the shafts out.

What I am planning is to hopefully get some new seals and reassemble the TGV without the flaps in, keeping the shafts and sensor so that there are no check engine lights. It appears quite a few people do this with the turbo engines to get more power. My main reason was that I wanted to get to the seals to replace them. As once apart I assumed if I put it back together and its still leaking I may just have to replace the intake manifold anyways.

I will be very curious to see what you find vacuum testing the same one, no worries on the waiting it appears I will have quite a few days before I even put the car back together. I'm going to be a little bummed if they all leak though.
 

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@SVig4
@plain OM

I hooked up my smoker to the '04 OUtback with the EJ259 with my cone adaptor at the intake tube where it connects to the filter top. This way all the smoke and air pressure goes in to the tube directly at the point after the MAF sensor and fills everything from there; intake, any chamber with valves open, brake booster.

No leaks anywhere and after the smoker built up some pressure my cone adaptor blew out of the tube.

This engine runs really good. The cats are bad and the head gaskets leak oil. It has 93k miles on it. Absent leaks at the TGV, I would say that the leak on SVig4's engine is a problem.
 

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This way all the smoke and air pressure goes in to the tube directly at the point after the MAF sensor and fills everything from there; intake, any chamber with valves open, brake booster.

No leaks anywhere . . .
Not even a small leak at the TGV shaft or the EGR valve?

How old is the EGR valve?

A side observation/question. Was the throttle plate held open during the test? I wonder what role the throttle plate (and/or IACV) would have on limiting flow from the upstream smoke generator into the intake manifold itself. Would it not be better to test for leaks after the throttle body by injecting the smoke downstream of the throttle, e.g., at the brake booster or PVC fitting, or, at least making sure the throttle plate is significantly open?

In any event, if there's no leakage out of the EGR valve, I'm all the more interested in the results @SVig4 gets from the smoke test after the replacement EGR valve is installed.
 

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The car is a 2004 model, spent most of it's life in Massachusetts and has 93,000 miles on it. Everything is original except for some of the exhaust parts were cut, the flanges, and welded in a piece of pipe to take the place of the flanges.

After I eat lunch I will go out there and hook it up with the booster hose and see if the results change. Doubtful since the machine pushes a good amount of air in and it would go past the throttle plate.
 

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The results are in.

Miniscule smoke from the EGR valve, none at the TGV rods and when the intake system filled up, it blew out my large rubber plug on the air tube by the filter cover.
 

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The results are in.

Miniscule smoke from the EGR valve, none at the TGV rods and when the intake system filled up, it blew out my large rubber plug on the air tube by the filter cover.
Thanks.
That's well sealed!
I guess for the EGR valve, it's not unusual for there to be some leakage, especially as they age. Of course, that leaves: how much is too much? Hopefully we'll see what a brand new valve shows as a comparison.
 

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@cardoc @plain OM

Changed the EGR valve out and it had the same amount of smoke coming out of it as the original one did, so I just put the original back in. The TGV valve rods actually had no more smoke coming out but I put some silicone on the seals before putting it all back together and that seems to be holding for the time being. So It appears the only leak is on the EGR valve now. I took a log after I got it put all back together in case your all curious to see, I left the TGV valves out considering that they weren't replaceable and left the shafts and sensors in so it should throw any codes.

Log 6.30.20
 

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Changed the EGR valve out and it had the same amount of smoke coming out
And that's a brand new valve? Subaru or aftermarket?

This is a bit of a tangent, but any chance you could video the smoking leak? Just wondering if @cardoc could then compare that to the test on the 2004 which resulted in "minuscule" leakage.

It also leads me to suggest a possible way to have a quantitative reference for leakage at the valve and thereby be able to better assess a valve's condition. I'm thinking of something like using vacuum at a cone fitting into the valve's intake manifold port. With the vacuum brought up to a particular level, the leakdown could then be measured in loss/time. This would be done with the exhaust port sealed, leaving only the valve guide and stem as a leakage source, and then with the exhaust side open, providing a reference for the valve seal effectiveness. (Maybe someone has already done this?)
 

