Subaru Outback Forums banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I pulled the motor from my ‘02 OBW to replace the HGs and clutch. I Installed a new Sachs clutch kit (pressure plate, friction plate, pilot bearing and release bearing). had flywheel resurfaced. Clutch install want smoothly, apart from the frustrating process of getting the motor back onto the transmission. I went to it the car in gear prior to torquing down the crank pulley, and the clutch pedal went to the floor and stayed there. I didn’t touch the hydraulics or release cylinder during the clutch install, but it feels like there’s no fluid in the system (I checked the reservoir and it‘s full to the max level with decent clear fluid). I did pull the release lever and degreased the ball pivot, but then reinstalled it. It seemed to move the release bearing normally, so I didn‘t think there was any more to it than that. Even with the car in gear, I can manually turn the crank pulley, suggesting that the clutch isn’t engaging. Any ideas? Otherwise, I’m contemplating having to pull the motor again to see what’s going on 🤯
 

·
Registered
'01 OBW 2.5/AT; '99 BMW 528i/5-spd
Joined
·
128 Posts
Sounds like a pressure plate issue. Do Sachs PPs come with that star-shaped lock that you remove on installation? Are these 'self-adjusting" PPs? On another make, I've heard of folks getting new LuK or Sachs self-adjusting kits that were actually returns and thus missing the star lock, requiring that the PP be reset either with a special expensive tool or redneck ingenuity.

Although I think the symptoms would be reversed, could you have installed the friction plate backwards?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply. I don't think Sachs PPs come with any sort of locking device. This is the second Sachs clutch I have installed (The first was on a Triumph TR6) and it looks no different than that earlier one or the clutch I just replaced on the Outback. The friction plate has a clearly-marked "gearbox side" which faced me as I installed the clutch onto the back of the motor. Assuming that the hydraulics are OK (will bleed the system, but I didn't touch the hydraulics during this whole process, so no reason to believe that they're compromised, short of some coincidental and catastrophic failure, but the reservoir is full), the fact that the pedal went to the floor suggests that the release lever wasn't pressing on anything. The new release bearing was in place, and clipped on, so there's no reason why is shouldn't be hitting the PP fingers. Even if I had forgotten the release bearing, the clutch default condition should be engaged, so once I put the car in gear, that should lock up the motor, but it spins free even in gear, suggesting that the PP isn't pressing on the friction plate (it was when I assembled the clutch onto the flywheel).
The only other thing I can think of (and it's a stretch) is that all the joggling around to get the motor onto the tranny somehow disrupted the linkages between the gear lever and the tranny itself, so, although I think I'm putting it into gear, the tranny is still in neutral, which would explain my ability tho spin the motor while "in gear", but doesn't explain the odd clutch behavior. I'm mystified.
 

·
Registered
Outbacks, SVXs, XT6, 4Runner, Celica, Brat, E150s
Joined
·
479 Posts
Sounds like the lever isn't seated correctly. Like maybe popped off the pivot ball and slipped down into the bellhousing enough that the slave cylinder isn't engaging it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Worth checking - although the "dimple" on the top of the lever that engages the slave cylinder piston is lined up perfectly. That being said, the lever itself is very loose and rattles around a bit. I don't know if this was always the case before I embarked in this job. Tonight I'll get someone to press the clutch and observe how the slave cylinder piston engages with the lever
 

·
Registered
'01 OBW 2.5/AT; '99 BMW 528i/5-spd
Joined
·
128 Posts
I was going to ask about the clutch fork, wondering if perhaps the opposite end isn't resting flush on its pivot. I'm no help as I'm not clued in on Subaru clutch work, but also wondered if the trans input shaft has enough foward/backward play that when you re-installed the engine, its tip might not have lined up and fit square into the pilot bearing and is somehow not engaging the friction plate splines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
So, when I was in the throes of trying to get the motor back onto the tranny (a week-long bloodbath best forgotten...!), at one point, I "dry-fitted" the motor, just to reassure myself that it did indeed fit and that the problem was in aligning the splines, the input shaft and the pilot bearing. I removed the PP and friction plate and fitted the motor with the flywheel alone. I also placed a strip of masking tape across the pilot bearing as a telltale to confirm that the input shaft went in. Motor fitting went pretty smoothly, and when I pulled the motor, the input shaft had "cookie-cuttered" a perfectly circular hole in the tape, telling me (1) that the input shift was getting into the hole, and (2) that the alignment of the shaft with the pilot bearing was critical, as the fit was extraordinarily snug.
Once I pull the motor again (sigh....😟), I'll do some measuring to ensure that the input shaft splines are engaging those of the friction plate
 

