Subaru Outback Forums banner
241 - 260 of 271 Posts

·
Master Caster
🖤💔💙 3 Beautiful OBXTs
Joined
·
16,351 Posts
Unfortunately. I develop and manufacture all of my own products by hand, in my spare time. Ha, "spare time". I have very limited resources when it comes to shape creation. I can basically copy shapes, and otherwise find ways to "sculpt " shapes out of household materials.

If I had access to a high quality 3D scanner and 3D printer and software that could modify a scanned piece of tooling, then things would be different.

The cross hatching that many bushing companies use, wears and then you have a similar smooth-ish surface that can squeak. They all squeak if they dry out.

I suspect the original CKE line of sway bar bushings are just too tight. See they are patterned exactly after to OEM which have a 1mm decrease in hole diameter vs the bar. OEM rubber deforms pretty quickly. I suspect thier design is to retain performance after deformation. I thought it would be good for my design as well. Maybe Not.

Most other bushings I see, fit loose, almost. That was one thing I didn't like about the WL bushings that came with my WL bars. After 5K miles, they clicked/clunked before the bar engaged.

The Cusco bars that are on LittleBlu are like that. I can't wait to make some CKEs for that car. But 1st things 1st....the grease channel development is kicking my *ss. But. I'm getting there. My 1st attempt (design) has failed hard. They can't be manufactured effectively. So it's back to the drawing board. I have a strong design 2nd effort brewing that I might actually be proud of. Stay tuned to my CKE bushing thread from those updates.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #242 · (Edited)
What if you used one of those sand coated epoxy kits to coat the inner core? The trick would be getting the right thickness.

Also there might be some folks here with a 3d printer that could make you a center core with a texture you specify. @chvvkumar I think has one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: traildogck

·
Master Caster
🖤💔💙 3 Beautiful OBXTs
Joined
·
16,351 Posts
What if you used one of those sand coated epoxy kits to coat the inner core? The trick would be getting the right thickness.

Also there might be some folks here with a 3d printer that could make you a center core with a texture you specify. @chvvkumar I think has one.
Interesting point.

I only need a 1 time cast for the tooling, which creates the master mold. A Rustolem rattle can "granite " or other simple DIY offering will work. Or something like "bed liner " on the center plug. I don't need anything special for a one time use. I have several more ideas brewing now to create a "texture "
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #245 ·
@HeyChris just showed us a nifty trick that will make reading about the sway bar easier - this link will only show my posts for easier viewing - it's still cluttered but less so:
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoryDJeter

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #246 · (Edited)
Just finished removing the universal clamps and bushings and installing the new Whiteline rear sway bar bushings that fit in the OE clamp and the Whiteline 20mm sway bar.

While I don't have durometer figures they feel very firm, maybe 90 durometer would be my guess but maybe Whiteline can provide real figures. It's knurled inside and pre-slit. I installed them with the slit facing down, using a thick uniform layer of Whiteline's bushing lubricant in the knurled bore. I used a gloved finger to apply the lube and if I felt the nubs of the knurling under my finger it was too thin so I applied enough so that as I spun the bushing I couldn't feel any nubs.

The only deviation from normal is that I put blue locktite on the 12mm bolts for the bracket and used 20 foot pounds on my torque wrench instead of 28. The reason why I did this is that with the universal clamps at 28 foot pounds it was slipping because of the two elongated holes and making a clicking noise, so I over torqued them to 32 foot pounds and while it solved the problem, I was warned that these 12mm bolts can easily strip especially with repeated use.

By re-using the OE clamps you won't need to over-torque the bolts and risk stripping them, so I recommend going with 28 foot pounds dry, or if you use locktite realize that it has a lubricating effect, so the proper torque would be around 22 foot pounds.

The Loctite people recommend reducing applied torque by 20 percent from dry values when using their liquid thread-locking compounds on threaded fasteners. You can find tables of wet-vs.-dry fastener torques in places like Thomas J. Glover's "The Pocket Ref" (inexpensive, used, on Amazon), but judging from the values given, a fair estimate would be a 25 percent reduction in torque when tightening an oiled or anti-seize-treated fastener.
from https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/...locker-should-i-reduce-the-tightening-torque/

It fit like a glove, no issues, but when you remove the OE bushings they've been pre-compressed into the OE bracket. The Whiteline bushings outside dimensions measured by caliper are slightly smaller by 1/2 of a millimeter than the OE bushings but much firmer, and on initial install the brackets will be held away from the mounting surface by about 3/16" but there's room inside the bracket for the bushing to get pushed into - it's not excessively squeezing the bushing as if it's too big but it is absolutely not "loose" at all. I'd say it's a perfect fit.

