Anyone have the answer?

 

2005 Outback front differential drain plug gasket

Aluminum Gasket 32.5 foot pounds
Copper Gasket 51.6 foot pounds

Sorry, I see that is already provided.
Sorry, I cannot help you.

 

Aluminum Gasket 32.5 foot pounds
Copper Gasket 51.6 foot pounds

Sorry, I see that is already provided.
Sorry, I cannot help you.

Thanks, but, the torque value provided for the Aluminum gasket is not essentially for the new 803926090 gasket, but, for a previous Aluminum gasket. In fact, I do not know if the material of 803926090 is Aluminum or something else, but, it looks like Aluminum on one side with some fiber material on the other side. The new FSM may provide a better torque value, but, my old FSM may not be up to date. The problem that I am having is that when I tightened the transmission/differential drain plug to 32.5 lb ft, it leaks a very little amount which is not that noticable, but, still a leak. I still prefer the old copper gasket, 803926070, (which is not available any more) which never leaked on me. I can't find an aftermarket copper gasket either.

 

I changed my existing fluid (@122,000 miles), we bought the 2005 OB brand new. I changed all the fluids to full-synthetic. I bought a copper washer at the auto store and it was a bit too large, it would not fit over the threads of the drain bolt. I put it on a round file and put the edge of it against my bench grinder so it would spin and remove some from both inner and outer diameters, until it fit. I then carefully sanded the copper washer on a piece of glass using 400 grit then 600 grit paper to eliminate the burrs I created. After torquing it down and installing new Valvoline SynPower 75W-90 oil (for long Vermont winters), I have yet to drive it as I am replacing all the struts, all the brakes, both tie rod ends, the right front inner tie rod, parking brakes, new drums and discs, among other things.

I do see that what I made does not leak at all.

 

I changed my existing fluid (@122,000 miles), we bought the 2005 OB brand new. I changed all the fluids to full-synthetic. I bought a copper washer at the auto store and it was a bit too large, it would not fit over the threads of the drain bolt. I put it on a round file and put the edge of it against my bench grinder so it would spin and remove some from both inner and outer diameters, until it fit. I then carefully sanded the copper washer on a piece of glass using 400 grit then 600 grit paper to eliminate the burrs I created.
I do see that what I made does not leak at all.

Saint J,

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Could you please reference your source (if you remember). I will try to replicate the same. I assume that you torqued your custom cooper gasket down to 51.5 ft lb, didn't you?

I use Subaru Extra-S 75W-90 as I have a 5sp MT. I do not want to use aftermarket synthetic fluid and ruin my syncros.

 

I opened a one-year account with:
ALLDATAdiy.com Leading Source of Factory Automotive Repair Information :29:

I will double-check the torque on that!
Thank you for the reminder, as I may have used the lower setting.
I did need to buy a #70 Torx socket

 

The new "black" washer is definitely not copper or aluminum -- it's magnetic.

I more recently posted the same question here: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...5561-changing-front-differential-fluid-automatic-transmission-2.html#post449547

As noted in that post, I'm wondering if the "copper" washer might in fact have been steel, or at least a ferrous material, with a copper coating, and not all copper. I don't have a copper washer to test, and I'm reluctant to remove the current one that's on the plug without knowing what torque to use for the replacement. But if it turns out that the copper washer was in fact steel and that it's possible the only change has been to a different coating (due to copper costs), then the 52 ft-lbs torque value might still apply.

Anyone have a Subaru copper washer, even used, to see if it's magnetic?

 

In looking for the OEM one that I removed, which was copper, as I did test it with a magnet, I cannot find it, I might have tossed it after the new one worked.

The new one is solid copper as I ground down both the interior and exterior diameters and no bare metal other than copper was visible. Also, when I sanded both sides smooth, no other metal but copper was visible. HOWEVER, that washer was from the auto parts store.

 

OK, I just went under and checked the T70 bottom drain bolt on the front differential. It is tightened to 51 foot-pounds.

I got to thinking, if you have a round magnet, did they give you a magnet that I believe is located inside the transmission oil pan?

I changed my trans oil and the filter is in the left fender, behind the battery. I took the 'out' hose from the filter holder and connected it to a clear hose and down into a gallon container that I could see on the floor when sitting in the driver seat, and changed my 10 quarts of automatic transmission oil by first just draining the pan, putting the plug back (with new aluminum crush gasket like the engine oil plug gets), putting the same amount of new oil in that I just drained, starting and letting the gallon jug fill halfway (in about ten seconds), shut off, put the same amount (2 quarts) new in the trans, start again and repeat for all ten quarts.

Before all ten quarts were drained and changed, the fluid was a brownish color, the last quart or two coming out were red just like going in (full synthetic Valvoline Dexron VI, which is supposed to be backwards-compatible with the required Dexron III for my trans).

Right off, the trans shifted better! Before, the shifting would change a bit, shifts not being consistent, whereas, now, each gear feels the same and it shifts right up and down, no problems. I very rarely use the manual shift option with the automatic transmission shifter, so I cannot tell how it is if I were in "racing" mode.