·
Registered
Outbacks, SVXs, XT6, 4Runner, Celica, Brat, E150s
Joined
·
479 Posts
I'm thinking this is all connected. Were you able to slide the throwout bearing onto the snout around the input shaft?

I have a theory. Your previous clutch kit maybe had a repair sleeve around that snout, and your new throwout bearing does not fit around it. This would explain the resistance putting the engine back in, as you were compressing the pressure plate as you tightened the engine back up. That would release the clutch, with no resistance on the slave cylinder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Throwout bearing installed fine and moved back&forth on the snout without issue, but I think the answer (when I finally steel myself to pulling the motor again) will lie somewhere in the lever/bearing. Except for the work involved, I'm looking forward to solving this puzzle - the more you know, etc etc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
A followup: I pulled the motor, and the release bearing and lever looked fine. I cycled through the clutch, and apart from the clutch pedal bottoming out because there was no resistance against the release bearing, everything moved as it should. I regreased everything anyway
473783

However, when I compared the old and new pressure plates, I noticed that the fingers on the replacement plate were recessed by ~1 cm with respect to the pressure plate body, compared with the fingers on the new plate: Here's the old PP - the fingers are flush with the rim of the PP body:
473787


and here's the replacement PP - the fingers are ~1 cm recessed below the PP body rim:
473788

Since the total movement of the release bearing is only ~1 cm, it's possible that the bearing is at the end of its travel before it even engages the fingers of the new PP, which would explain why the clutch pedal was bottoming out when the motor was mounted. It doesn't explain why the clutch appeared to be disengaged (ie, even when the car was in gear, I could still spin the motor with a wrench in the crank pulley). As it is currently mounted on the motor, the replacement PP is gripping the friction plate. My concern is that, with the fingers as compressed as they are, is there even enough travel in them to release the friction plate, assuming even that the release bearing has enough travel to engage these recessed fingers?
I may have the wrong clutch for the Subaru, although I ordered the appropriate kit from the Rock Auto site. However, the return period is expired, so I guess this clutch is mine, regardless :(
 

·
Registered
Outback 2011 3.6R Premium
Joined
·
790 Posts
I suggest it is probably the wrong clutch kit, as you have mentioned

Seagrass
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Further update - I checked the numbers on the order and on the box, and everything matches. I also loosened the new PP, and the fingers lifted up. The difference I was seeing was the difference between a "relaxed" uninstalled PP and the installed PP "under tension" against the friction plate. So, I'm back where I started, with no choice but to reinstall the motor and see what happens
 

·
Registered
2010 2.5 CVT Premium
Joined
·
832 Posts
Not being familiar at all with this specific set up, I can only offer general input.
  • Did you compare all the new parts to the old parts? T/O bearing, clutch plate, etc?
  • Is it possible if the clutch plate is installed backwards, the transmission input shaft splines will not reach? Some plates are not symmetric front/back. The splines may be offset towards one side of the plate.
 

·
Registered
2002 OUTBACK LTD, AUTO, STOCK, SLAP HAPPY 2.5 SOHC.
Joined
·
6 Posts
make sure the clutch disc is in the right way. it can be put in incorrectly. there should be and "engine" or "front" stamped on it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Thanks Folks - yes the friction plate is clearly marked “gearbox side”, which faces outward when installed on the rear of the motor. The new parts look identical to the old parts, except the friction plate is thicker obv. There’s no reason why this shouldn’t work - check everything once again, reinstall the motor & bleed the clutch
 

