[DerekH]

I've got a 2010 Outback Sport, 4 cylinder, 6spd manual.

As I'm sure most of you know, the hitch limit is 200lbs and the tow limit is 2700lbs (yes, the H6 is good for 3000lbs here and 4000lbs in Europe, please don't start another debate!).

I'm planning to use electric brakes and the new Torklift Stealth Ecohitch:
Torklift Central Stealth 2" Subaru Outback Trailer Hitch No Drill | Torklift Central

Here's the info on the Jayco 1207:
Floorplans - Jay Series Camping Trailers - Jayco

Unloaded Vehicle Weight (lbs) 1,965
Dry Hitch Weight (lbs) 170
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (lbs) 2,950
Cargo Carrying Capacity (lbs) 985

I know the weight is pushing it, but I don't expect any transmission (with the manual) or chassis issues... it's just the lack of power and potential over-heating. I'll probably pick up an UltraGauge as well.

If it's not happy with high temperatures or hills, I'll take it easy and get a new tow vehicle in a couple of years... but right now I'd like to start camping!

I'll probably buy a new trailer, so I'd like to get the 1207 so it'll last our family.

What do you think? What's your experience with towing a 2000lb pop-up? Anyone towing with the 4 cylinder & MANUAL transmission?

I know some people will suggest a bigger tow vehicle (which will probably get similar mileage with the trailer on), but it'll definitely be driven more without the trailer, so I'd like to remain more economical if I can... but if the H4 seems to struggle, I'll get something else in a couple years.

 

[hiker74]

I have been looking at popups as well. There are some threads on this. What I have been told is that you would be fine on flat ground going 60 mph and under, but if you want to go through some hills that 2000 lbs amplifies quickly as you start climbing or decending. I am still searching, but I have settled on looking at the following to tow with our 2013 2.5i Outback with a CVT: LivinLite Quicksilver 8.1 or 10.0 [The 8.1 is 865 lbs dry and has a Queen bed on one end, twin on the other with a full size bed convert dinette, The 10.0 has 2 Queens and a full dinette bed and is under 1200 lbs], Starflyer 10.0 which has a Queen and a Full and small Dinette bed at under 1100 lbs (really basic), and now I am looking at a used Fleetwood/Coleman Cobalt which is part of their Element/Epic series at a little less than 1300 lbs. It has a Queen on one size and a twin on the other with a small convert dinette. We have two small children so basically anything would work. Also I have heard (and you may google it) the tongue weight is a big deal as Outback tow in the European fashion, i.e. light on the tongue. I have been searching 165 lbs and lighter tongues given that you will also have a propane tank on there. Happy hunting

 

[myethreesuns]

I have a 2012 2.5 with the 6 speed, and also have a 2005 Honda Odyssey. Our popup is about 1600 dry and 2400 max, and I honestly can say that I would not attempt to tow our popup with the 2.5 Subaru. The dry weight of the camper is completly empty, and once you start loading gear I think you would be over the capacity. Again, you situation might be different.

 

[DerekH]

I've been reading the other threads... yeah, the Quicksilver trailers look awesome, but with 2 kids we'd like something a bit bigger. I might've considered their XLP if the tongue weight wasn't 250lbs dry. That chassis should last decades (WAY longer than the canvas).

I've seen some subaru's towing teardrops online (check the forester & various trailer forums) that are around 2000 lbs... plus they've got more drag and get pushed around by the wind. Personally I wouldn't want to do that, but think the pop-up could work.

If I buy a new trailer, I'll probably keep it longer than our Outback...

 

[nhlakes]

I just recently sold my 2010 Quicksilver 10.0 tent trailer that I towed with my 2011 2.5 Outback and it did quite well.

Personally, I would not tow a camper with a dry weight that was close to 2klbs with the Outback.

 

[subiesailor]

I've been reading the other threads... yeah, the Quicksilver trailers look awesome, but with 2 kids we'd like something a bit bigger. I might've considered their XLP if the tongue weight wasn't 250lbs dry. That chassis should last decades (WAY longer than the canvas).

