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2018 Magnetite Gray 3.6R Limited
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I know some folks that worked for domestic and import factories here in the US and the cost for a base model was sometimes barely profitable. However, the upgraded model trims can be a 5X difference between the additional cost to build the vehicle and the increased sales price.

Even today the total mfg cost for a Colorado truck and a full size are not that far apart, but the retail prices are vastly different. A larger piece of steel is not that much more costly, as the bending, folding, painting, etc are the larger expenses. however the two models can be priced at a 2:1 ratio when the cost is more like 1.2:1...

At another manufacturer, years ago, a couple of folks we knew from Ford told us they sold their entry level Escorts for roughly cost, because they needed them to raise their CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) numbers so their Lincoln car models could be sold for much fatter profits. overall they made more money that way, or at least that was their belief. That is just a business surfing the ocean waves as they arrive since they couldn't change the waves.

It is more about what you will pay than what it costs to make....
 

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2020 Onyx
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Or start an aftermarket company that specializes in retrofitting options into cars that didn't come with it and aren't available from the manufacturer.
 

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It’s not shifting responsibility or being silly. On one trail my xmode turned off over 10 times bc of the over 25 limit (constantly having to look down and turn it back on is honestly a major safety issue when off-roading). In that same trip I drove thru snow and even though I made it the dual xmode would have come in handy. Keep in mind Subaru provided a software patch for the auto start stop feature because they got so many complaints about it. So the new software created a button/switch right on the home screen instead of having to go thru several different steps. So consumers demanded a software patch and it was offered free of charge. Is it really unrealistic for them to offer a patch that I am willing to pay $1,000 for? And your point about other manufacturers doesn’t hold up in this case because subarus off-road mode is all software and is not mechanically engaged such as 4H and 4L on 4runners, Jeep’s, etc.

Also, before confidently dismissing my line of questioning, maybe you should re-examine the power you readily surrender to corporations instead of critically thinking cost effective consumer friendly solutions that they could be taking for your benefit and asking for change. The status quo of this wildly imbalanced company consumer relationship could use some new perspectives.
So you're comparing a button change for a feature that comes on all trims to a defining feature of a trim?
I don't surrender any power - no one does, you can choose not to buy the vehicle if you don't like the way they do business.

Why would bring Jeeps or 4Runners into this? Find me a manufacture that has a software based feature in a higher trim, that lets you buy a lower trim and just pay to upgrade.

I'll wait.

Seriously your post makes you come off as a very entitled person.
 

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Outback 2011 3.6R Premium
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Watching this topic very closely, let’s keep it civil or the topic will be closed and members moderated if required

Seagrass
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
So you're comparing a button change for a feature that comes on all trims to a defining feature of a trim?
I don't surrender any power - no one does, you can choose not to buy the vehicle if you don't like the way they do business.

Why would bring Jeeps or 4Runners into this? Find me a manufacture that has a software based feature in a higher trim, that lets you buy a lower trim and just pay to upgrade.

I'll wait.

Seriously your post makes you come off as a very entitled person.
Yes because until the wilderness the dual xmode feature was only offered on one trim for both the forester and outback, which is asinine. So if you buy an outback touring xt you don’t have the off road functionality of the onyx which is two trims below (same for the forester). What if you want the luxury features of the limited and touring xts, but want to go off the beaten path fairly regularly? It makes no sense. The multi-terrain selector in a 4runner for example is offered on 4-5 different trims instead of just 1 mid level trim.

And to your point about finding a company that offers software upgrades after purchase- BMW started this in 2020, and I’m sure there are others (I know Tesla does as well) but this is simply the first one I found.
 

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Yes because until the wilderness the dual xmode feature was only offered on one trim for both the forester and outback, which is asinine. So if you buy an outback touring xt you don’t have the off road functionality of the onyx which is two trims below (same for the forester). What if you want the luxury features of the limited and touring xts, but want to go off the beaten path fairly regularly? It makes no sense. The multi-terrain selector in a 4runner for example is offered on 4-5 different trims instead of just 1 mid level trim.

And to your point about finding a company that offers software upgrades after purchase- BMW started this in 2020, and I’m sure there are others (I know Tesla does as well) but this is simply the first one I found.
You should read the article not the title.

Just a small excerpt:

"In the near future, you could get a heated steering wheel in your BMW through a software download. Then, a year or two later, if you decide that you no longer need the feature you can unsubscribe and stop paying for it."

"Owners could buy these options for fixed periods of time almost like they were apps. In one example BMW provided, an owner could pay for heated seats for three years, the period of time the owner expected to have the vehicle. The next owner could then decide whether to pay for the seat heaters to work. "

So now the cost of vehicles goes up for everyone. To have the flexibility to do that, the parts have to be there, so in that one example you pay for heated steering wheel even if you never subscribe to it.

