Subaru Outback Forums banner

1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As promised attached is my UOA using M1 0w-40 instead of the recommended 5w-30. From my studying of the subject on what engine oil Subie recommends in other parts of the world, 5w-30 is most common but in certain regions Xw-40 is also recommended.

To see if there were any negative consequences, this run used 0w-40 and it included hauling a full car through the upper part of AZ where some days it was 118 but most were 104 or so. Lots of stop and go on SoCal freeways too.

Blackstone finds this to be an excellent oil for the car and with the TBN being high, they're hinting that it can go thousands of miles longer. The univeral wear numbers for this engine are low with this oil so by using Blackstone as a constant testing lab, I can say this oil works very well in this engine.

The last UOA was for M1 5w-30 dex1gen2 which Blackstone found to be a perfect UOA for my car as well. Notice that the calcium level for the 5w-30 is lower than the 0w-40 which is due to most all manufacuters reducing calcium in their oils to address current challenges. Zinc is much higher in the 40 since it's used in high performance cars where the zinc is vital.

My current fill is M1 0w-30 AFE and that should be swapped out in December. I have a couple of cases of Castrol Belgium 0w-30 that also gave great UOAs on this engine that I'll use up but as you can see, thicker oils, along with thiner ones, have no detrimental impact on the engine and to the contrary, the wear numbers were better or have longer service life if I wanted to extend it. The engine was very quiet on the 0w-40.


If your environment is severe service, hot, towing or high oil temps 40wt oils are A-OK. It could comfortably be used year round in the coldest of winters and the hottest of summers.
 

Attachments

·
I simply cannot abide useless people.
2006 2.5i and 2002 3.0 wagons.
Joined
·
12,269 Posts
I'm on my second OCI of M1 0w40 in Mal, although my goal was to see if a slightly thicker oil helped quiet down the noisy early run timing chain that has not had the most religious oil changes over it's life. First run was for 8,000 miles. This one I'm going for 10,000 and a UOA, although I'm gonna need some top up due to a leak or two. Probably gonna switch to Castrol Edge 0w40 next, it seems to run a few dollars cheaper and has more specs than the M1.

He runs well on it, noticed a slight MPG drop but not super significant.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'm on my second OCI of M1 0w40 in Mal, although my goal was to see if a slightly thicker oil helped quiet down the noisy early run timing chain that has not had the most religious oil changes over it's life. First run was for 8,000 miles. This one I'm going for 10,000 and a UOA, although I'm gonna need some top up due to a leak or two. Probably gonna switch to Castrol Edge 0w40 next, it seems to run a few dollars cheaper and has more specs than the M1.

He runs well on it, noticed a slight MPG drop but not super significant.

I tend to agree that my mileage may have taken a tick of hit but with my driving conditions varying, sometimes from one day to the next, I can't say that's affirmatively the case. I'm more inclined to think my R foot is a bigger culprit than the oil.


Euro Edge 0w-40 meets the BMW LL-01 standard although the M1 meets Porsche A40 along with a bunch of VW and MB standards. Both are extremely robust oils that put them in a better league than API.
 

·
Brucey
'17 3.6 Limited
Joined
·
10,490 Posts
@Rub

Between this and my recent "cheapest 5w30 I can find" oil change I'm starting to be convinced that these engines just need oil.

Find half a quart open in the back of the shelf? It would probably be fine.
 

·
I simply cannot abide useless people.
2006 2.5i and 2002 3.0 wagons.
Joined
·
12,269 Posts
Between this and my recent "cheapest 5w30 I can find" oil change I'm starting to be convinced that these engines just need oil.
For the NA 2.5 and the 3.0/3.6, I'm inclined to believe you're right. The turbo...maybe no so much.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
@Rub

Between this and my recent "cheapest 5w30 I can find" oil change I'm starting to be convinced that these engines just need oil.

Find half a quart open in the back of the shelf? It would probably be fine.
I moving in your direction with addition of trying to use a dexos1Gen2 oil when you buy and then tailoring the viscosity to your environment.

Living in frgid conditions might warrant 0w and living in AZ with the AC going all the time suggests a thicker high end such as a 40.

But I do agree that a 30w for a turbo would be a good idea, if it met the Honda HT-06 spec.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
UPDATE:


I just completed a 6k run of M1 AFE 0/30 using the Fram Ultra 9688 filter. Each of the changes on the attached report have been with the same filter and in this particular report they commented on the excellent filtering, although it is consistent throughout all changes.