I've seen some subaru's towing teardrops online (check the forester & various trailer forums) that are around 2000 lbs... plus they've got more drag and get pushed around by the wind. Personally I wouldn't want to do that, but think the pop-up could work.

If I buy a new trailer, I'll probably keep it longer than our Outback...

1900lbs empty is too much - your not even at your passenger weight - all the other packed stuff - kids bikes - diapers - water - food - etc.

I towed my 21ft 8.5ft wide racing sailboat lots with many different vehicles over the years from our 2001 Legacy GT 2.5 5spd MT - to our 93 Land Cruiser - multiple friends cars - and the 2010 Limited 2.5 with CVT. Empty with a set of sails - basic Coast Guard gear flairs - horn - 2hp 28lb honda outboard and lifejackets the boat weighed 1350lbs the trailer was another 450lbs. So just shy of 1800lbs I towed it with the 2.5 cvt a fair amount. #1 The cooling capacity has always been the final stopping point with the 2.5 not power the 2010 and newer models are far better than the older generation subarus regarding cooling capacity however - you will 100% run out of cooling ability long before you run short on power even with the 2.5.

Running solo no kids - no extra gear just the boat in tow - the 2.5 ranged from 16mpg with a head wind at 60-65mph - to 21mpg with no head wind at 60-65mph flat towing!

Do not plan on doing any sort of long climbing 5+ miles etc in outside temps exceeding 85 degrees with 1900+lbs behind the car. That gets progressively less regarding climbing as the temps get higher even mild rolling hills in 100 degree weather with you pushing 1900+ could find your self at the end of the cooling capacity depending on head winds and your windage etc.

Which is why when I sold the boat which I and the wife raced together since 1998 - my camping rig plans were 1200lbs or less for the camping trailer paired with the Subaru.

If your planning on using the RV lots and over a wide range of seasons and having it for a very long time - I would avoid all the RV "Junk" with plywood floors and press board interiors. The Livinglite 13footer is a fantastic rig! That would be at the top of my list if I were doing off season camping and wanted a hard sided rig with standing head room and bunks for the kids.

If it were just the wife and I a Campinn Tear drop would be hands down my first choice granted no standing head room or kitchen inside etc.

So for now the family RV is a 4x6 utility/tent trailer which is just a tent - with two queen sized beds and empty weight is 890lbs. We put boats or other stuff on the top of the trailer which has a hard top built to haul a ATV - we don't have a ATV. Just a couple of small sailboats. The 2.5 with CVT does about 25-26mpg at 65mph on the flats and gets down into the 21mpg in the hills towing that set up. We can also go ANYWHERE with that trailer given even fully loaded to the max the 2.5 will be capable of hauling over the Rockies in the Summer months etc.

Only reason I would want hard sided RV is for off season camping which case if the Wife and I get into that after the kids are gone - then maybe we get a pickup with a nice hard sided cabover camper and perhaps tow a boat of some type we can do some mini cruising on like San Juan Islands etc.

I think you can get a basic 13ft bunk bed + queen livinglite in the 1500lbs empty range if you keep the fancy options limited and don't fill the water tank. Which is far far better than 1900lbs before you even get started with the kids crap and the wifes pile of must take stuff.

 

[subiesailor]

SubaruOutback.org Member Galleries - subiesailor Gallery

The current rigs - The boat was sold to a friend with the deal that when he is done he sells it back. One of those keep it in the family types of things. Boat was built by one of the most respected Boat builders on the West coast - Ron Moore in the shed in Watsonville CA. Fantastic racing boat and good family cruiser bunks for 4 in a pinch.

As our kids get older I'm going to add a cot bunkbed to our camping kit so the queen sized bed area will then contain two stacked beds and a space for the kids or if a grand parent is tagging along stick the kids on the main floor in the bunk beds and give Grandma her own private queen with privacy curtain. Only time we are in the trailer is when we are changing clothes or sleeping so no need for piles of space.

