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Walnut-blasting?
well, that might be part of what's in it... but mainly any statement as to why it's a problem (based on subaru's claims of the effectiveness of their design in avoiding this problem in the first place), the symptoms they list, when they'd do this, what cars/years are explicitly listed in there, what procedures they'd use, how many hours labor would be billed, any other information they put in there.

Processes and procedures are what I was curious about.
 
Most of my driving to date (about 27k miles) has been fairly long drives - my daily commute is 35 miles each way. So my engine has plenty of time to fully warm up, each drive. But when I retire, later this year, that will change.... So I have some concern about oil dilution and/or carbon build-up, once I am doing more short drives.

On more of a big picture level, I think some companies will migrate from DI to a sort of hybrid solution, with both DI and port injection, so they will get some degree of "washing" down the back side of the valves from the port injection portion of the fuel flow, while also getting most of the performance advantages of DI. Isn't that what Toyota is doing?

This is also a huge topic of discussion over at various Honda forums, and quite a few owners of Honda's with the 1.5T engine, as well as some with their 2.0T engine, have installed "catch cans" to collect fuel out of the oil..... I believe Subaru when they say that they have largely mitigated the issue, through some design "tricks" (so to speak). But it remains to be seen if it is totally addressed....
 
The problem with the CRC one I’ve heard is that if you have severe buildup, it won’t be effective enough, or a large chunk will break off into the engine.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Toyota and Ford have the dual injector system which uses port injection at times you’re idle or not needing the extra performance from direct injection.

I am not going to install my own catch can. If they add one in the future OEM designs, that’s fine, they can empty it when I bring it in for service.

Reference the giant oil change thread, more frequent oil changes would keep volatility/evaporative effects in check (NOACK) which could prevent it from happening. My wife’s Honda 3.5L in the Pilot says you must use top tier gas for a variety of reasons, carbon buildup included.
 
Most of my driving to date (about 27k miles) has been fairly long drives - my daily commute is 35 miles each way. So my engine has plenty of time to fully warm up, each drive. But when I retire, later this year, that will change.... So I have some concern about oil dilution and/or carbon build-up, once I am doing more short drives.

On more of a big picture level, I think some companies will migrate from DI to a sort of hybrid solution, with both DI and port injection, so they will get some degree of "washing" down the back side of the valves from the port injection portion of the fuel flow, while also getting most of the performance advantages of DI. Isn't that what Toyota is doing?

This is also a huge topic of discussion over at various Honda forums, and quite a few owners of Honda's with the 1.5T engine, as well as some with their 2.0T engine, have installed "catch cans" to collect fuel out of the oil..... I believe Subaru when they say that they have largely mitigated the issue, through some design "tricks" (so to speak). But it remains to be seen if it is totally addressed....
Correct, various automakers from Toyota (D4s) to VW (e.g. EU spec GTI) already do this primarily for emissions control reasons, but it just so happens to have another positive benefit in fuel washing the valves every once in a while.

Having driven a 2010 VW GTI to 175,000 miles with just 1 carbon cleaning (walnut blast at 110K when replacing faulty intake manifold) during it's time (while others had to do it every 40-60K), I can offer my routine as potentially a way to minimize buildup:

1.) Use a low or mid-SAPs oil if possible for your application. High-SAPs have the potential benefits of more protection at the cost of more sulfated ash which has been known to lend to carbon buildup. I always spent a bit more and used Ravenoel (true group V sythetic), mid-saps formula in this vehicle in 5W-40 flavor
2.) Once warm, this car saw full throttle daily on the highway. Nothing crazy, but I wasn't afraid to get the engine warm and seeing some higher RPMs. Those with worse carbon buildup issues tend to be stop and go, short-haul drivers.
3.) Kept oiled changed every 5-7K even though oil lubrication could've made it 15-20K easily. Might have thrown a bit of money away but peace of mind against fuel dilution and potential buildup.

Catch cans, while good at collecting some vapors/blowby, have not been shown to significantly reduce actual valve buildup in the VW world.

I went non-turbocharged on my Outback as it's my non-fun car and because I wanted less complexity. I'm certain N/A vehicles will suffer from less overall carbon buildup due difference in how air makes its way in, but I don't think we can avoid it completely.
 
well, I answered my own question.... the TSB 09-74-21R with the ridiculously long title of "Cleaning Procedure for Carbon Deposit Removal to Address Engine Misfire DTCs, Black Smoke from the Exhaust, Lack of Power, Knocking (Ping) and / or Rough Idle Concerns" is crazier than I thought it might be.

Sorry, no walnut shells in this one.

Instead, we use Genuine Subaru P.E.A. (Polyether Amine) Carbon Cleaner (p.n. SOA868V9166) and the “Carbon Clean Tool” applicator tools (p.n. SOA868V9430 or SOA868V9432)

Step one: remove the intake manifold and look for buildup, "Inspect inside the runners closely along with the cylinder head intake ports, plates and intake valves for any excessive
amount of carbon / soot accumulation. Clean any readily accessible components with carburetor / throttle plate cleaner prior to re-assembly." I guess excessive build up might be scraped off at this point? Maybe that's what they mean by clean with carburetor cleaner... scrape and spray. Dealer's choice on that one. After that, reassemble and road test... you need a working motor for the rest of it.