These reports are kind of boring but they are another firm data point on oil of different viscosities and certifications in my engine. Of particular note are a couple of things: The oil shows a very high TBN of 4.5 and if I wanted to push this to 10k I'm very confident the oil would handle it with ease. Wear metals are excellent and there are no soluables I'm runing the aFe Dry Filter in the airbox and it's been untouched for well over a year so it's doing the job.



The second thing is not alarming but it is notable and that's the cSt value of 10.04. That is perfectly within the range although it's more low normal than mid to high normal. It's not a worry since the oil did the job, as the analysis shows. It is relative to my driving because this last run had a good amount of pure highway, a lot of stop and go in LA traffic but also a good bunch of very short trips where the oil never got up to sustained temps. To a degree it's a little thinner than I prefer for all season driving because I take an annual road trip during the middle of the summer through the heat of AZ and UT and going up some long grades with a full car and cargo box, the oil temp is up in mid to high 220's for periods of time and runing the numbers shows it could thin to a 20w if the temps were sustained. A 40w stays in the 30w grade without any doubt in very high heat cirucmstances and my next to last change used the M1 0w-40 with an excellent report.


My take is that like Brucey said before, just change the oil with something that meets spec and do it at a reasonable interval. The Fram Ultra remains a top choice, even without the unicorn high bypass setting that is not needed. People who say it's mandatory don't have the UOAs to back up their positions but you can see I've freely posted them for anyone to see and study. A good synthetic media with high flow beats the blue can specs everytime, IMO.


Also, 30w oil is fine for the car unless you encounter high temps such as in the South or in the SW US and in those cases, a bump up in viscosity shows no harm and even gives a good margin for protection. If I lived somewhere where those high ambient temps were minimal and the oil temp didn't climb past 212 F, I'd run anything 30w and call it a day. 0w-30 or 5w-30 are all fine. Look for the dex1gen2 on the front of the bottle and buy with confidence.



The current fill is back to the Belgian Castrol 0w-30 which is an SL rated A3/B4 oil. It meets no spec in the OM other than viscosity and it's a very thick 30w that's almost a 40w. IMO, it's a much more robust standard than the SN so it's more than fine. This is my 3d run using SL oil in the car and the UOAs are extremely good.


I'll post the next one in 4 months or so and we'll see how it looks then.


In the meantime, crunch the data and see if it helps in the maintenance of our own cars. I'm not here to change minds but rather offer data for consumption.
 

Attachments

·
Brucey
'17 3.6 Limited
Joined
·
10,490 Posts
UPDATE:


I just completed a 6k run of M1 AFE 0/30 using the Fram Ultra 9688 filter. Each of the changes on the attached report have been with the same filter and in this particular report they commented on the excellent filtering, although it is consistent throughout all changes.


These reports are kind of boring but they are another firm data point on oil of different viscosities and certifications in my engine. Of particular note are a couple of things: The oil shows a very high TBN of 4.5 and if I wanted to push this to 10k I'm very confident the oil would handle it with ease. Wear metals are excellent and there are no soluables I'm runing the aFe Dry Filter in the airbox and it's been untouched for well over a year so it's doing the job.



The second thing is not alarming but it is notable and that's the cSt value of 10.04. That is perfectly within the range although it's more low normal than mid to high normal. It's not a worry since the oil did the job, as the analysis shows. It is relative to my driving because this last run had a good amount of pure highway, a lot of stop and go in LA traffic but also a good bunch of very short trips where the oil never got up to sustained temps. To a degree it's a little thinner than I prefer for all season driving because I take an annual road trip during the middle of the summer through the heat of AZ and UT and going up some long grades with a full car and cargo box, the oil temp is up in mid to high 220's for periods of time and runing the numbers shows it could thin to a 20w if the temps were sustained. A 40w stays in the 30w grade without any doubt in very high heat cirucmstances and my next to last change used the M1 0w-40 with an excellent report.


My take is that like Brucey said before, just change the oil with something that meets spec and do it at a reasonable interval. The Fram Ultra remains a top choice, even without the unicorn high bypass setting that is not needed. People who say it's mandatory don't have the UOAs to back up their positions but you can see I've freely posted them for anyone to see and study. A good synthetic media with high flow beats the blue can specs everytime, IMO.