I drove around a bit, no clicking, feels just as good as it did with the universal clamps, which is to say it feels amazing.:love:

Addendum: Whiteline has been informed that the bushings are good to go and I am told that Whiteline's new lube formula is a silicone base with PTFE. The old one was lithium complex base with Moly.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Onyx XT - Autumn Green
Joined
·
139 Posts
Just finished removing the universal clamps and bushings and installing the new Whiteline rear sway bar bushings that fit in the OE clamp and the Whiteline 20mm sway bar.

While I don't have durometer figures they feel very firm, maybe 90 durometer would be my guess but maybe Whiteline can provide real figures. It's knurled inside and pre-slit. I installed them with the slit facing down, using a thick uniform layer of Whiteline's bushing lubricant in the knurled bore. I used a gloved finger to apply the lube and if I felt the nubs of the knurling under my finger it was too thin so I applied enough so that as I spun the bushing I couldn't feel any nubs.

The only deviation from normal is that I put blue locktite on the 12mm bolts for the bracket and used 20 foot pounds on my torque wrench instead of 28. The reason why I did this is that with the universal clamps at 28 foot pounds it was slipping because of the two elongated holes and making a clicking noise, so I over torqued them to 32 foot pounds and while it solved the problem, I was warned that these 12mm bolts can easily strip especially with repeated use.

By re-using the OE clamps you won't need to over-torque the bolts and risk stripping them, so I recommend going with 28 foot pounds dry, or if you use locktite realize that it has a lubricating effect, so the proper torque would be around 22 foot pounds.

from https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/07/...locker-should-i-reduce-the-tightening-torque/

It fit like a glove, no issues, but when you remove the OE bushings they've been pre-compressed into the OE bracket. The Whiteline bushings outside dimensions measured by caliper are slightly smaller by 1/2 of a millimeter than the OE bushings but much firmer, and on initial install the brackets will be held away from the mounting surface by about 3/16" but there's room inside the bracket for the bushing to get pushed into - it's not excessively squeezing the bushing as if it's too big but it is absolutely not "loose" at all. I'd say it's a perfect fit.

I drove around a bit, no clicking, feels just as good as it did with the universal clamps, which is to say it feels amazing.:love:

Addendum: Whiteline has been informed that the bushings are good to go and I am told that Whiteline's new lube formula is a silicone base with PTFE. The old one was lithium complex base with Moly.
I'm glad that noise went away! can't wait for mines to come in.
 

·
Registered
2022 OB Tour 2.5 Aut Green, 20 mm RSB, Vred HighTrac tires, (3rd OB). City car is Kia Niro PHEV
Joined
·
610 Posts
For me one of the major pluses of installing larger RSB has always been better handling with no discernable difference in NHV. Has worked fine for my 3 Subies. In each case I have used the OEM bushings & links.

90 durometer sounds pretty firm, I'm guessing that is at least double if not triple of OEM factory bushings (?).
Any discernable difference NHV between the OEM bushings and Whiteline's PU bushing?
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverOnyx

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #249 ·
In the 2020 the sway bar bushings front and rear feel to my hand like 75 durometer, when compared to @traildogck 's 75 durometer bushings, so it's pretty firm to begin with, but I'm not exactly sure what the OE bushings are made of. They don't feel to me like regular rubber. I'd say that there's no difference in NVH when I put in Traildock's 85 durometer front sway bar bushings, his 85 durometer rear sway bar bushings, or the Whiteline ? durometer bushings. Specifically I don't detect any increase in road roar, bearing noise, and one would think that it would transmit suspension vibrations to the sway bar mounts more, but I think Subaru designed the sway bar mounts in a clever way where it's not a sounding board to road vibration. I haven't looked at it with that in mind but surprisingly it's quiet no matter how stiff the bushings get - on my car.

The thicker rear sway bar makes a dramatic improvement in handling, and while it doesn't increase NVH, on uneven pavement you will feel the car jostle more, but without any creaking or clanking or clicking. The only thing that increased noise on my car is a stiffer dogbone/pitch stop and I think the whiteline inserts do so minimally compared to the Group N or other aftermarket ones (just guessing here - the Cobb is said to be fairly quiet but I haven't heard it myself). So if you want a quiet car, leave the pitch stop stock.

