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2009 Outback 3.0R Ltd RIP 2006 Baja Turbo
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Documentation would be their inspection report of what is leaking(motor oil seeping) and their price to repair it.
I have no experience with the owner or the shop you took it to. It wasn't that hard to figure it out
 

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2008 OB 2.5i 5mt
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Discussion Starter #22
Yeah I see your point, they can't tell me everything about the engine but they might be able to tell me something about the oil seep.

Maybe I'm just in a hyper-paranoid state of mind, but it did strike me as odd that you name-dropped the owner of the garage. It's not exactly a common name.
 

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2006 OutBean, 2005 LGTW
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1,165 Posts
@Keilyx is the invoice you posted earlier your paid invoice or their estimate?

So I did a little bit more digging...

The Subaru parts kit #10105AB140 contents include...
478865


I marked in RED the part numbers that you were charged for, that were included in the kit above...

478866


The head gaskets invoiced separately from the Subaru kit are the turbo MLS OEM gaskets. It will be easy for you to personally verify that you have an MLS gasket installed, or if they used the ej253 stock gasket. You'll be able to see the gasket looking through the runners on the intake manifold. If you can post a picture of the gasket we can help you confirm.

The exhaust manifold gasket is not included with the kit but the intake manifold gasket is. The intake manifold gasket listed separately is the runner to TGV(?) gasket, which, rarely does anyone ever separate when pulling an intake off. I find this charge highly suspect.

Another thing I noticed about your above invoice is that they state the technician replaced the PS pump O-ring but that they also replaced the entire PS pump? Then replaced it all again? I guess I don't really understand what happened there...
 

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2006 OutBean, 2005 LGTW
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Yeah I see your point, they can't tell me everything about the engine but they might be able to tell me something about the oil seep.

Maybe I'm just in a hyper-paranoid state of mind, but it did strike me as odd that you name-dropped the owner of the garage. It's not exactly a common name.
I googled the shop name as well after I saw it on the bottom of the invoice. Kia is very active on Yelp as it turns out.
 

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2008 OB 2.5i 5mt
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Discussion Starter #25
LOL well i feel dumb. I thought I'd cropped the garage name out of the photo, but didn't notice it in the fine print. I do see that Kia responded quite openly to their few bad reviews on Yelp. Usually I feel like when business has mostly 5-star reviews and only a handful one 1-stars, that can be assumed to anomalous bad experiences and folks with unreasonable expectations. I don't want to be that kind of person. I brought them a 12 year old subaru with an oil soaked timing belt and a cracked shortblock that was covered in caulk and paint. I fully expected to pay out the nose to have it fixed. I didn't expect to be deceived.

Thanks so much @aesthetic.rake for doing this research. I enjoy reading your rebuild threads as they are very educational. Very pleased that you've lent your support to my process here. I just grabbed a photo of what I believe to be the headgaskets. I'll post that picture in a minute (easier to do from my phone).

I think I already mentioned this, but the story with the PS pump was that they (supposedly) replaced it with a remanufactured one but I brought it back to them because it was leaking as much, if not more than before, so they replaced it with a new one. Would the "part number" be the same for a reman as for a brand new OEM? They charged me about 350 for the reman and an additional 85 when they swapped it out with the new one.
 

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2008 OB 2.5i 5mt
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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
This is the HG, no??
478868


Also I figured I’d post all my invoices here, in the order that work was performed. First one is issues they found before discovering the cracked shortblock. Second is the shortblock. Third is because I had a p0028 and a mysterious coolant leak that appeared to resolve on its own after they gave me the car back. Fourth is the new PS pump. They are all paid invoices, they never gave me formal invoices for the estimates.
478886

478894


478876

478878
 

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2005 OBXT Limited, VF37, STI intake, 5MT
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1,404 Posts
Not to add fuel to the fire, but it looks like they were double-dipping all over the place.

The gasket set from Subaru (the $420 kit) includes ALL the various seals you'd need for a shortblock replacement PLUS extras if the tech is experienced (such as fuel injector seals, throttle body gasket, etc). So where are all the parts they DIDN'T use? You bought those, you are entitled to them if not installed on the engine.

From looking at the first diag (PS pump inlet o-ring) and the fact they ordered turbo gaskets in addition to the included head gaskets, says they knew what they were working on rather than just going by-the-book.

