how much cheaper is it?

even if the car's ecu can adapt to it (injector size and fuel pump may be too small) - it has lower energy density so, you will get worse mileage.

octane rating is not a problem though.

 

No, it will not. Only vehicles built for dual fuel are OK to run E85. The fuel system parts in your vehicle will be attacked by the fuel, and the system will also not be able to supply sufficient fuel for it to run properly. Your vehicle might run OK on the 15% stuff that is becoming available, though I would just stick the 10% regular your car was designed for.

 

It will eat your fuel line and hoses you can change stuff over to run it some people with WRX's and STI's do that

 

No.

 

I know mileage will be lower, but with short, in town trips right now it won't much matter. I know that in 2000 when I was working at a GM dealer, we had vehicles specifically labeled as 'flex fuel' that could handle E85, but that the main production could not yet. Seeing as this is 2 years later production and we have 10% alcohol in our fuel, I figured it might be passable.

Lets not turn this into another 'damned alcohol fuel ruins everything' thread. The difference between 10% and 25% isn't the end of the world for an automotive application, and I'm sure if I ran a tank through it wouldn't hurt. Longer term effects are what I'm asking about. I know what alcohol does to things like small engines or much older vehicles that were NEVER designed to run any alcohol fuel. That's not quite what we're talking about here however.

 

Cardoc tuned his rig to run E85, I'm sure you can do the same. Dunno if the costs of doing so will pay off, but I'm certain it can be done.

 

and he gets lower mpg on alcohol.

Unlike a 2002 2.5, Flex Fuel vehicles have fuel systems lined in brass other material choices that the higher alcohol content will not react with.

100% of the cars in Brazil have been sold like this for 30 years or more. They also have sensors to change the fuel trim automatically to identify how much alcohol vs. gasoline the car is running on presently.

This is another reason why Brazil likes to cut the rain forests down to grow more sugar cane for their alcohol cars.

The whole point in running alcohol is that it lowers the emissions down to nothing. It is also like high octane race car fuel if you have your settings correctly. (like the cardoc's or one of the modified XT's that have posted recently)

 

Your total cost per gallon may be lower with E85, but, there are a couple things that need to be done to make it run the higher alcohol and volume.

On average, a shot of E85 has to be 30% higher than gasoline in order to get the proper combustion. So you'll need to get larger injectors. Without boost, I would say maybe step up to around 340cc or so.

The fuel pump will be able to handle the flow, the ECM will ramp it up, but a larger flow pump will help keep electrical overload to a minimum, so something like a DW265, should suffice. (I think I have one sitting here at the apartment.)

Fuel hoses may need to be updated, may not. It depends on the condition at present.

The alcohol leaves deposits and allows water to react with the metals in the tank, so the level sensors will be effected over time, but Techron added to the tank generally cleans the deposits and the level sensors will work again. I need to pull mine out and physically clean them after 20k in.

Then there is a tune. You have to alter the injector latency to match the new injectors, you have to change the fuel and ignition map to accommodate the higher volume and higher octane. You'll see an increase in power, but without dual maps, one for gasoline and one for E85, you'll need to stick with the E85 once you go in to it. Because once you change the injector size, you'll even need a tune for gasoline. Ed at Fast Performance Tuning told me one time that he knows a guy that has a trigger on his Subie to swap the fuel maps with a flick of a switch. He apparently did a physical action that the Flex Fuel cars are programmed to do. You see, the Flex Fuel cars have alcohol sensors in the fuel system to evaluate the amount of alcohol and it changes its map accordingly without setting rich or lean codes.

With E85 the car will also have cleaner emission out the tailpipe.

It comes down to how much do you want to spend to switch?

Injectors will run about $350-400, Fuel pump another $250-350, tune will average $250-600 depending on how many maps you want and then you have the small stuff like the fuel hoses that may need to be replaced. Tactrix cable is necessary in order to retrieve the ROM and reflash with the changes and it runs about $180 I think???

You can't just put E85 in the tank. It won't run too good, or at all; too lean.

 

My total cost difference, in fuel cost at the pump, is about +.02 cents a mile more running E85 even though I get 15-18 mpg with the alcohol. Here the E85 is about $1 less than Premium Unleaded. So that's $2.00 per hundred miles more I pay out for fuel over 93. But it provides a higher HP/Torque value, burns cooler with boost and is clean.

 

I guess maybe I'll wait for a newer car before bothering with E85. Seems to me the feds mandated that all cars at some point along the way will be required to be able to run E85. That'll make life much simpler.

 

I wonder if they are already switching to summer gas.

My scanguage II always reports about 21mpg on my mixed round trip drive of 36 miles during this past winter. Yesterday and today 23 and 24,
I always buy at the same kwikfill..maybe they bought some non-ethanol?