Even if it were just the wife and I - this trailer would be a tad bit too much regarding space. We have very good friends with a 34foot pusher RV they purchased NEW - cost twice what their actual house is worth. They spend 6 months out of the year living on it traveling - they just did a 4 week trip in Mexico this summer. The wife and I have stayed in their spare bedroom once - its a bit over the top I could never see us even having a 23foot hard sided RV LOL. 13-16ft hard sided RV possibly or cab over camper on a pickup so we can bring a boat etc.

 

[subiesailor]

Check out the 13ft with bunk bed set up. Perfect all season RV for the small family wanting to keep their tow vehicles under control regarding whats needed for the rest of the year when your not camping.
CampLite All Aluminum Travel Trailer Overview by LivinLite

The hard sided trailer with the tip out also is a cool feature. I saw the first version of this about a year ago in a camp ground. The trailer was a VRV - or utility trailer for hauling an ATV or motorcycle fully enclosed - with some basic cabinets at the front end - and two tip out beds on the side. They had set up a table in the center and had a huge screen door that pulled down across the open back end of the trailer. The two tip out beds were queen sized. One of the coolest trailer ideas I've seen!

When they packed up and left the camp ground they simply rolled their kids toys and bikes right into the utility box trailer lashed them down - tipped the beds up and left! LOL there were several of us in the campground all thinking we were for sure doing something way wrong after seeing that set up. They were towing it with a Rav4 v6 I think the trailer was 13foot box maybe 16ft end to end.

 

[DerekH]

Hmmm... I was hoping for more reassurance than naysayers. ;D

People throw these things behind mini-vans. Sure some of them have a V6 with a bit more power, but they're often just a 4spd automatic with front wheel drive! I've never done it though, so thanks for your real-world experience.

BC Provincial Parks don't have hydro hookup, so I don't really want a hard-walled trailer (with little windows) that just heats up all day. It would have more drag in-tow and there's also the potential to pack much more stuff! (I grew up with a 21' hardwall trailer, it was a Gypsy Queen with some aluminum framework). Even if I could use a/c at the parks, that just seems wrong. Those Camplites look nice, but they're pricy and rather big as well.

Almost every truck on the market is ready for a redesign... hopefully they'll be a bit more fuel-efficient in a few years. Right now the midsize trucks aren't any better than the full size ones (and they don't have as much power or space). I'm hoping for a better midsize option, but if that doesn't materialize, maybe I'll just go for the next F150 with an aluminum body and a V8. Longer trips over the mountains would be a breeze.

 

[txmatt]

Depending on what you're using propane for, you can use a 5# propane cylinder on the tongue instead of a 20#. Heat and/or propane fridge would probably require a 20#, but 5# will get you lots of cooking on a stove. Every little bit helps with lightening tongue weight, as long as it doesn't make the rig unstable. You usually don't want to go with tongue weight under 10% of total weight on US trailers or you may get more pronounced sway.

 

[subiesailor]

Hmmm... I was hoping for more reassurance than naysayers. ;D

People throw these things behind mini-vans. Sure some of them have a V6 with a bit more power, but they're often just a 4spd automatic with front wheel drive! I've never done it though, so thanks for your real-world experience.

BC Provincial Parks don't have hydro hookup, so I don't really want a hard-walled trailer (with little windows) that just heats up all day. It would have more drag in-tow and there's also the potential to pack much more stuff! (I grew up with a 21' hardwall trailer, it was a Gypsy Queen with some aluminum framework). Even if I could use a/c at the parks, that just seems wrong. Those Camplites look nice, but they're pricy and rather big as well.

Almost every truck on the market is ready for a redesign... hopefully they'll be a bit more fuel-efficient in a few years. Right now the midsize trucks aren't any better than the full size ones (and they don't have as much power or space). I'm hoping for a better midsize option, but if that doesn't materialize, maybe I'll just go for the next F150 with an aluminum body and a V8. Longer trips over the mountains would be a breeze.

LOL no doubt that was my issue back in 2004-2005 time frame. Our 2.5L Legacy GT was not able to tow our 21ft racing boat to some of the events we like to race at - ie long climb in 100+ degree weather.