It's impossible to really judge durometer just by hand so I could be way off - for all I know the official durometer is only 75 so don't let my guess scare anyone. It's fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
482 Posts
In the 2020 the sway bar bushings front and rear feel to my hand like 75 durometer, when compared to @traildogck 's 75 durometer bushings, so it's pretty firm to begin with, but I'm not exactly sure what the OE bushings are made of. They don't feel to me like regular rubber. I'd say that there's no difference in NVH when I put in Traildock's 85 durometer front sway bar bushings, his 85 durometer rear sway bar bushings, or the Whiteline ? durometer bushings. Specifically I don't detect any increase in road roar, bearing noise, and one would think that it would transmit suspension vibrations to the sway bar mounts more, but I think Subaru designed the sway bar mounts in a clever way where it's not a sounding board to road vibration. I haven't looked at it with that in mind but surprisingly it's quiet no matter how stiff the bushings get - on my car.

The thicker rear sway bar makes a dramatic improvement in handling, and while it doesn't increase NVH, on uneven pavement you will feel the car jostle more, but without any creaking or clanking or clicking. The only thing that increased noise on my car is a stiffer dogbone/pitch stop and I think the whiteline inserts do so minimally compared to the Group N or other aftermarket ones (just guessing here - the Cobb is said to be fairly quiet but I haven't heard it myself). So if you want a quiet car, leave the pitch stop stock.

It's impossible to really judge durometer just by hand so I could be way off - for all I know the official durometer is only 75 so don't let my guess scare anyone. It's fine.
SilverOnyx, I was doing some mental exercise today, giving thought what the new 20mm say bar would do to the car in the Moose Test. Recently I saw video of the gen 5, I believe, doing very well in the moose test and began to wonder if the rear end may be more apt to step out with the addition of a stiffer rear bar.
Granted, the test was for the gen5, not the 6 so comparison is difficult. But I still wonder and am curious to hear your thoughts.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #251 ·
I like mental exercises and it's how I think about things I haven't yet experienced myself, trying to elucidate the chain of causation, how one thing affects another, down the line, but there are also black boxes in the causality chain that are hidden variables, plus the real world doesn't always operate to over-simplified theories - for example I don't take into account chassis flex, or how the stability control operates and whether or not the suspension changes exceed the parameters it expects - but:

The stability control is expected to work in snow and ice, gravel, different traction surfaces, within limits whose boundaries I don't really know, but it takes into account steering angle and various sensors.

If there were no stability control and brake based torque vectoring, it's relatively straightforward that stiffening the rear will make it more prone to swing around. Since our cars are heavily understeer prone, the question is how much extra stiffness will still maintain safe understeer vs oversteer. And this varies by how sharp one is turning, whether one is braking or accelerating, the surface, etc.

The worst case scenario is entering a corner too fast, turning sharply and then braking. This will put weight on the front tires, unload the rears, and the rear can swing around.

In the Moose Test, when they make the test swerve, they lift throttle on corner entry but do not brake. There is such a thing as lift throttle oversteer - it's not as bad as braking in the middle of a corner but it does shift weight and traction towards the front of the vehicle as speed is scrubbed off by the front tires. Then after recovery they do brake.

I have also read that the moose test is conducted with weights in the car to simulate passengers and cargo at the car's load limit.



It's safe to assume that the Gen 5 and Gen 6 Outbacks both have significant understeer built in, and the stability control is used to reduce understeer but not so much as to induce oversteer, but hopefully it also intervenes to prevent oversteer. Each wheel is braked independently. But these interventions can only go so far. In moose tests of Subaru Forester vs other AWD SUVs, the stability control scrubbed off a lot of speed in others but the Subaru it did so minimally.

In my street-testing of the Whiteline 20mm sway bar, I used both the soft setting, and the hard setting. I drove sharp corners down hill and purposely braked mid corner even if it was off camber to try to induce the rear sliding out. But these were on dry roads at 30 mph. The rear did not slide out at all with either stiffness settings. I lack the facilities to safely test this at high speed or on wet roads.

In the context of the real-world experience of dozens of forum members with stiff rear sway bars on Gen 2, 3, 4, 5 outbacks, oversteer does not seem to be a common problem, although one member did have this happen to his wife on a wet road. That's why even though I don't own a Gen 5 I urge people to choose the 19mm instead of the thicker options, or maybe even the 18mm so that the car isn't shifted too much towards oversteer. In my mind you want the minimum amount of extra stiffness that will achieve responsive cornering.

Because the Whiteline 20mm sway bar adds length to the lever arm, napkin calculations put it at the equivalent stiffness of a 19.5mm rear sway bar on the soft setting, and around 21mm on the hard setting.

I found the soft setting to achieve excellent responsiveness without harshness and was surprised at how much worse the stiff setting felt, without increasing control.

