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2018 3.6r Touring, Black, modifications: 255-55-zr18 Continental DWS06
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A few head units got bricked in 2018.



Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I called SOA about this and educated the rep as he didnt think Onyx shut off at 25 mph, I called out the exact page in the manual to him where it spells that out. That being said he submitted my software enhancement request to Subaru (not sure it will go anywhere) but he said "they do take the requests seriously". You dont need the wilderness CVT to tell Onyx DO NOT SHUT OFF XMODE AT 25 MPH. I already have the tires, lift/Ironman ATS, rims, I only want to get out of where I might be stuck effectively!
This is awesome thank you for submitting the request! I will do the same since the rep I spoke with did not mention that this was an option. Thanks for the heads up
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Unfortunately the number of people that complained about stop/start, and got SoA to program a new button on the main screen, probably greatly exceed the number of people complaining about XMODE shut off at 25mph. But this is absolutely a start! We just need to get every Gen 6 owner to complain about XMODE!

I actually did mention the XMODE shutoff on an SoA survey in 2019 so I'd like to think that I'm responsible for this feature on the Wilderness model. 😆 You're welcome Wilderness owners!
If enough people bring it up to Subaru change may happen. Thanks for getting the ball rolling
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
@Ben Wyatt My guess is you weren't a Business Major when you learned all of those big words like unethical, irresponsible, and dishonest. :)

As risk averse you are, imagine being liable for ten of thousands of cars. If Subaru actually made the option backwards compatible (never happen), the car would fall out of how it was originally designed and certified by the (USA, Canad a, Australia, the EU, Japan, China, etc) and would open them to all sorts of unpleasant legal action. Would you sign a waver saying if anything bad happened after the install you, or future owners of you car, won't sue? And if you did, we all know it wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.

The car is not like a phone, were you can download the latest emojis. Staying with the phone analogy for a moment, how many stories have you read where someone complains that the latest software update messed up or even bricked their phone? Hasn't been a real issue lately, but it happens.

Subaru (and every other manufacture) is in the business of selling new cars. There is zero incentive to invest in making something retrofit, especially if it isn't just software as discovered much earlier in this thread (additional sensor(s) and front and rear differential gear changes), for maybe 500 customers?

It would actually be irresponsible for Subaru to do so, as they have to answer to their stockholders.
Man if I had a nickel for every time a business major or entrepreneur adopted a condescending tone during a discussion about business or economics I could just buy a new wilderness tomorrow. I am well aware of the different issues you brought up but…

1) Car companies do software patches all the time just as phones companies do (Subaru did one for the xt ob models in 2020 to address acceleration issues). Since Tesla can do them remotely they do consistent software updates and yet they seem to be doing alright atop the auto industry.

2) As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would gladly pay for the extra sensor in order to make the update happen, and we do not have a conclusive answer as to whether the 25+ update would require any additional changes (some in this thread have said yes, others no). But we know dual xmode would be an easy install given it is offered on two different models and engine types yet it still is unavailable unless you decide to trade in your car. And keep in mind (before you jump to “we’ll you should have bought that trim in the first place”, Subaru only offered dual xmode on one mid level trim for both ob and forester which means in order to get xmode you have to sacrifice a whole host of other key features (if they just offered it on mid-upper trims to start we wouldn’t be having this debate). Also, I think a few more than 500 Subaru owners would like more off road capability.

3) I am not arguing against Subaru being in the business of making money. I am just arguing against the basic joint-stock business model that has become gospel since the colonial days, the model that is currently standing in the way of easy progress. Why should I not have the option to pay for a simple software update that makes my car safer for my family and I? To ensure that wealthy Subaru investors can make even more money by forcing myself and others to buy a new trim? That is a perfect example of unethical business practices. Unfortunately, those business school classes prioritize models that are solely profitable, not ones that emphasize profitability AND ethical standards (look at the energy sector, manufacturing, etc etc etc). So it’s not that I don’t understand how economics or business works, it’s that I don’t agree with the implications of these practices when investor $ is placed > safety, cost to consumer, environmental responsibility, and innovation. I just wish that Subaru, which sells itself as the ethical outdoors car company, did a little more to hold up that ethos. That’s all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Anyway, thank you to everyone for the insights and/or suggestions about how to proceed. I will definitely submit a formal request as mentioned by a few other commenters and hopefully we’ll have a patch to buy in a year or two!
 