At the time the brand new Nissan Frontier was just out and posting mileage that was far better than anything else with 4doors and towing capacity and cooling capacity that would easily do the job. Not to mention Nissan was beat up bad over their horrid crash scores in the early 2000 time frame on all their models so they started redesigning their cars and trucks with some of the best crash scores the Frontier even today with its unchanged dated design is still one of the top contenders for roof strength and crash score safety.

But my issue was with the mileage vs new car cost. A new Frontier was 25K that was Manual 6spd - leather interior 4x4 model which they don't offer now. We were so close to pulling the trigger we were talking numbers with a sales guy. Out of the blue a good friend and car nut who runs his own Gwagon business think Jeep Adventure company only for Gwagon owners. He says to me look why not get an older Land Cruiser they are selling cheaper than 4runners with over 100K and 5yrs newer and are fantastic trucks. Lousy mileage but great trucks and the price is hard to ignore.
We ended up with a cherry single owner all records 1993 Land Cruiser paid $8000 for it in late 2004. 12-13mpg but it went everywhere with zero issues bit pricy on a couple of old car repairs knuckles - inner front axle seals and Valve cover gasket etc. I sold that truck three months ago for $7000! We bought a 2007 Toyota Sequoia - again single owner - all records - 64,000 miles on it mint condition paid 22K for it. We did a big family week long trip two grand parents - two kids - two parents - the dog - canoe and we brought all the food for the week. We burned two full tanks both averaging 18mpg no trailer.

I'm with you on the trucks all needing major remakes and improvements on mileage etc.
Today the only truck that has made a decent gain in mileage would be the Ford F150 with the new direct injection duel turbo V6 however the price tag is huge for that truck and your seeing about a 15% bump in mileage over the much cheaper lower tech engine. Again not really enough to justify the cost especially if you can simply buy a clean used one at a big discount.

Ford and GM both have completely new ground up trucks 4dr models sold in other markets which return fantastic mileage and would offer 5000lb towing capacity when needed. I don't see these trucks making it to North America till our fuel prices go up more. Given the cost of the smaller truck is going to be just as much as the F150 which case get the larger truck with more power and space mentality will still be in effect for North America.

 

[DerekH]

If cooling is the biggest problem, has anyone upgraded the radiator?

There's one here with almost 2.5x the surface area:
2011 Subaru outback Radiator

For $119, why not?

Though I wonder if one of these monsters would drop right in:
http://www.mishimoto.com/-subaru-impreza-sti-performance-aluminum-radiator-08-triple.html

 

[subiesailor]

For the 2010 and newer models - I've read about a few heavy towing folks going through various versions and locations for AT coolers to find a solution that provides better cooling for the AT over the stock set up - I have not heard of anyone reporting back about swapping out the stock radiator yet.

The tricky part with changing the cooling systems is knowing your base line capacity in stock form then running enough checks on the new set up to know if your actually seeing any improvement or possibly even less cooling capacity. The space the radiator has vs the air flow frontal surface vs amount of fluid its cooling all make the process of trying to add cooling ability pretty challenging actually. It's not really just swapping out whats there for a different radiator - its checking to see if all the other factors added coolant - space - air flow etc are all working in such away that your actually seeing additional cooling capacity over the stock set up.

 

[monty]

With my 2006 MT Outback I easily towed a Chalet that had an empty weight of 1350 lbs. through the desert, Arizona, Canada, over mountains, etc. The only issue is that you do not want to stop on a steep hill and then start out as this can tend to burn the clutch. However, it can be done if you are careful, that is, actually let the clutch out once movement is felt. Other issue is backing up with a manual transmission is not really efficient as the gearing is wrong, but still I had no trouble with my MT. You might consider the hardside popups like the Chalet if you do not have too many kids as they feel bigger in every way to a canvas poptop due to the great glass area. Do not get the extended sides as this cuts down the view. These hardside Alpine type roofs can withstand most any weather, even snow and sandstorms. Some, even have a built in bathroom.

The key to towing is really having electric brakes for the downhill sections. With my MT Outback mountains were never an issue or the weight with a full car and even a full trailer and two kayaks on top of the car. The key is balance and putting the weight over the axle without getting the trailer rear heavy, plus watching the starting on steep hills. My Chalet is like new after 8 years of use and takes under a minute to set up the main poptop and 5 minutes more to put the stabilizers down. It does not mildew or rip and is insulated.