Would an even thinner rear sway bar - say 18mm equivalent work just as well? I don't know but we don't have that option right now. I can say that I have increased rear sway bar stiffness in two previous Subarus (Legacy GT Wagon and WRX) but only by 2mm and the change was subtle not dramatic. Our sway bars, though 19mm are hollow and have the stiffness of a solid 16mm bar, so we're effectively going from a solid 16mm bar to a solid 19.5mm bar in stiffness and the improvement surprised me.

So back to the original question - would our cars fail the moose test with the thicker sway bar, oversteering the way certain sports cars do when tested? I don't think so. Even with the Whiteline rear sway bar I think the car still has intrinsic understeer - it's not oversteer happy - but that is not to say that the car can't oversteer. Any car can, with the right confluence of factors.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
482 Posts
Excellent response, thank you.
The one thing the gen 6 has over the 5 is the Global Platform which is supposed to be stiffer. I can imagine that will play some part in how the car reacts to suspension changes as it makes the suspension do the work vs the body unit flexing and soaking up suspension component effort.
I'm really looking forward to getting the new bar installed and experiencing the differences it makes myself. As the car is now I'm really happy with it, only noticing body roll in roundabouts and when I'm a bit naughty and take corners faster than a station wagon should. If I get similar results to those which you shared here in your testing I'll be thrilled. I was very happy with my gen 6 Legacy 3.6R and how it handled left in factory trim.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #253 ·
I think you will be very pleased. It really makes the car drive as-if it is lowered. Much flatter and better controlled on turn-in. Almost everyone who installs the stiffer rear sway bar in any generation of Outback is thrilled at the improvement. I can't recall an instance of someone saying they didn't like it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HKshooter

·
Registered
2022 OB Tour 2.5 Aut Green, 20 mm RSB, Vred HighTrac tires, (3rd OB). City car is Kia Niro PHEV
Joined
·
610 Posts
Coming from a 2010 Outback with an 18mm WRX RSB & a 2015 OB with a 20mm STI RSB, I've been gobsmacked at how flat in the corners my 22 OB in stock form. I think it corners flatter than either of the two previous ones did after the addition of larger RSB. Admittedly I didn't have an opportunity to drive the '15 and '22 back to back on the same corners so perhaps I'm just infatuated. But my butt o meter says the new Gen 6 platform & suspension is a huge improvement of Gen 5.
I've got a Whiteline 20mm ordered but now questioning if I need it.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #255 ·
Once you install it you won't have any doubts - I guarantee it. It makes a world of difference and if you think it's good now you will be positively shocked at how good a platform the Gen 6 is.
 

·
Premium Member
2020 Onyx
Joined
·
15,383 Posts
Discussion Starter · #256 ·
I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it's worth repeating - I had already done a bunch of small enhancements to the car and I too was wondering if I really needed a stiffer rear sway bar, but after having begged for it, when the time came to test it, I felt I needed to see it through. I was expecting subtle improvement like I had with other rear sway bars and was shocked and thrilled at the improvement. It exceeded my expectations and I have installed stiffer rear sway bars before, with good but not dramatic results. This was transformative. I can't wait for you guys to install yours. I have spoken with @Whiteline and they will make an announcement when the bars are ready to ship. I can say that production is going well. It's not being held back.
 

·
Premium Member
2021 OB Touring, 2011 OB Premium
Joined
·
1,279 Posts
The 19mm RSB I installed on our 2011 Premium made a world of difference, especially on the mountain roadways when we lived in the Central Sierras of California. I eagerly await my Whiteline RSB for our 2021 Touring.

Steve
 
  • Like
Reactions: SilverOnyx

·
Premium Member
Subaru Ambassador: 2021 Onyx XT w lots of mods
Joined
·
104 Posts
I like mental exercises and it's how I think about things I haven't yet experienced myself, trying to elucidate the chain of causation, how one thing affects another, down the line, but there are also black boxes in the causality chain that are hidden variables, plus the real world doesn't always operate to over-simplified theories - for example I don't take into account chassis flex, or how the stability control operates and whether or not the suspension changes exceed the parameters it expects - but:

The stability control is expected to work in snow and ice, gravel, different traction surfaces, within limits whose boundaries I don't really know, but it takes into account steering angle and various sensors.

If there were no stability control and brake based torque vectoring, it's relatively straightforward that stiffening the rear will make it more prone to swing around. Since our cars are heavily understeer prone, the question is how much extra stiffness will still maintain safe understeer vs oversteer. And this varies by how sharp one is turning, whether one is braking or accelerating, the surface, etc.

