[Fvg45]

So I'm around my 30k mile mark on my car. I can do the air filter, cabin filter, etc., but I made an appointment for the dealership to just do a brake fluid flush and fluid replacement, and they are quoting me $140??? Is this normal? Seems very high to me. A local shop here can do it for $90, but not sure if I should stick to Subaru since they'd probably use the proper Subaru fluid for our cars.

Any thoughts on this?

Too high. The last time I had brake service at a local LEs Schwab tire shop done, they charged $60.

 

[Danver]

Too high. The last time I had brake service at a local LEs Schwab tire shop done, they charged $60.

They probably made enough to buy a new turkey baster for the part-time kid who comes in after school.

 

[kcy]

So I'm around my 30k mile mark on my car.....but not sure if I should stick to Subaru since they'd probably use the proper Subaru fluid for our cars.

Any thoughts on this?

Depending on the hourly rate at your dealership...yeah, $140 wouldn't surprise me. I personally wouldn't pay that, I'd do it myself, but that amount could be in the ballpark.

If you go to the local independent shop, they will probably use the correct DOT3 (or DOT 4 is you're currently using that). I don't think that's something you'd need to worry about. Especially if you clarify beforehand (in writing).

Just be sure they know that the correct Subaru bleed sequence is not the "standard," start farthest from the reservoir and work to the closest. They certainly have access to Suby FSM, but since a brake fluid replacement is "easy", I doubt they actually look at it when doing this service.

From the 2019 FSM (which, for this procedure, I'm sure would be the same for your '17), this is the correct bleed sequence:

(I don't think there'd be any substantial, detrimental effect of a less-than-optimal sequence, but why not do it correctly when you know it?)

 

[provels]

From the 2019 FSM (which, for this procedure, I'm sure would be the same for your '17), this is the correct bleed sequence:

View attachment 522093

(I don't think there'd be any substantial, detrimental effect of a less-than-optimal sequence, but why not do it correctly when you know it?)

From the '15 FSM... ¯\(ツ)/¯ Oddly the procedure changed to what you list for the '19 in 2016...

 

[Unibody62]

Just be sure they know that the correct Subaru bleed sequence is not the "standard," start farthest from the reservoir and work to the closest. They certainly have access to Suby FSM, but since a brake fluid replacement is "easy", I doubt they actually look at it when doing this service.

From the 2019 FSM (which, for this procedure, I'm sure would be the same for your '17), this is the correct bleed sequence:


(I don't think there'd be any substantial, detrimental effect of a less-than-optimal sequence, but why not do it correctly when you know it?)

Interesting about the sequence, does anyone know the logic? Are the lines routed differently than other cars, maybe something to do with the antilock braking system?


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[walker]

the 2019 FSM adds the note on the order twice in the section for the brake lines - each larger component of the system has it's own section on air bleeding... although in 2016 two of the 4 sections just refer to the brake line section.... the funniest thing is the order is a note section at the END of the procedure... in 2017 they added an additional order note farther up in the procedure, and that appears to be in the 2018 and 2019 manuals. Repeating the note didn't make it that much more obvious though.

No little diagram like the one posted- I suspect that comes from some third party manual. Helpful though.

2016:

Interesting about the sequence, does anyone know the logic? Are the lines routed differently than other cars, maybe something to do with the antilock braking system?

the benefit to doing it that way is you start at the closest to the VDC control module/hydraulic unit, and work any air between the master cylinder and the caliper out faster than if you went to the caliper farthest away. The procedure is under a section for air bleeding - getting air out of the system, not dedicated to flushing out old fluid. At first the order looks like it's the closest to the farthest away, but the right rear is closer than the left rear.... at that point, it's not that much farther, so simply working around the car in a single loop might be easier than flip flopping the order in the rear of the car. Dunno. Probably some efficiency kanban study on movement and physical steps taken was done or something. It is easy to remember, start closest to the VDCCM/HU and work around in a single loop.

 

[CRKrieger]

A couple of comments on the thread so far ...

First, normal DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 brake fluid is hygroscopic. That means that it absorbs water and combines easily with it, to a point. This is the biggest reason to change out the fluid. It's also the reason that no special washing or rinsing measures are needed. Brake fluid rinses away with water. If you wash your hands normally, it's gone.

If you leave the fluid in the system long enough, water WILL infiltrate through the vented cap. Excess water that can't be absorbed by the fluid can separate and collect at the lowest points. That's at the piston bores at the calipers. There, it forms rust and the piston can seize up because of the rust. This calls for a rebuild or replacement. If you're lucky, you'll discover the problem before the next thing happening ...

The other thing this water can do is boil when you get it hot enough. That reduces your braking to ZERO. Trust me; I've been there. Boiled water/steam is NOT a reasonable substitute for hydraulic fluid.

Now, consider the synergy of those two issues. A piston that's sticking in the bore will hold the pad(s) against the disk surface. That pad against the surface will get VERY hot. That heat will boil the water in the system. It may even boil the brake fluid, which will have a lower boiling point because of the absorbed water. Then, you have NO BRAKES.

Finally, I'll mention that most HPDEs (High Performance Driving Events, such as the BMW club event I'll be instructing this weekend) REQUIRE that the brake fluid be less than a year old before you're allowed on track. The reasons above are why.

 

[kcy]

No little diagram like the one posted- I suspect that comes from some third party manual. Helpful though.

Nah, it's homemade by yours truly...I like visuals and there wasn't one handy, so I fixed that "omission." 🙂

 

[N4HHE]

not drain in the conventional sense, i replace all old fluid with new by bleeding each corner

So you use new fluid to push the old out. That is good. That is safe.