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Man if I had a nickel for every time a business major or entrepreneur adopted a condescending tone during a discussion about business or economics I could just buy a new wilderness tomorrow. I am well aware of the different issues you brought up but…

1) Car companies do software patches all the time just as phones companies do (Subaru did one for the xt ob models in 2020 to address acceleration issues). Since Tesla can do them remotely they do consistent software updates and yet they seem to be doing alright atop the auto industry.

2) As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would gladly pay for the extra sensor in order to make the update happen, and we do not have a conclusive answer as to whether the 25+ update would require any additional changes (some in this thread have said yes, others no). But we know dual xmode would be an easy install given it is offered on two different models and engine types yet it still is unavailable unless you decide to trade in your car. And keep in mind (before you jump to “we’ll you should have bought that trim in the first place”, Subaru only offered dual xmode on one mid level trim for both ob and forester which means in order to get xmode you have to sacrifice a whole host of other key features (if they just offered it on mid-upper trims to start we wouldn’t be having this debate).

3) I am not arguing against Subaru being in the business of making money. I am just arguing against the basic joint-stock business model that has become gospel since the colonial days, the model that is currently standing in the way of easy progress. Why should I not have the option to pay for a simple software update that makes my car safer for my family and I? To ensure that wealthy Subaru investors can make even more money? That is a perfect example of unethical business practices. Unfortunately, those business school classes prioritize models that are solely profitable, not ones that emphasize profitability AND ethical standards (look at the energy sector, manufacturing, etc etc etc). So it’s not that I don’t understand how economics or business works, it’s that I don’t agree with the implications of these practices when investor $ is placed > safety, cost to consumer, environmental responsibility, and innovation. I just wish that Subaru, which sells itself as the ethical outdoors car company, did a little more to hold up that ethos. That’s all.
Hehehe - if you listened as well as you typed, this thread would be a lot shorter. A business major was the last thing in my studies, however in addition to not understanding the fundamentals of how the car manufacturing business works, you are probably not an automotive engineer either.

It takes around a million dollars to certify every drivetrain variant with the EPA. If Subaru were to change the gearing on your car as part of an upgrade, the modification would need to be retested and approved by the EPA (and Canada, the EU, etc etc). How many customers do you think would go for this at a $1,000 a pop? In addition to paying for the R&D to do it, who pays the dealer tech the shop rate and parts to do it? $1,000 wouldn't even cover the front and rear gears, much less anything else.

New cars, with new features are introduced every model year. The manufacture owes you nothing in regards to buyer's remorse. If you bought a new cell phone just before the new one was announced with a better camera, are you owed anything if you want the better camera?

Cheers!🍻

Edited by moderator to remove the personal attack
 

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I'm skeptical when someone puts on their consumer advocate anti-corporate hat only when it's something that they want, and doubly so when it's a luxury like "high speed x-mode" or "dual x-mode". If you needed that capability then you bought the wrong car. You could have waited until a car came along to tick all your boxes. You may think that Subaru is sitting on a pile of cash and hoarding it out of greed, but I assure you that they're fighting for survival. They're not rolling in the dough.

I get it when people get upset that Subaru eyesight malfunctions, or their transmission fails early. When you buy a vehicle or whatever it is, you expect that it will perform the advertised functions.

When you bought your car, it came with whatever it was supposed to come with. There was no bait and switch or anything unethical.

We all have things we think Subaru could do different - for me it's having all of their tires have a three peak mountain snowflake rating to match their claimed all-weather capability, or putting a full size spare in all Outbacks, or offering the turbo in a base model without pushbutton start, without power liftgate, or other amenities that I don't need, or perhaps having a sports mode, or a manual transmission option, or offering a Legacy GT Wagon again - or a WRX Hatchback again. But these are just consumer desires, nothing to get outraged about because Subaru won't make things exactly the way I want it to be.

Giving Subaru feedback on consumer wants is fine, but there's no need for torches and pitchforks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
You should read the article not the title.