Also, 30w oil is fine for the car unless you encounter high temps such as in the South or in the SW US and in those cases, a bump up in viscosity shows no harm and even gives a good margin for protection. If I lived somewhere where those high ambient temps were minimal and the oil temp didn't climb past 212 F, I'd run anything 30w and call it a day. 0w-30 or 5w-30 are all fine. Look for the dex1gen2 on the front of the bottle and buy with confidence.



The current fill is back to the Belgian Castrol 0w-30 which is an SL rated A3/B4 oil. It meets no spec in the OM other than viscosity and it's a very thick 30w that's almost a 40w. IMO, it's a much more robust standard than the SN so it's more than fine. This is my 3d run using SL oil in the car and the UOAs are extremely good.


I'll post the next one in 4 months or so and we'll see how it looks then.


In the meantime, crunch the data and see if it helps in the maintenance of our own cars. I'm not here to change minds but rather offer data for consumption.
When I'm done with the VDC Baja project I should be able to share oil and oil filters been the two cars.

This will be a nice excuse to buy in bulk.
 

·
SubaruOutback.org Founder
2018 Outbacks, Grey Premium & Silver Limited
Joined
·
4,614 Posts
@Rub in the recent Rotella tgread you were mentioning your usage of M1 0w-40 and I am have been thinking about using it in not only my current FB2.5 but also thinking about how suitable it may be to use in a FB2.5D or FA2.4F in a 2020 Outback.

For some background on my motives I currently use M1 0W40 in my 2005 Dodge Sprinter and am considering its usage in a 2012 Hyundai Accent GLS with a GDI engine based on another owner's strong recommendation. It would be great to be able to use one oil product for all my vehicles.

Has any of you oil research encompassed Subaru's two newest DI engines?
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Kevin,

Data is short on the Ascent engine (FA24DIT) and the best and closest cousin seems to be the WRX engine (FA20DIT).

Castrol S. Africa recommends Magnatec 5/30 A5 and Magnatec 5/40 A3/B4 for those and I imagine they will both be recommended for the FA24DIT at a future point.

The M1 0/40 and new Pennzoil 0/40 SN+ ought be very good in the new OB.

I could comfortably go up a grade in any DI engine given the iffy track record of DI, especially Honda and is warranty was a concern, most any 5/30 d1G2 that meets A5/B5 will excellent.

Next weekend I'm dumping the M1 AP after 8k and trying the Pennzoil 0/40.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Ok, just got t back the UOA running M1 AP 5/30. It was an 8k interval and the oil still had another 2k, according to Blackstone.

I can't seem to post the numbers on mobi but I'll do it later. Several things from the numbers that stand out:

1. The flashpoint was lower than before but still above recommended levels. There was no fuel dilution.

2. The TBN at 8k was 3.7.

3. The cSt value dropped from 11.7 to 10.6 This is still very much still in the 30w viscosity range but it shows that my engine breaks it down on a consistent basis of about .85 per 1k miles.

4. M1 AP is a very good oil but I wouldn't pay the full price or the Walmart price unless there was a rebate. Good stuff but not worth the money when EP is available. Also, this doesn't look to be a one year or 20k oil, least in my car that qualifies as severe use. 10k in severe service would be very remarkable.

5. The current fill is PP Euro 0w-40 that's A3/B4 rated. I'll test that one when I change it in a few months. Very smooth running so far.

The comments:

"This is another nice report for your Outback. You're up to almost 8,000 miles and wear still looks just as good as it did when you were doing ~5,000 miles, so feel free to run longer again next time around. In fact you could take it all the way up to 10,000 miles - you might get slightly more iron, but otherwise there shouldn't be much change at all. At 3.7, the TBN shows active additive remaining for more use. The viscosity is correct for 5W/30 oil and no measurable fuel, coolant, or water contamination was detected. Looking good at 69,069 miles!"
 

·
SubaruOutback.org Founder
2018 Outbacks, Grey Premium & Silver Limited
Joined
·
4,614 Posts
M1 AP is a very good oil but I wouldn't pay the full price or the Walmart price unless there was a rebate. Good stuff but not worth the money when EP is available. Also, this doesn't look to be a one year or 20k oil, least in my car that qualifies as severe use. 10k in severe service would be very remarkable.
I read some analysis that some guy did on every current Mobil 1 oil commonly available and he suggested that AP 0w20 has at least 70% PAO base whereas EP 0w20 and 0w40 are something like 40% PAO, 60% GTL. That extra PAO content bumps the jug price up about $10 but I have yet to see a UOA on M1 AP that has produced better results than M1 EP. In fact I have heard more complaints about AP than probably any other oil and not just because of the price. Apparently many are having serious consumption issues.