 

Dave are you putting 93 octane in? Such gas may have no ethanol in it year round. = look it up for your local stations.

You can get a up tick in mileage as the engine is not struggling against the frigid or cold to operate. (the best it can run is at like 45mph during a high pressure system, when it is cool out, 40- 55 degrees F maybe, when you can maintain good momentum without tagging the brakes or feeding it more gas to maintain speed.

but still cool enough you don't have the windows open, or the air conditioner on, and the engine is maintaining and dissipating heat very economically.

all these things give the best miles per gallon without you or anyone doing a thing.

 

Its April, switcheroo.

 

I was getting 27 mpg on 93 octane prior to the SC installation. Make sure all the maintenance is up to date and proper and the high octane will be your wallet's friend.

 

Ethanol

Any car can tolerate up to about 12% Ethanol. At that level there is no material compatibility problem and the ethanol actually aids cold starting and boosts octane.

At concentrations of 15% and higher, cold starting suffers and material compatibility becomes a problem. Many newer cars can tolerate concentrations of 15% and higher but they are not generally tested or originally approved for anything over 10%. At 15%, the ethanol is also beginning to compromise cold starting.

Methanol can cause material compatibility problems at much lower concentrations (2.5% in older cars).

The stochiometric Air/Fuel ration for ethanol is 9.2:1 verses 14.64:1 for typical gasoline. The lower viscosity of ethanol helps offset this in fuel metering but but cars many can not tolerate much more than 15% ethanol.

Ethanol requires a dramatically different ignition advance curve in addition to different fuel metering. VVT engines and turbocharged engines should also have different boost control and valve timing control when operating on stronger solutions of ethanol. Ethanol also changes the intake temperatures and tend to increases crankcase acidity (dramatically under some conditions). A slight change in crankcase acidity can have a dramatic impact on the life of your head gaskets!

Flex-fuel engines will tolerate any blend of gasoline and ethanol (as long as any water stays in solution).

I would absolutely NOT attempt to run E85 in any car that is not OEM approved for E85. the benefits are minimal and risks are substantial.

If you were rebuilding the entire powertrain for maximum performance and willing to $pend $$$$ ... that would be another story. But, your post suggests that economics is your motivation and there is no liklihood that you are going to realize a real reduction in long term costs with what you appear to be suggesting.

 

After reading some of the replys:

1. Use only Top Tier approved gasoline ( Top Tier Gasoline & Top Tier Gasoline )

2. Do NOT use higher octane fuel than your owners manual recommends (87 octane for most non-turbo applications). The higher octane fuel encourages increased deposit formation.

3. Do not use ANY fuel supplements and do not perform injection cleaning/flushing services. If the correct Top Tier approved fuel is used you don't need them and when the injection cleaning chemicals get into your fuel tank (which they will), they can dramatically shorten the life of elastomers (including that O-ring in the fuel pump module)

4. If you have already been using gasoline that is not Top Tier approved (especially high octane) you may need to get the carbon cleaned out before you switch back to 87 octane fuel. Have an injection cleaning service performed by a professional shop that introduces the chemical through the fuel rail (not poured into the tank). Fill the tank BEFORE the service is performed. And, make sure a high quality cleaning solution is used. Ask for an MSDS sheet (they are required to have it on file). Do NOT allow the use of any solutions containing Toluene or Diacetone alcohol (can damage that fuel module O-ring). Try to stick to a solution that contains Polyether Amine with Kerosene or similar solvent and not much more. Benzene compounds are OK but don't get any of that stuff in contact with your skin.

 

Interesting.

**** I find this ****** don't need 93 cause I don't tow with it and it's never that hot around here and the roads are pretty flat. Now if I towed on a hot day up hills i'm sure the cheap chit would send awful shock waves around my head gaskets from the pre ignition and maybe even crack a piston or 3!



Hey I been seeing water in the cargo area and never knew where it was coming from..well today it rained hard and I went to back up and water poured out from the roof area where that seat belt comes from and that little hook thing next to it..where do i have to seal or fix it?

 

I see a Ford Escort in your future. 91 octane at least. = Edit, Read owners manual, and you like to drive over 100mph, so that sounds like you need 93. at least according to the police and your scan gauge.

look up threads about cleaning the tubing to drain the water away from the moon roof.

The tube terminates near the drivers rear of the car where the jack is, a plastic hose as big as your little finger, just in front of the jack.

here is one
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/99-do-yourself-illustrated-guides/8005-clean-your-sunroof-drain-hose.html&sa=U&ei=CIk_U-7hMZTKsQSI_IGoDA&ved=0CA4QFjAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGySq3xncDxWY7YmTRu9yt7MRcGhg