They also double-dipped on the timing belt/component install and oil pump. The labor for a shortblock replacement includes removal and installation of the timing components and oil pump. They tagged an extra $720 for installation of parts that were coming off/going on anyway. They didn't cut you any deals on the shortblock labor either ($1940 is book time and ALL included operations).

Why did they also go back in afterwards for an oil pressure sensor? Was this shortly after the work and/or during warranty work? Because that was also necessary to transfer during the shortblock replacement. Same question for the coolant temp sensor. That so rarely goes back, I'm suspecting damage from removal/install and they shunted the bill to you.

Need more answers. And $7k is disgusting for a shortblock replacement. A brand new long-block is less than $5k from Subaru....
 

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2006 OutBean, 2005 LGTW
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I've never worked with an OEM EJ255/7 gasket so I can't answer definitively if that is one.

@RoughDiamond @cardoc

The MLS gaskets I'm familiar with (sixstar & felpro) have 3 layers and are held together with rivets making them obvious.

Also, you might want to edit out your phone number on one of the above photos, jic.
 

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2008 OB 2.5i 5mt
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67 Posts
Discussion Starter #29
Thanks @aesthetic.rake I hadn't noticed the phone number on there. I will say that the HG appeared to me to be multi-layer, although that might be hard to see in the photo.

@RoughDiamond You gotta pour the gas if there's more in the can! You're probably right about most of your assessment but I wonder if some of it is slightly exaggerated. The $7,000 total is not strictly for the shortblock replacement (and I was under the impression that it's difficult/impossible to get a brand new longblock). Like I said, the first invoice on there is for work that was done before they even figured out the shortblock was cracked. They did show me the gasket they pulled out from my oil pump and it was torn to shreds. They told me it was probably a cheap part from autozone or something and was not made of metal (they actually used the word cardboard, although I think that was kind of just colorful language). I believe they were hoping that they would have fixed the oil leak by replacing the seal on the oil pump, and they had to replace the timing belt since it was soaked in oil. I do see that there are two separate charges for "timing belt idler", is that weird? For all I know (obv not enough) the timing belt requires two separate idlers.

At any rate, after they put everything back together and the motor was still leaking, my understanding is that they were actually able to trace down the source of the remaining leak, and after sanding away the paint and caulk they finally discovered the crack. You can see a photo of the cracked block on my initial thread:


That's when they convinced me to go whole hog on the new shortblock. So technically they did remove and install the timing components/oil pump twice. Once on the damaged shortblock, and once on the new one. While it appears they may have overcharged me pretty consistently throughout this process, I knew I was about $2000 deep by the time I OKed the new shortblock, and if you separate that out it is actually closer to $5000. It's presented in kind of a confusing way because the labor happened in two distinct chunks, appears on two separate sheets of paper, but the total cost for both is the $7000 total you see on the first two invoices.

The oil switch was replaced because I had a p0026 come up a couple of days after they gave me the car back. This was over the holidays so they didn't do that work for a couple of weeks, but they did not consider that to be warranty service. I'm not sure what you mean about the coolant temp sensor. I actually had that in my mind as the thermostat but now I'm realizing those are probably actually different things.
 

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Now I see a pattern with these guys and IMO they've have deliberately fleeced you. Once is a mistake. Twice--on two separate occasions-- makes it a pattern.

You've been invoiced here for a total of 5 idlers (yes, I'm counting the tensioner as an idler in this case.)
The 1307AA230 doesn't go to the sohc EJ253 that you have. That idler is specific to the DOHC EJ255/7 Turbo engine.
I couldn't figure out how they got to the $151 1307AA142 since that idler only sells for about half that, then I noticed that there were two of the same idler. Now, if they installed that idler in place of the "correct" one, that's actually an upgrade but they did not install the 1307aa230 since there's nowhere to install it--nor does it go to that engine.
 

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2005 Legacy Wagon Limited 4EAT
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I've never worked with an OEM EJ255/7 gasket so I can't answer definitively if that is one.

@RoughDiamond @cardoc

The MLS gaskets I'm familiar with (sixstar & felpro) have 3 layers and are held together with rivets making them obvious.