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And that's a brand new valve? Subaru or aftermarket?

This is a bit of a tangent, but any chance you could video the smoking leak? Just wondering if @cardoc could then compare that to the test on the 2004 which resulted in "minuscule" leakage.

It also leads me to suggest a possible way to have a quantitative reference for leakage at the valve and thereby be able to better assess a valve's condition. I'm thinking of something like using vacuum at a cone fitting into the valve's intake manifold port. With the vacuum brought up to a particular level, the leakdown could then be measured in loss/time. This would be done with the exhaust port sealed, leaving only the valve guide and stem as a leakage source, and then with the exhaust side open, providing a reference for the valve seal effectiveness. (Maybe someone has already done this?)
This was an aftermarket EGR Valve, I ended up picking one up from O'Reilly's vs. getting OEM from the internet. The problem with trying to compare the amount of smoke leaking is there are too many factors. Amount of smoke and pressure in the system for one, there would be no correlation between the amount of smoke leaking compared to the other unless these two factors were the exact same.
 

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This was an aftermarket EGR Valve ...
I changed out EGR and gaskets with OEM a couple years back after a smoke test. The new one had a similar stream of smoke with the same test. Thinking it's by design also the test with the intake manifold intact would send smokey air the wrong way thru the valve.
 

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@cardoc travelled to Santa Fe - I changed the battery in Phoenix and the CEL never came back on afterwards, but I'm wondering if it might eventually?

I collected some data and rear O2 seems to read more consistently than before. All data from cruising 65-75 mph.
 

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I provided logs back on post no. 2181 (page 110). The consensus was that my front cat was bad, and that I should clean the MAP sensor and check for vacuum leaks. Since then, I've cleaned the MAP sensor and checked for vacuum leaks using the same type of smoke machine SVig4 made in post 2269 (page 114). I pumped in the smoke at the manifold fitting that goes to the brake booster, and I did not see any sign of leakage (including at the EGR, which makes me wonder about my smoke test based on recent posts). Below are links to new logs.
Link to highway drive: Google Sheets - create and edit spreadsheets online, for free.
Link to another highway drive, with street driving at the end: Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files
@cardoc or PlainOM, could you let me know if it looks like cleaning the MAP sensor changed anything? Do you recommend I go ahead and replace the front cat, or are there other steps I should take before doing that?
Thank you!
 

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I pumped in the smoke at the manifold fitting that goes to the brake booster, and I did not see any sign of leakage (including at the EGR, which makes me wonder about my smoke test based on recent posts).
Could be insufficient smoke, maybe also pump pressure to squeeze through the valve stem-to-guide space. Probably need to compare notes with @SVig4 and @kiwisix on these aspects.

Unless, perhaps, the smoke was escaping somewhere else, unseen. Was there any sense of pressure build up through the feel of the bicycle pump (if that's what you're using)?

On the more general question of the smoke test, the PCV valve is between the intake manifold and the crankcase. If it's stuck open to any degree, the smoke would find it's way into the crankcase, and then to the intake airbox via the valve cover vent hoses, and out the front air intake. There could be little pressure build up to test for smaller leaks.

Below are links to new logs.
The logs are behind the Google log-in, which wasn't the case in your earlier post. Was this intended?
 

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or PlainOM, could you let me know if it looks like cleaning the MAP sensor changed anything?
Oops, the links were supposed to be public. Here they are again:
I haven't compared these to the earlier log, but the rear O2 is still abnormally active. I don't think that has changed.

The MAP is still around 40 kPa at 660 rpm idle, as before. But during those idling periods (2nd log), there's periodic increases in the MAP, down to 36 kPa that are accompanied by corresponding changes in the throttle position. In a period of about 3 minutes of idling, the increases appear at 40 second intervals: was the AC running and cycling off and on at that time?

@cardoc is far better at spotting odd data, but I think the earlier conclusion that the cat is not working still stands.

Is there a new rear O2 sensor in there?

Does your scanner include A/F Correction #3, or something similar? (This is a fuel correction based on the rear O2 sensor voltage.)
 
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