Now take 5 or 6 software options- all the necessary parts needed to be in the car- you think BMW is going to give them to you for free?
So you've paid for the parts, now you get to pay monthly to use the parts.

For someone that is so pro consumer the fact that you're applauding subscription based cars features is puzzling to me.
 

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2020 Outback Touring XT, in Crystal White Pearl
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There may be multiple issues with upgrading to the Wilderness version of dual X-mode, but maybe it is more reasonable to put the Onyx version of dual X-mode onto a non-Onyx car. The main issue might be whether all of the FW updates/changes are something that can be downloaded via USB, similar to the process for updating the head unit's software/firmware. Or, are there things "buried" into some stand-alone controller module, such that a module replacement would be needed?

I think that there is a decent chance that upgrading to the Onyx-style dual X-mode is feasible, IF Subaru wanted to do it. But for marketing reasons, and positioning of the various trim levels (as well as other things like training of dealer staff), it may not be worth it, or even desirable, from SoA's point of view.....
 

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2020 Onyx
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hat they have for ove
I know some folks that worked for domestic and import factories here in the US and the cost for a base model was sometimes barely profitable. However, the upgraded model trims can be a 5X difference between the additional cost to build the vehicle and the increased sales price.

Even today the total mfg cost for a Colorado truck and a full size are not that far apart, but the retail prices are vastly different. A larger piece of steel is not that much more costly, as the bending, folding, painting, etc are the larger expenses. however the two models can be priced at a 2:1 ratio when the cost is more like 1.2:1...

At another manufacturer, years ago, a couple of folks we knew from Ford told us they sold their entry level Escorts for roughly cost, because they needed them to raise their CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) numbers so their Lincoln car models could be sold for much fatter profits. overall they made more money that way, or at least that was their belief. That is just a business surfing the ocean waves as they arrive since they couldn't change the waves.

It is more about what you will pay than what it costs to make....
I called SOA about this and educated the rep as he didnt think Onyx shut off at 25 mph, I called out the exact page in the manual to him where it spells that out. That being said he submitted my software enhancement request to Subaru (not sure it will go anywhere) but he said "they do take the requests seriously". You dont need the wilderness CVT to tell Onyx DO NOT SHUT OFF XMODE AT 25 MPH. I already have the tires, lift/Ironman ATS, rims, I only want to get out of where I might be stuck effectively!
 

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2020 Onyx
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I think what the wilderness does is shut off X mode above 25 and then automatically re-enable it below 25. I don't think it's an actual high speed x-mode.
 

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The dual mode x-mode does sound more reasonable to have available - the onyx shares the same TCM with the limited and touring XT trims. The Wilderness is it’s very own part.

Not sure how involved that change would be, and would it be compatible with the non 2.4T TCMs on the TR580 transmissions?

That would be a fun hack… get the onyx dual mode x-mode to work on a Subaru Legacy…. Swap out the TCM (and possibly other parts) and do some magic…
 

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I called SOA about this and educated the rep as he didnt think Onyx shut off at 25 mph, I called out the exact page in the manual to him where it spells that out. That being said he submitted my software enhancement request to Subaru (not sure it will go anywhere) but he said "they do take the requests seriously". You dont need the wilderness CVT to tell Onyx DO NOT SHUT OFF XMODE AT 25 MPH. I already have the tires, lift/Ironman ATS, rims, I only want to get out of where I might be stuck effectively!
Unfortunately the number of people that complained about stop/start, and got SoA to program a new button on the main screen, probably greatly exceed the number of people complaining about XMODE shut off at 25mph. But this is absolutely a start! We just need to get every Gen 6 owner to complain about XMODE!

I actually did mention the XMODE shutoff on an SoA survey in 2019 so I'd like to think that I'm responsible for this feature on the Wilderness model. 😆 You're welcome Wilderness owners!
 

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@Ben Wyatt My guess is you weren't a Business Major when you learned all of those big words like unethical, irresponsible, and dishonest. :)

As risk averse you are, imagine being liable for ten of thousands of cars. If Subaru actually made the option backwards compatible (never happen), the car would fall out of how it was originally designed and certified by the (USA, Canad a, Australia, the EU, Japan, China, etc) and would open them to all sorts of unpleasant legal action. Would you sign a waver saying if anything bad happened after the install you, or future owners of you car, won't sue? And if you did, we all know it wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.

The car is not like a phone, were you can download the latest emojis. Staying with the phone analogy for a moment, how many stories have you read where someone complains that the latest software update messed up or even bricked their phone? Hasn't been a real issue lately, but it happens.

Subaru (and every other manufacture) is in the business of selling new cars. There is zero incentive to invest in making something retrofit, especially if it isn't just software as discovered much earlier in this thread (additional sensor(s) and front and rear differential gear changes), for maybe 500 customers?

It would actually be irresponsible for Subaru to do so, as they have to answer to their stockholders.
 
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