All my cars seem to like SOPUS oils as well as Mobil 1 0w40 though I have not run that in a Subaru just yet.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I read some analysis that some guy did on every current Mobil 1 oil commonly available and he suggested that AP 0w20 has at least 70% PAO base whereas EP 0w20 and 0w40 are something like 40% PAO, 60% GTL. That extra PAO content bumps the jug price up about $10 but I have yet to see a UOA on M1 AP that has produced better results than M1 EP. In fact I have heard more complaints about AP than probably any other oil and not just because of the price. Apparently many are having serious consumption issues.

All my cars seem to like SOPUS oils as well as Mobil 1 0w40 though I have not run that in a Subaru just yet.
I don't see where AP has carved out a useful niche in their product and the circumstances justifying a necessary use are indeed rare, except for one thing that comes to mind.

AP started with a cSt of 11.7 and 8k later it went down to 10.6. i don't have a dilution issue but if someone had a GDI with known dilution issues, this will probably work for 10k. If I were to do a lot of highway driving by there's better justification for AP but then there's the cost.

Even EP starts off mid grade at around 10.6 and 8k later, at least in my car, I might expect a final cSt of around 9.5 which is a rather thin 30. In that case it's almost better to use regular vanilla M1 and change it every 6-7k.

I have no consumption issues and have never in 3 1/2 years had to top off any oil between changes, regardless of manufacturer. I go through about 1/4 to 1/3 qt.

Like Brucey said in another thread, just change it with something that meets the latest specs at a decent interval. Dex1Gen2 and A5/B5 on the same label will be more than adequate.

I feel so ickey when I agree with @Brucey.
 

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
UPDATE:

As promised to those who've been glued to their monitors with unsettled anticipation, this is the actual report from my last UOA.

All is good, regardless of viscosity with either a 30 or 40.

Motor on.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
2018 Outback 3.6R Limited
Joined
·
133 Posts
Throwing my oily hat into the ring. Here's just-received UOA for my 3.6 at 29,832; 5,907 on the oil; Subaru Tokyo-Roki black filter. Oil/filter changes every 6,000 from new but this is first UOA. Especially interested in low iron and silicone numbers. I use magnets on the oil filter and K&N for the air filter. Wondering if those are the reasons.
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
2016 3.6 Limited with ES
Joined
·
2,461 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
That's a nice UOA and the PP is a good oil.

I don't think it's the filters or magnets that are giving you the numbers to the exclusion of other combos. I use the aFe dry filter and Fram Ultra and my numbers are similar through 69k miles but my last interval was 8k.

Some people say the K&N aren't great filters but I have other UOAs on other cars with them and they are just fine. Leave the filter on for at least 50k bc it filters even better.

Good looking engine!

Forgot to add that Prolong isn't needed and if anything, it may mess up the chemistry of the PP. It's not making the oil better and most consider it to be a way to a thinner wallet. PP is an outstanding oil all by itself and your interval will be just fine on unadulterated PP.
 

·
Registered
2018 Outback 3.6R Limited
Joined
·
133 Posts
That's a nice UOA and the PP is a good oil.

I don't think it's the filters or magnets that are giving you the numbers to the exclusion of other combos. I use the aFe dry filter and Fram Ultra and my numbers are similar through 69k miles but my last interval was 8k.

Some people say the K&N aren't great filters but I have other UOAs on other cars with them and they are just fine. Leave the filter on for at least 50k bc it filters even better.

Good looking engine!

Forgot to add that Prolong isn't needed and if anything, it may mess up the chemistry of the PP. It's not making the oil better and most consider it to be a way to a thinner wallet. PP is an outstanding oil all by itself and your interval will be just fine on unadulterated PP.
Thanks for opinion! New to this. What's the deal with out-of-range potassium number, though? Understand that's anti-freeze element but none of the other ant-freeze elements are out of range. (I think I'll sleep well anyway)

I am aware of Prolong most likely being snake-oil. It was an impulse-buy that will likely not be repeated. Didn't think harmful but suspect little benefit if any.
 

·
Brucey
'17 3.6 Limited
Joined
·
10,490 Posts
So the conclusion is not only does oil type not matter much but oil viscosity doesn't matter much either?
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top