Just a small excerpt:

"In the near future, you could get a heated steering wheel in your BMW through a software download. Then, a year or two later, if you decide that you no longer need the feature you can unsubscribe and stop paying for it."

"Owners could buy these options for fixed periods of time almost like they were apps. In one example BMW provided, an owner could pay for heated seats for three years, the period of time the owner expected to have the vehicle. The next owner could then decide whether to pay for the seat heaters to work. "

So now the cost of vehicles goes up for everyone. To have the flexibility to do that, the parts have to be there, so in that one example you pay for heated steering wheel even if you never subscribe to it.

Now take 5 or 6 software options- all the necessary parts needed to be in the car- you think BMW is going to give them to you for free?
So you've paid for the parts, now you get to pay monthly to use the parts.

For someone that is so pro consumer the fact that you're applauding subscription based cars features is puzzling to me.
Way to shift the argument and then claim the win (while conveniently not addressing the bulk of my response). The debate was whether car companies offer software updates, to which I proved that they do. If you don’t like the way BMW does it (and I get the points you made, but again, the disagreement was solely about whether companies offer paid updates at all), then how about Tesla? Also, as I said previously I would happily pay for the extra sensor needed for the 25+ xmode, so no I don’t expect Subaru to give me the parts for free or have them pre-loaded, I intend to pay for them. The whole point of this thread was to dissect the notion that we should be expected to trade in our cars for features that Subaru can just offer via software patch or update (I acknowledged repeatedly that 25+ xmode would potentially be tricky or not work, but dual xmode is a seamless install). But this is not surprising since you entered the fray with snide remarks such as calling me entitled (how, if I am asking for the opportunity to pay for these features, not asking them to be freely given?), or very confidently stating that NO companies offer software patches, and then proceeded to try and create an entirely new argument for the win and some likes. So I’ll leave it here and you can continue thinking you owned me since that’s seems to be your goal. Have a good one ✌
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
I'm skeptical when someone puts on their consumer advocate anti-corporate hat only when it's something that they want, and doubly so when it's a luxury like "high speed x-mode" or "dual x-mode". If you needed that capability then you bought the wrong car. You could have waited until a car came along to tick all your boxes. You may think that Subaru is sitting on a pile of cash and hoarding it out of greed, but I assure you that they're fighting for survival. They're not rolling in the dough.

I get it when people get upset that Subaru eyesight malfunctions, or their transmission fails early. When you buy a vehicle or whatever it is, you expect that it will perform the advertised functions.

When you bought your car, it came with whatever it was supposed to come with. There was no bait and switch or anything unethical.

We all have things we think Subaru could do different - for me it's having all of their tires have a three peak mountain snowflake rating to match their claimed all-weather capability, or putting a full size spare in all Outbacks, or offering the turbo in a base model without pushbutton start, without power liftgate, or other amenities that I don't need, or perhaps having a sports mode, or a manual transmission option, or offering a Legacy GT Wagon again - or a WRX Hatchback again. But these are just consumer desires, nothing to get outraged about because Subaru won't make things exactly the way I want it to be.

Giving Subaru feedback on consumer wants is fine, but there's no need for torches and pitchforks.
Trust me I wish I had the time to wait for the wilderness when I got my ob, but my timeline did not allow for that.

I’m submitting a request and created a thread to brainstorm solutions or ask why this isn’t offered, hardly torches and pitch forms.
 

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Several members have sold their 2020/2021 Outbacks and bought the Wilderness because it better met their needs. Used car prices are good now and people aren't losing too much in making the switch.

My reference to pitchforks was when words like

Either way, this type of practice it’s unethical (pushes consumers to risk 3rd party tinkering), irresponsible (needlessly uses a lot of resources), and downright dishonest.
Which to me was excessive blaming and shaming of Subaru when Subaru is not at fault here. They did no wrong. When something is new and improved then there is no obligation or expectations to offer it as a retrofit. In 2023 Eyesight X is probably coming out.

If you want the features of a Wilderness then buy one. Your economic situation or job timeline is not Subaru's fault.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Hehehe - if you listened as well as you typed, this thread would be a lot shorter. A business major was the last thing in my studies, however in addition to not understanding the fundamentals of how the car manufacturing business works, you are probably not an automotive engineer either.