Step two: look for any DTCs and fix other stuff first so you aren't chasing a different problem, make sure the oil level is full, get the customer OK to fill the tank (it needs to be full for a later step)

Now the fun stuff:
the first part of the procedure is to log into the Subaru Select Monitor, and read a roughness counter. Now, right away, the procedure is confusing, as it says, in bold lettering, to only perform that for the 2.5 naturally aspirated motors only.... however, a later step in 4 pages says to compare "all other models" to the prior data from step 2... What they were trying to indicate here is that there is a specific limit (value) for roughness on the 2.5l motors... above that threshold perform the fix, below it don't - or - after cleaning it needs to be below that fix... the other models you "Verify the cleaning procedure results by confirming the 2 conditions below: Has the rough idle condition smoothed out? Have the Roughness Counter values become smaller than those recorded prior to performing the cleaning procedure?"

Next Step: after the first step of recording the roughness counter... if it's a value of 34 or more on 2.5l engines only, or any value for all other engines listed, pour one bottle of P.E.A into the fuel tank. Also, the fuel tank must be FULL.

Next step: you use the carbon clean tool and attach it to the purge port on the throttle body. This tool is a fancy hose and valve assembly... Now here is where it's amusing (to me at least): the flow rate is critical, and you can only achieve the critical rate by eyeballing the position of the valve at exactly 22 degrees... or wherever the flow rate is about 1 bottle of P.E.A per hour @ 2000 rpm as indicated from prior trial and error runs on other vehicles. Is 55 minutes "about" an hour where 50 is not? Maybe it's more 50 minutes is ok, but 20 is not. Dunno.

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moving on...

Next Step: burn that carbon off the spark plugs... italian tune up baby!

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Next Step: log back into SSM and look at the roughness data - here is where it clears up the first time you do this - you read the data, 2.5l motors the value needs to be below 34 for all cylinders, for all other motors it just needs to be smoother. How much smoother, no idea. Just smoother. If it's the first time you read the procedure and it's not a 2.5l motor, you probably skipped the first reading and will have no idea at this point if it's smoother based on the readout. The decision here would be interesting - call it done, or repeat the process as if it's not smoother?

Continuing this step: if it's not smoother, change the engine oil (but not the filter) and repeat the cleaning procedure a second time. There are four cleaning attempts total and the oil changes are only specified every 2 attempts (so before the second and the fourth attempt).

NOTE: there is a footnote there that indicates you don't repeat the step of adding more P.E.A to the fuel tank, but that isn't indicated in the main procedure steps to only add it once, so I could see more getting added if someone followed it line by line and didn't see the footnote.


Here are the claims information - gives you an idea of how long this can take:

The full procedure list.. note that one treatment is 7-7.6 hours, and four treatments would be 18.2-18.7 hours ... the intervals between cleaning attempts is 3.8 hours, then 3.5 hours, then 3.8 hours. That's because not every attempt has an oil change.

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this is for setup, inspection, things that aren't the full cleaning procedure... other line items that can get tacked on.
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maybe walnut shells would be easier.
 

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As previously stated , routine cleaning and more frequent oil changes are good preventative measures. I got my Ob at 80k miles and it pinged horribly at light throttle low load conditions which I thought very strange as it is opposite of most spark knock. New pvc ,spark plugs, air filter, o2 sensor, clean maf and tb and air intake temp sensor and no effect on pinging. I ran 91 octane to mitigate the problem. At 95k I pulled the intake and variable runner valves to see how much build-up was in there and clean. What a mess!! The injector spray area was pretty clean, but the whole intake was bad. I will never buy a di engine that does not also have injectors spraying on valves. I had to carb clean the manifold and push rags through the runners with a heater hose multiple times. Sprayed carb cleaner on valves and let it sit over night. This 2014 NA engine has the air tumble plates (removed in picture) right above valves, so nothing new there. I added an air/oil separator from Crawford performance, and put it back together with all new gaskets/orings and no more pinging with 87 oct. fuel, so unless I inadvertently repaired a vacuum leak, the carbon was the problem. I removed egr valve to clean and it was not very dirty. I also discovered an additional breather with a one way pvc type valve that ran from air baffle box to somewhere at timing cover under A/C compressor. All these carbon extractors need to be filtered in order to keep an engine clean. Runs like new now.
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Good news everyone! The carbon cleaning procedure now has a shorter claims information duration, so I guess it's less labor charged if you're out of warranty.

Some text was moved around, no longer a note section, it's in a process step now... I guess it wasn't clear enough that the intake manifold is removed and cleaned if needed. Other text was changed slightly to add emphasis (example "it is NOT necessary to add" becomes "Do NOT add").