 

[wxlidar]

We've towed our Fleetwood Yuma popup at least a dozen times with our OB. It works great. The popup weighs 1700lbs empty leaving us plenty of capacity for cargo and people. I've never encountered a problem. The popup has brakes so we installed a brake controller and braking has been fine.

Outside of this country the OB has a higher tow rating just like every other vehicle out there. I stay well below the 2700lb capacity but I wouldn't worry about getting close to the limit. I think the biggest factor is the mass of the OB keeping everything stable. Doesn't the forester have the same drivetrain but a lower towing capacity?

I inquired with the dealer about a transmission cooler and was told there isn't one available. I've never seen a temperature warning while towing and haven't had to add coolant.

 

[mcbrew]

I honestly don't know if it helps at all, but I added a bottle of RedLine Water Wetter to my radiator. I use their motor oil, too... It is one of the few TRUE synthetis oils that you can buy in the US. It also help to keep the engine running cooler, and resists thermal breakdown much better than conventional or semi-synthetis oils. I tow quite a bit with all of my cars, and I see less engine wear than similar engines that use conventional oil and don't tow at all. The proof is in the oil analysis!

 

[subiesailor]

I found the cooling limits many times with my 2001 2.5 MT 5spd - Subaru made improvements to the exhaust porting in 03 to help address the heat build up. By 09 subaru had increased the exhaust porting more - and started using more high tech engine parts treating which helped improve the heat durability however the wedge body design still had huge limitations to the cooling surface area of the radiator.

The Gen 4 is far better but!!!! It still has cooling built for a car not a truck. The CVT and the AT have very clear heat vs trailer load limitations regarding cooling ability 1350lbs and 1500lbs. The MT your cooling limitation is simply the engine. Good news is even though we don't have a gauge we do have a series of lights that will indicate hot running vs MUST stop now temps. If you tow heavy loads in hot temps make sure you know your dash indicators so you know when running the heater full blast and backing off is the best approach vs pulling over ASAP and trying to cool things down as fast as possible.

I tow in some seriously nasty places 110 degrees going from about 800ft above sea level to 8000ft in less than 30 miles. My Land Cruiser could only run at 35-45mph max hauling our 1700lb boat with 4 people running the AC any harder and the huge cooling system started to see a temp spike. On the flip side the F250 diesel chipped did the trip with two of us same boat doing 75mph on cruise control till we realized we were hauling ass! and need to slow it up a bit.

The 2001 2.5 hauled a 600lb racing sailboat up that same run several years packed with two people a 75lb dog and a weeks worth of food and camping gear - no AC - running at 35-40mph with a very very slight indication of hotter than normal running temps. The same car no trailer just two guys and two duffel bags could do that climb with the pedal mashed down nearly red lined at 45mph thats how steep the climb is. Absolutely NO WAY would the new Gen 4 2.5 tow the 1700lb boat up that climb without over heating! This is not the Rockies its just outside of Fresno CA headed to Huntington Lake in CA. Heck the year I rode my motorcycle up there even the bike had a severe case of altitude sickness.

I hauled about 1400lbs over the I5 Grapevine in Febuary outside temps were in the low 40's the Gen 4 2.5 hauled the 1400lbs easily at 65mph through the Vine with zero issues again cooling being the major issue not power. I could have easily pushed the car to 70mph if needed. Go through there in August when the temps are pushing 100+ No WAY would the 2.5 done 65mph through there with 1400lbs behind it.