It takes around a million dollars to certify every drivetrain variant with the EPA. If Subaru were to change the gearing on your car as part of an upgrade, the modification would need to be retested and approved by the EPA (and Canada, the EU, etc etc). How many customers do you think would go for this at a $1,000 a pop? In addition to paying for the R&D to do it, who pays the dealer tech the shop rate and parts to do it? $1,000 wouldn't even cover the front and rear gears, much less anything else.

New cars, with new features are introduced every model year. The manufacture owes you nothing in regards to buyer's remorse. If you bought a new cell phone just before the new one was announced with a better camera, are you owed anything if you want the better camera?

My guess is if business experts universally take a condescending tone with you, perhaps it has something to do with your sanctimonious approach 🤷‍♂️

Cheers!🍻
Few things-
1) Thousands of ob owners pay a lot more than $1,000 for mods to their cars. So yes I think there is a large market for this.
2) Apples and oranges my friend. A phone camera is something that is physical/mechanical compared to a digital software update such as dual xmode. Also, a phone camera is not integral for safety, but having more capability on trails or not having to constantly look away from the road to turn xmode back on, is a major safety issue.
3) You take issue with my “sanctimonious” approach (because ethics, safety, and the environment are preachy?) but don’t address the ethics of having tech that can easily improve the safety of someone’s vehicle but intentionally withholds it for money. If you support that business dynamic then hey more power to ya. But we’re not talking about heated seats here, literally a matter of driving with your eyes on the road vs fidgeting.

Cheers 🍻 P.S. this all may come off as very passive aggressive (and eh I gotta admit at least 20% is) but the vast majority of it is just the back and forth nature of text based debate. I would genuinely enjoy debating this with you and lightheartedly trading jabs over a drink if this were in person. All the best ✌
 

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Way to shift the argument and then claim the win (while conveniently not addressing the bulk of my response). The debate was whether car companies offer software updates, to which I proved that they do. If you don’t like the way BMW does it (and I get the points you made, but again, the disagreement was solely about whether companies offer paid updates at all), then how about Tesla? Also, as I said previously I would happily pay for the extra sensor needed for the 25+ xmode, so no I don’t expect Subaru to give me the parts for free or have them pre-loaded, I intend to pay for them. The whole point of this thread was to dissect the notion that we should be expected to trade in our cars for features that Subaru can just offer via software patch or update (I acknowledged repeatedly that 25+ xmode would potentially be tricky or not work, but dual xmode is a seamless install). But this is not surprising since you entered the fray with snide remarks such as calling me entitled (how, if I am asking for the opportunity to pay for these features, not asking them to be freely given?), or very confidently stating that NO companies offer software patches, and then proceeded to try and create an entirely new argument for the win and some likes. So I’ll leave it here and you can continue thinking you owned me since that’s seems to be your goal. Have a good one ✌
Yet you keep trying to compare apples with oranges. I could careless about likes on some forum, I don't know any of these people.
Entitlement has nothing to do with it being free. You feel you should be entitled to something they don't offer. That's pretty simple and straightforward.

Telsa hasn't made a dime selling cars, so lets not use them as an example of anything automotive. If you insist, lets talk about how they remove features that people pay for. Would you be ok if Subaru removed features from your car?

So back to what your point, please list a company that lets you upgrade to individual features from higher trims that aren't pushing a subscription model.

Heck I'd love it if we went back to the days I could pick and choose a bunch of individual options instead of packages, but that's not how it's done now and I don't expect to be offered that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Several members have sold their 2020/2021 Outbacks and bought the Wilderness because it better met their needs. Used car prices are good now and people aren't losing too much in making the switch.

My reference to pitchforks was when words like



Which to me was excessive blaming and shaming of Subaru when Subaru is not at fault here. They did no wrong. When something is new and improved then there is no obligation or expectations to offer it as a retrofit. In 2023 Eyesight X is probably coming out.

If you want the features of a Wilderness then buy one. Your economic situation or job timeline is not Subaru's fault.
I get your point, I really do. But ultimately those owners are still taking a several thousand dollar (likely over $10k) hit to get the wilderness. Plus there’s the mircochip shortage, my dealer isn’t expecting new wilderness’ to arrive for another 2 months and they were preordered.