The worst case scenario is entering a corner too fast, turning sharply and then braking. This will put weight on the front tires, unload the rears, and the rear can swing around.

In the Moose Test, when they make the test swerve, they lift throttle on corner entry but do not brake. There is such a thing as lift throttle oversteer - it's not as bad as braking in the middle of a corner but it does shift weight and traction towards the front of the vehicle as speed is scrubbed off by the front tires. Then after recovery they do brake.

I have also read that the moose test is conducted with weights in the car to simulate passengers and cargo at the car's load limit.



It's safe to assume that the Gen 5 and Gen 6 Outbacks both have significant understeer built in, and the stability control is used to reduce understeer but not so much as to induce oversteer, but hopefully it also intervenes to prevent oversteer. Each wheel is braked independently. But these interventions can only go so far. In moose tests of Subaru Forester vs other AWD SUVs, the stability control scrubbed off a lot of speed in others but the Subaru it did so minimally.

In my street-testing of the Whiteline 20mm sway bar, I used both the soft setting, and the hard setting. I drove sharp corners down hill and purposely braked mid corner even if it was off camber to try to induce the rear sliding out. But these were on dry roads at 30 mph. The rear did not slide out at all with either stiffness settings. I lack the facilities to safely test this at high speed or on wet roads.

In the context of the real-world experience of dozens of forum members with stiff rear sway bars on Gen 2, 3, 4, 5 outbacks, oversteer does not seem to be a common problem, although one member did have this happen to his wife on a wet road. That's why even though I don't own a Gen 5 I urge people to choose the 19mm instead of the thicker options, or maybe even the 18mm so that the car isn't shifted too much towards oversteer. In my mind you want the minimum amount of extra stiffness that will achieve responsive cornering.

Because the Whiteline 20mm sway bar adds length to the lever arm, napkin calculations put it at the equivalent stiffness of a 19.5mm rear sway bar on the soft setting, and around 21mm on the hard setting.

I found the soft setting to achieve excellent responsiveness without harshness and was surprised at how much worse the stiff setting felt, without increasing control.

Would an even thinner rear sway bar - say 18mm equivalent work just as well? I don't know but we don't have that option right now. I can say that I have increased rear sway bar stiffness in two previous Subarus (Legacy GT Wagon and WRX) but only by 2mm and the change was subtle not dramatic. Our sway bars, though 19mm are hollow and have the stiffness of a solid 16mm bar, so we're effectively going from a solid 16mm bar to a solid 19.5mm bar in stiffness and the improvement surprised me.

So back to the original question - would our cars fail the moose test with the thicker sway bar, oversteering the way certain sports cars do when tested? I don't think so. Even with the Whiteline rear sway bar I think the car still has intrinsic understeer - it's not oversteer happy - but that is not to say that the car can't oversteer. Any car can, with the right confluence of factors.

You always have the best write-ups. Respect.

looking forward to getting my rear sway bar and feeling the difference.
 

·
Registered
2021 Outback Touring XT
Joined
·
30 Posts
Received this nice email a couple of hours ago:
Hello,
Thank you for your participation in the Subaru Outback rear sway bar Group Buy. Working with a great community of car enthusiasts like this brings great joy to me personally and I can safely say this has been the biggest group buy for us ever in the history of the company.

Just this week our factory packed up and shipped over half of the bars that were ordered. I was told there was a slight issue with the sway bar bushing molds that affected the remaining bars from being packed up. These will be shipping out next week if everything goes as planned.

Current shipping times from our overseas factory is approximately 30 days, however the local port issues have still not been resolved and there are still backlogs of cargo ships waiting to unload. Some of them I have heard sit upwards to a month!

Things are looking better on the horizon though, on Monday, January 10th, our CA Gov. Gavin Newsom unveiled his 2022-2023 state budget proposal which includes a planned record investment of $2.3 billion for California ports to address the bottleneck in our countries supply chain.

My current estimate is that we will be receiving the container with these bars here around end of February and our customers will start seeing their bars delivered into early March. I’ll be monitoring this very closely and report back any potential delays that might come up. Let’s hope that isn’t the case though.

For anyone who can’t wait for the bars to arrive, we completely understand and can issue immediate refund. Just reply back to this email with your order number so I can assist. We won’t be able to offer this same deal again though if you decide to change your mind as stock is very limited right now and there is already a standby list of customers who weren’t able to get into the group buy that are looking for a spot.

As always I am here to help answer any other questions you may have.

Kind regards,

Joel Butzlaff
Sales Support Manager
 
241 - 260 of 271 Posts
Top