One section with claims labor description/charges was removed entirely.

modified labor claim rates: quite a difference in some... shaved off 2, 3.5, 4.6, 7.4 hours in the first group, then 1.3, 2.3, 3.3 hours in the second group (yellow highlighted numbers). Quite a reduction in the first section - the DIT models only.

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Also, subaru added a jazzy new process flow diagram that mildly annoys me... I guess the written procedure was messy enough it needed this. At the very least label that unlabeled NO decision in the middle there.

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Overall just Subaru cleaning up the document to (sort of) provide more clarity.

Attached TSB dated 6/28/21
 

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Hi everyone, I have put 10000 miles on my OB xt, and did an oil change today by myself. I can smell gas when I pull out the dipstick and open the cap. And this oil pan is 7qt, I forgot to check the dipstick before I drain, so I think probably the old oil is larger than 4.8qt. Estimated old oil is around 5.2qt. I checked the oil cap, there is nothing abnormal, no white grease or anything. Previous oil change was done at dealer around 5200 miles. Any ideas about this?

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If your car takes 4.8 and 5.2 came out. You’re fine. As far as the gas smell you won’t be able to tell exactly where it’s coming from by sniffing around.
 
Dealerships have frequently (almost always?) been found to over-fill the vehicles at every oil change, anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 quart over.
 
Dealerships have frequently (almost always?) been found to over-fill the vehicles at every oil change, anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 quart over.
Yeah, maybe they just simply pour 5 bottles of 1qt 0w20. But what about the gas smell? The environment I live is cold, have a chance to produce the same problem like the Honda level up of the turbo engine.
 
I apologize for not reading the entire thread but yes direct injection, especially turbocharged ones, do tend to collect more gas in the oil with short trip or cold weather driving, so the owner's manual says that if you meet severe service conditions, oil should be changed every 3 months or 3000 miles whichever comes first. It's not so much that the base oil has oxidized, but that the byproducts of combustion accumulate under those conditions and changing the oil is simply purging the contaminants.

I smelled gas in my oil, sent it to Blackstone and although they don't do an actual measurement of gas in the oil, extrapolating from flashpoint they said that my oil didn't have enough fuel contamination to worry about. This was around 3000 mile 6 month old oil, in warm weather, almost exclusively short trip.

Oddly enough, it seems like my oil no longer smells so markedly of gas - but that's subjective on my part.
 
I apologize for not reading the entire thread but yes direct injection, especially turbocharged ones, do tend to collect more gas in the oil with short trip or cold weather driving, so the owner's manual says that if you meet severe service conditions, oil should be changed every 3 months or 3000 miles whichever comes first. It's not so much that the base oil has oxidized, but that the byproducts of combustion accumulate under those conditions and changing the oil is simply purging the contaminants.

I smelled gas in my oil, sent it to Blackstone and although they don't do an actual measurement of gas in the oil, extrapolating from flashpoint they said that my oil didn't have enough fuel contamination to worry about. This was around 3000 mile 6 month old oil, in warm weather, almost exclusively short trip.

Oddly enough, it seems like my oil no longer smells so markedly of gas - but that's subjective on my part.
No worry! Thank you for your information.
 
As others stated, don't believe your nose when it comes to fuel dilution in oil. My track car's oil stunk like fuel after a season. Sent it off to Blackstone and it all came back perfectly within specs. FWIW that engine was running perfectly fine and only driven in the summer for prolonged wide open throttle conditions.

The extra oil could be simply due to an initial over fill. Also don't trust the capacity of those drain pans. I had a pan that stated it held 7 quarts and when I dif my first oil change on my 3.6R half ended up all over my driveway.

Even the larger 11 quart pan I now have fills oddly to the top when I drain my 3.6r's oil. I suspect the measurements being advertised with these pans are highly over estimated.

Just make sure you get your car out for a longer drive on the highway once a week, especially in the winter. Or else change the oil early.
 
<< Dealerships have frequently (almost always?) been found to over-fill the vehicles at every oil change, anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 quart over. >>
100% true for every oil change in 2010 & 2015 2.5L OBs I have had done at 3 different dealer & one independent "Subarus Only" shop. My guess is either everyone just dumps in 5 qrts or the dipstick is wrong.

Thankfully l don't keep my cars long enough for the carbon build up but just in case I do the "Italian Tune-up" a couple of times / month just for fun :p
 
I lost my 3.6 around half a year ago and since then have been looking to find a new car that suits my needs.

I keep going around in circles and have realized that nothing compares to Subarus and I just want to get another outback.

I'm deciding between the normal 4 and the turbo. It would be nice to have similar power to what I had in the 6, but the added complexity and "inherent" issues with direct injection engines give me pause.

For instance, I don't want to have to worry about carbon build up or oil dilution etc and hear stories about people blasting walnuts into their engines or installing catch cans etc...

Am I making a big deal out of this, is it possible to get direct injection and turbo right and make it reliable with no carbon build up?
 
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