 

[hiker74]

I looked at a 1200 lb dry weight 2010 Coleman (Fleetwood) Cobalt Pop up. I think I love this unit. I see a lot of used ones for sale. It has a Queen bed on one end and a full on the other. It also has a full width DInette that converts to another full size bed. It has a tubular steel frame and no wood framing only wood bed platforms and flooring. I have added this unit to my search criteria along with teh Starflyer 10, and Quicksilver 8.1. Have you ever checked yakaz.com? I have found it to be a good valuable resource in searching for campers. basically what it does is searches all of the classifieds and all of the craigslist sites. Only issue is some postings are already expired, but I still see the value

 

[DerekH]

Here's the one I want:

Open floorplan (so you're not climbing over stuff to get to the beds), decent storage, furnace, hot water heater, fridge, stove, 2 tables (could put one down for a bed), plus a King bed to sleep length-wise so we're not climbing over each other. Add a port-a-potti and it should be a great family camper. I don't plan to load it up... there just isn't enough room for 4 people to go tent camping in an outback. This puts the shelter, bedding, lawn chairs and some food behind the car. Hopefully bathing suits and hiking boots will minimize the number of toys required. ;D

I think my outback should tow it, though I probably won't go over the mountains. I'll probably look for a better tow vehicle in the future (a truck to carry bikes etc along).

Tow vehicle aside:
The 2013 Ram gets modest weight reduction, Pentastar V6 and 8spd tranny for 25mpg. That's the new benchmark for trucks.

The next F150 will have even more weight reduction. I wouldn't be surprised if the 5L 'Coyote' gets 25 mpg with an 8spd (The next V6 should be even better, but I'm not sure it'll be offered with the 4x4).

GM seems to have given up on fuel economy in their full-size trucks, but the next Canyon/Colorado will certainly have to do better than 25 mpg if they want to sell it. Their 2.5L ecotec has a bit more power than our subaru (195HP/187#), and could probably get over 30 mpg, but I'd be inclined to go for more power. If they package the 3.6L with an 8spd automatic, it should be closer to 30 mpg (though that powertrain could be costly and might be saved for the cadillacs and big trucks). Maybe they'll go for the 2L turbo with 259HP/260#, which supposedly gets 30mpg in a Malibu on the highway:
Green Car Congress: New power-dense 2.0L GDI turbo with twin-scroll turbocharger and new combustion system offered in 2013 Chevrolet Malibu

The Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier are both due for a make-over, but if they use any of the companies current engines, I can't see the fuel economy being that impressive. It's hard to believe that the Japanese engines are falling behind the American's!

 

[DerekH]

Here's the one I want:

Open floorplan (so you're not climbing over stuff to get to the beds), decent storage, furnace, hot water heater, fridge, stove, 2 tables (could put one down for a bed), plus a King bed to sleep length-wise so we're not climbing over each other. Add a port-a-potti and it should be a great family camper. I don't plan to load it up... there just isn't enough room for 4 people to go tent camping in an outback. This puts the shelter, bedding, lawn chairs and some food behind the car. Hopefully bathing suits and hiking boots will minimize the number of toys required. ;D

I think my outback should tow it, though I probably won't go over the mountains. I'll probably look for a better tow vehicle in the future (a truck to carry bikes etc along).

Tow vehicle aside:
The 2013 Ram gets modest weight reduction, Pentastar V6 and 8spd tranny for 25mpg. That's the new benchmark for trucks.

The next F150 will have even more weight reduction. I wouldn't be surprised if the 5L 'Coyote' gets 25 mpg with an 8spd (The next V6 should be even better, but I'm not sure it'll be offered with the 4x4).

GM seems to have given up on fuel economy in their full-size trucks, but the next Canyon/Colorado will certainly have to do better than 25 mpg if they want to sell it. Their 2.5L ecotec has a bit more power than our subaru (195HP/187#), and could probably get over 30 mpg, but I'd be inclined to go for more power. If they package the 3.6L with an 8spd automatic, it should be closer to 30 mpg (though that powertrain could be costly and might be saved for the cadillacs and big trucks). Maybe they'll go for the 2L turbo with 259HP/260#, which supposedly gets 30mpg in a Malibu on the highway:
Green Car Congress: New power-dense 2.0L GDI turbo with twin-scroll turbocharger and new combustion system offered in 2013 Chevrolet Malibu

The Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier are both due for a make-over, but if they use any of the companies current engines, I can't see the fuel economy being that impressive. It's hard to believe that the Japanese engines are falling behind the American's!

On edit... Toyota should continue their collaborations with Subaru (ala Scion-FRS/GT86) and throw a turbo-boxer engine in the next Tacoma!