I understand what you’re saying here as well but I stand by those statements. In my mind a pitch forky statement would be something like “F subaru this is bs!” Instead, I am calling out the hypocrisy of being the environmental car company but then asking current owners to upgrade to the new trim (this uses a lot of additional resources and squeezes more money out of loyal customers off of trade ins) for something that can be upgraded digitally. To me this is unethical and irresponsible, especially considering owners have been begging Subaru for yeeears to come out with an off-road model/trim and it took them until 2021. Better late than never, but that doesn’t do much for the rest of us who don’t feel like lining investor pockets to being a new car for a software patch. Yes, that may be how business is done. But does that mean we just have to keep hopping on the merry go round instead of offering possible solutions? Granted, I will fully admit that I let my frustration get the better of me at times in this thread, but that doesn’t invalidate my points or my premise. Have a good night (assuming you’re in the US, there’s a few aussies on here lol)!
 

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Few things-
1) Thousands of ob owners pay a lot more than $1,000 for mods to their cars. So yes I think there is a large market for this.
2) Apples and oranges my friend. A phone camera is something that is physical/mechanical compared to a digital software update such as dual xmode. Also, a phone camera is not integral for safety, but having more capability on trails or not having to constantly look away from the road to turn xmode back on, is a major safety issue.
3) You take issue with my “sanctimonious” approach (because ethics, safety, and the environment are preachy?) but don’t address the ethics of having tech that can easily improve the safety of someone’s vehicle but intentionally withholds it for money. If you support that business dynamic then hey more power to ya. But we’re not talking about heated seats here, literally a matter of driving with your eyes on the road vs fidgeting.

Cheers 🍻 P.S. this all may come off as very passive aggressive (and eh I gotta admit at least 20% is) but the vast majority of it is just the back and forth nature of text based debate. I would genuinely enjoy debating this with you and lightheartedly trading jabs over a drink if this were in person. All the best ✌
Glad you like to debate, but trying to tell Subaru (and us) what is easy to do, without any understanding of what it takes to, you know, actually do it, is less argumentative and quite frankly, more troll like. All of your points have been addressed and rebuffed. I get, and respect that you don't like the answers, and like to challenge "no, can't be done." However, if you want to be very specific, it's not exactly eco-friendly to go bashing around the underbrush faster than 25 mph anyway.

It has nothing to do with safety, nothing to do with making more or less money for the stakeholders, it has to do with smart business practices. Investing millions into something that would never (ever ever) turn a profit just isn't smart. You keep conveniently forgetting the portion of the discussion where the software needs different gearing and at least one additional sensor.

Just to beat the dead horse a little more, just where does the sensor go? Is the wiring already run inside the transmission (or where ever it goes) just ready to plug in? Is the ECU equipped to handle the additional input and can change the speedometer and odometer to compensate for the different gears? Are you sure "1,000s" are lined up to lower their fuel economy and increase emissions? And, just for fun: is it morally/ethically responsible for Subaru to create a car that gets less MPG, much less retrofit others to pollute more?
 

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So X-mode with traction control off is reportedly similar if not identical to X-mode 2 aka deep snow and mud. You can call up X-mode in the top of the center display to make it very easy to turn back on if it has disengaged above 20-25 or whatever.

Try this: call up X-mode on top of the center stack, engage it, go above 25 and see what happens. I suspect it will shut off, but what happens when you slow down again? I don't know because I haven't tried this myself. Besides, if you're traveling over 25mph, isn't Subaru's normal awd good enough?

I have seen X-mode gray out meaning I can't select it above a certain speed, but other than that I am not overly concerned because a Subaru will never be a truck with true 4x4, but a Subaru is great for what it is. As others have said in this thread, if you really want the features of an Onyx or Wilderness, buy one. I'm happy with my Premium and a full size spare. Yes, I'd be even happier with dual X-mode in the Onyx and whatever you call the new X-mode in the Wilderness, but if I were spending that much money I'd probably just buy an Ascent or something else instead.
 

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I believe this topic has run its course and the back and forth bickering by a few members leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks to the members who tried to calm things down and get the topic back on course.

This topic is now being closed.
 
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