Also, you might want to edit out your phone number on one of the above photos, jic.
The rivet on my felpro mls gaskets are closest to the front, otherwise it looks the same as OP’s.
478926
 

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2008 OB 2.5i 5mt
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Discussion Starter #32
Car is currently on the lift at the dealer getting inspected. They think the leak is coming from under the timing cover. They took me back to look at it and it did appear that was it’s origin. Looks like it’s coming from the corner of the cover, far passenger side right at the bottom. Currently trying to decide whether to get them to remove the cover for a closer inspection. I’m thinking I’ll have them do it but I’m taking a minute to consider. Also asked them to read the serial number off the shortblock assuming there should be records of it being warehoused and/or sold that could confirm it is in fact new. The tech I talked to was skeptical they would have access to that information, but it seems to me SOA should have some sort of record like that. If anyone happens to see this and I want to offer on the spot advice then go for it! Looks like I may be hanging out here this afternoon.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Turned out to be the cam seal that was leaking. I’m having the dealer replace it since they’re in there. I asked them to give me the seal that they pull out so I can take a look at it myself, you know since I paid for two of them a month ago lol...

hopefully that resolves the leak. I’m getting as much documentation as I can from the dealer. They said the only thing they could imagine is that the seal might have been damaged when the garage did their work.
 

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2006 Subaru Outback 2.5XT
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I hope you get this all resolved, document everything, and take those scum bags to small claims court. I think you have a solid case against them, they really hosed you.
 

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Outback 2011 3.6R Premium
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A camshaft seal leak is not uncommon BUT it should not fail within 2 months.

Thankfully it is a quick, cheap and easy fix (should be around an hours labour and a few dollars for the seal). It should be a warranty fix from the company that did the engine rebuild.

A common cause for camshaft seal leaks is that the new seal is contacting the camshaft at the exact point that the old seal was (and this contact point is slightly worn). Typically when fitting a new seal, you try and fit it a little shallower or deeper than the previous seal so a new contact point is used.

Seagrass
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Just following up here to post a pic of the cam seal that was removed by the dealer. It’s clearly damaged but I’m wondering how much of that might have happened upon removal. Trying to follow up with the dealer to get more info on how they removed it, if it was difficult, etc. They want to know if they provided “excellent” service so hopefully they’ll tell me what I want to know, including what “shop supplies” they charged an extra $15 for. I’ve had it with all these people...
479094
 

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Discussion Starter #37
@seagrass they actually charged $60 for diagnosis (pretty sure that was no more than 10 minutes of flashlight waving once the car was on the lift) and then two hours of labor, which did seem a little like BS to me. Also, with regards to the seal fit, new short block means new camshaft, which would rule out a worn contact point, no?
 

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@seagrass they actually charged $60 for diagnosis (pretty sure that was no more than 10 minutes of flashlight waving once the car was on the lift) and then two hours of labor, which did seem a little like BS to me. Also, with regards to the seal fit, new short block means new camshaft, which would rule out a worn contact point, no?
There is a LOT of damage done to that seal BUT I suspect the damage was done when it was removed (they sustain damage on removal).

A short block does not include heads or the camshafts (which is one of the many components that are installed in each “head” of a Subaru.

As a “backyard” mechanic I could replace that seal in less than two hours so I fail to see why a workshop charged two hours labour.

I recently removed the engine from my daughters 2007 Legacy, replaced the clutch and flywheel AND a camshaft seal. I also replaced brake caliper pin rubbers and did a full brake fluid flush and still had the car out on a test drive in less than eight hours. All this was done without a car lift in a normal home garage. I did have the necessary tools though as I have done this before.

Seagrass
 

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Discussion Starter #39
@seagrass Thanks for the info! I guess I was confused. Still have so much to learn and really appreciate that people here are friendly and willing to correct my assumptions. Did some more research and understand better the role of cams in opening/closing valves. Makes sense that they are part of the heads, and why the leak was where it was.

The dealer sent me their automated follow up email asking if they provided excellent service, so I asked more about the seal but didn’t really get a clear answer. I do think most/all the damage was from removal, so maybe it was the contact point. I had hoped they would provide me some insight but I guess they’re not too interested in that. Just hoping I don’t have the same problem again. I gave them a bit of a hard time about the overall price and they said “industry standard is 2.7 hours of labor, we billed you 2.5 so it was actually cheaper!” Thanks I guess? Lol...They also said the $15 shop supplies fee is actually just a 5% surcharge on labor for “towels and cleaning supplies”. That’s a lot of towels!
 
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