 

[N4HHE]

I now help him change his brake fluid every three years. 🤗

A reasonable service interval specified by many vehicle manufacturers is 4 years on the initial flush then 2 years thereafter. Some simply say every 2 years.

 

[rogersk]

The apprentice does it and the shop charges full rate. That's how the shop makes their margin.

As someone who was a dealer fixed operations manager for years and years, we used apprentices to keep costs lower and competitive with independent shops for basic services (eg: oil changes, winter tire changeover, rad flush, brake flush). I saw any customer that left the day the warranty was up as a failure. Fortunately we kept customers, because we charged fair prices and treated people right.

Margin comes from value to the customer and return business, and return business that is retail, not warranty.

Any dealer service manager who ignores routine retail customer pay work and overcharges for it is an idiot and needs tp find a new job. The profit is in retail, not warranty, yet some dealers see 80%+ of their sales in the service dept come from warranty. The problem is (a) most dealer principals come from sales and have no concept of fixed operations (b) these same dealer principals fixate on moving new and used units, and ignore the fact that a well run service and parts dept can generate 5-10x the profit of sales, and keep customers happy doing it.

 

[Jallen4]

I also was a Parts and Service Director in a top 50 Chevrolet store. Ultimately I owned and managed multiple new car stores of various makes. I agree 100% with every thing you say...except your "5-10x profit of sales". I have seen and studied a lot of dealership statistics and that scenario I have never seen nor for that matter ever heard it discussed in dealer meetings. Folks don't invest 10 million plus buying stores so they can have a service department!

 

[Flat6Brick]

Welp! The stealership got my brake fluid change done, and did their multipoint inspections. At only 29k miles on my '17 they said I need to replace the front and rear brakes which would cost over $500!! I initially said yes but they didn't have a 10 spline wheel removal tool because of my aftermarket wheels and said removing the lugs themselves and putting OEM ones would be $310! I said, heck no. Now I need to get a second opinion to see if the brakes are even worn. If so, I heard Hawks brakes are good. Or maybe this? Amazon.com: For 2015-2020 Subaru Legacy, Outback, WRX R1 Concepts Front Rear Silver Zinc Cross Drilled Slotted Brake Rotors Kit + Ceramic Brake Pads : Automotive

 

[ammcinnis]

The stealership got my brake fluid change done ... but they didn't have a 10 spline wheel removal tool because of my aftermarket wheels ....

How did they do a proper brake fluid flush, which requires accessing the calipers, without removing the wheels? Also, IMO, an additional charge to accommodate non-standard aftermarket parts (wheels, etc.) is reasonable.

 

[Unibody62]

How did they do a proper brake fluid flush, which requires accessing the calipers, without removing the wheels? Also, IMO, an additional charge to accommodate non-standard aftermarket parts (wheels, etc.) is reasonable.

I think they could bleed brakes without removing wheels, but you usually can’t assess brake disc wear without removing wheel.


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[Unibody62]

Welp! The stealership got my brake fluid change done, and did their multipoint inspections. At only 29k miles on my '17 they said I need to replace the front and rear brakes which would cost over $500!! I initially said yes but they didn't have a 10 spline wheel removal tool because of my aftermarket wheels and said removing the lugs themselves and putting OEM ones would be $310! I said, heck no. Now I need to get a second opinion to see if the brakes are even worn. If so, I heard Hawks brakes are good. Or maybe this? Amazon.com: For 2015-2020 Subaru Legacy, Outback, WRX R1 Concepts Front Rear Silver Zinc Cross Drilled Slotted Brake Rotors Kit + Ceramic Brake Pads : Automotive

Slotted and cross drilled may not be for all areas of the country, and I don’t think you need something like that unless you are racing.


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[Brucey]

Welp! The stealership got my brake fluid change done, and did their multipoint inspections. At only 29k miles on my '17 they said I need to replace the front and rear brakes which would cost over $500!! I initially said yes but they didn't have a 10 spline wheel removal tool because of my aftermarket wheels and said removing the lugs themselves and putting OEM ones would be $310! I said, heck no. Now I need to get a second opinion to see if the brakes are even worn. If so, I heard Hawks brakes are good. Or maybe this? Amazon.com: For 2015-2020 Subaru Legacy, Outback, WRX R1 Concepts Front Rear Silver Zinc Cross Drilled Slotted Brake Rotors Kit + Ceramic Brake Pads : Automotive

The brake job on these cars are hilariously easy. The rears just need a $20 tool to retract the electronic parking brake.

The average life on the rear pads seem to be 65~k and the average life on the fronts seem to be 100~k.

You're modified and tuned though. Or at least you used to be. So if you drove to match the tune it wouldn't surprise me to have a shorter life span.

 

[Flat6Brick]

The brake job on these cars are hilariously easy. The rears just need a $20 tool to retract the electronic parking brake.

The average life on the rear pads seem to be 65~k and the average life on the fronts seem to be 100~k.

You're modified and tuned though. Or at least you used to be. So if you drove to match the tune it wouldn't surprise me to have a shorter life span.

Good point on the tune. I drove the hell out of my car for most of its life.

I think they could bleed brakes without removing wheels, but you usually can’t assess brake disc wear without removing wheel.


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they said there was 3mm left on the rear pads. I wonder how they assessed that as well. Wonder if they are lying to me because I told them the brakes squeal when I come to a stop.

 

[Flat6Brick]

Here is the eeport

 

[AvidHiker]

At 3mm I'm pretty sure you could be hearing the squealers on the rotors, which means you really should get them replaced ASAP before there's rotor damage. As mentioned, a pad swap with OE parts is not terribly difficult, and would only cost you maybe $150 if you can DIY. Looks like they're also recommending a rotor cut which, personally, I'd pass on (unless run out is causing brake shudder).