·
Registered
Outbacks, SVXs, XT6, 4Runner, Celica, Brat, E150s
Joined
·
479 Posts
From your other post about having trouble getting the engine in:
rattled that mofo until it just “went” - quickly got some nuts onto the studs and locked them down.
Ultimately, this is your problem. When you had to force the engine and transmission together, it released the clutch. If this happens again, STOP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,227 Posts
Not being familiar at all with this specific set up, I can only offer general input.
  • Did you compare all the new parts to the old parts? T/O bearing, clutch plate, etc?
  • Is it possible if the clutch plate is installed backwards, the transmission input shaft splines will not reach? Some plates are not symmetric front/back. The splines may be offset towards one side of the plate.
I've also run into one motor (older subaru than that one though) where the replacement pilot bushing was different than the original, and the transmission never fully seated. So comparing parts is a great idea.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I just don't know what I'm missing. I checked everything. The replacement clutch parts look identical in shape and size to the old parts, and the part# on the box matches that of the appropriate clutch kit on the Rock Auto site. The friction plate is installed in the correct orientation. When the pressure plate is installed and torqued, it grips the pressure plate. The release bearing is installed and moves smoothly on the snout. I installed the motor again - the installation went smoothly with minimal wiggling to get it to mate snugly with the bell housing (practice makes perfect, obv). BUT - something's not right. Here are the symptoms:
1 - when I push the clutch, there is NO resistance until right at the end of travel (ie, pedal is on the floor), the slave cylinder piston is up against the release fork, which appears to be at the end of its travel, so I guess the fork/release bearing has reached the pressure plate fingers, but that's all.
2 - With the clutch "engaged" - pedal pulled back up, release fork slack (ie, release bearing isn't contacting pressure plate), car in gear, I can still spin the motor with a wrench on the crank pulley - I can see the flywheel spinning through the access panel. Either the clutch isn't actually engaged, or the car isn't actually in gear. I visually inspected the gear linkage while someone operated the shift lever - everything looks fine (ie nothing obviously dangling loose) - the shift action itself feels normal

Symptom 1 suggests that the release bearing has to travel too far to contact the pressure plate, and that the clutch pedal runs out of travel before it can actually actuate the pressure plate - ie, the clutch would be permanently engaged
Symptom 2 suggests that the clutch is actually permanently unengaged, although as I said earlier, the pressure plate clamped the friction plate fine before the motor was engaged.

None of this makes sense. All I can think of is to simply buy another clutch kit - maybe from another manufacturer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
From your other post about having trouble getting the engine in:


Ultimately, this is your problem. When you had to force the engine and transmission together, it released the clutch. If this happens again, STOP.
No - my description was likely misleading - there was a lot of wiggling to get the motor and the tranny lined up (getting the snout aligned with the pilot bearing, I imagine) and getting the tranny upward angle and the motor downward angle lined up, but at some point, everything lined up and the motor slid on. I didn't have to force it on, and I certainly didn't tighten any fasteners to pull it on - once the motor was sat on the bell housing, the first thing I did was screw in a couple of fasteners to keep it in place (remember the motor was dangling on a hoist - the last thing I wanted was for it to swing off the bell housing again when my back was turned
 

·
Registered
Outback 2011 3.6R Premium
Joined
·
790 Posts
I really sympathise with you for all the trouble you are having. I replaced the clutch in my daughters 2007 Legacy yesterday and with the help of my son in law the job was done in just over 4 hours. We went on to flush the brake and clutch fluids, rotate the tyres, replace front brake caliper pin rubbers and a power steering hose and we still finished in under 6 hours.

Getting back to your problem, if the clutch release fork and bearing are not in contact with the pressure plate then there is a problem somewhere, maybe the clutch fork is bent?

In Australia there are different non OEM clutch kits available depending on whether your vehicle originally had a solid mass flywheel or a dual mass flywheel. I am aware that there are different release forks for each type so maybe this could be another cause of your problem (wrong kit chosen).

If you have not owned the vehicle since new, could a previous owner have replaced the clutch and flywheel resulting in you ordering the clutch kit that should be correct but is not due to the change by the previous owner? My daughters Legacy had had this done and luckily I had purchased a complete flywheel and clutch kit or I would not have been able to complete the job due to a mismatched flywheel and clutch kit.

Seagrass
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top