 

I got to thinking, if you have a round magnet, did they give you a magnet that I believe is located inside the transmission oil pan?

Not sure what you mean.

I changed my trans oil and the filter is in the left fender, behind the battery.

Your descriptive info on the left side says the car is a 2005 with the 4-speed automatic. As far as I know, the filter is on the side of that transmission, not in the left front fender. Is the description correct?

 

Yes, exactly, mine is a 2005 automatic. They sure do change things.

There is, inside the automatic transmission, a round magnet with hole resting on an upward-formed metal post that is stamped upwardly from the bottom of the pan, I presume, as I recall seeing a large 'dimple' in the bottom pan of my transmission, although, I have never removed the bottom pan.

Could it be you somehow mistakenly got that round magnet from the dealer INSTEAD of a gasket of any type?

 

Could it be you somehow mistakenly got that round magnet from the dealer INSTEAD of a gasket of any type?

No, the metal washer/gasket we're discussing is not the magnet that is in the AT oil pan. It's the gasket for the drain plug, just as priyader described.

The black washer/gasket itself isn't a magnet; however, it is made of material, such as steel, that is magnetic.

In other words, when a magnet is brought near the washer, the two are pulled and held together. In contrast, when a magnet is brought near a piece of copper, or aluminum, there is no attraction at all. That's because copper and aluminum themselves are not magnetic materials, whereas the new black washer clearly is, suggesting that it made of steel or some similar, ferrous material, and not copper or aluminum. It's this difference that suggests the new washer would require a different drain plug torque spec than with either the aluminum or copper gaskets that used to be supplied.

 

I've written to Subaru Canada to see if I can get an answer to the torque spec question, but was wondering if anyone in the U.S., would be willing to contact SOA on the same issue.

The SOA website (https://www.subaru.com/shopping-tools/contact-us.html) has a drop down menu that includes "service related" which should be applicable to this issue.

Here's what I wrote:

Question:

What is the (new/revised) torque specification for the 4EAT front differential drain plug of a 2005-9 Legacy or Outback when using the newer metal washer/gasket now being supplied by Subaru?

Background:

Up until recently, Subaru dealer parts departments have supplied a copper washer/gasket, Subaru p/n 803926070 for the front differential drain plug of the 4EAT (and perhaps other applications). The service manual torque spec for the drain plug, when using this washer, is 52.6 ft-lbs. There is also a different torque spec when using an aluminum washer (32.5 ft-lbs), but parts departments seem to have always supplied the copper one.

Apparently p/n 803926070 has been superseded by p/n 803926090. This is clearly more than just a part number change. The washer has slightly different OD and thickness, it’s a silvery/gray metal with a black coating on the working surfaces rather than copper-coloured, and it’s ferrous, i.e., it’s attracted to a magnet, so it’s neither copper nor aluminum.

In light of the fact that the service manual has had significantly unique drain plug torque specifications when using the copper or aluminum washer, and given that the new washer is of a material unlike the others, it seems probable that there would, or should, be a different torque specification for the drain plug when using the newer washer.

I’ve checked the techinfo.subaru.ca and techinfo.subaru.com websites (to which I subscribe regularly), but unless I’ve missed it in the recent past, haven’t found any notices relating to this change.

I hope you can help provide the answer. . . .

 

I've written to Subaru Canada to see if I can get an answer to the torque spec question, but was wondering if anyone in the U.S., would be willing to contact SOA on the same issue.

Hi Plain OM,

Let me try contacting SOA and see if they can provide an answer. When I contacted the local dealer service dept (from whom I bought the part), they could not provide me a definite answer.

Thanks

 

Great!

By the way, the techs at a local dealer also couldn't answer. In fact, they hadn't noticed the change. In any event, they would just tighten till "snug". That's where my reference to "snug" in the linked post (#8 above) came from.

 

Plain OM,

Here is what I received from SOA. According to their reply, the maximum torque is only 12.2 ft-lb.

I definitely over torqued it. So, at this point, my only option is to remove the drain plug, drain some fluid and replace the gasket with a new one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for taking the time to contact us. The torque specifications for part number 803926090 is 50 +/- 5 N-m (5.0 +/- 0.5 kgf-m, 11.2 +/- 1.0 ft-lb).

Thank you, Paththage, for the opportunity to be of service.

Sincerely,

John J. Mergen
Subaru of America, Inc.
Customer/Dealer Services Department
1-800-SUBARU3 (1-800-782-2783)

 

Interesting . . .

Compared to the other two washers, that's low.

But in post #4 above you noted:

The problem that I am having is that when I tightened the transmission/differential drain plug to 32.5 lb ft, it leaks a very little amount which is not that noticable, but, still a leak.

Was this with the new washer?

In regard to my request, I had only an interim reply from Subaru Canada (receipt acknowledgement) but at least I know the request is in the queue. I'm really looking forward to see if the reply is the same as Mr. Mergen's. I will post when it arrives. (Wonder what I'll do if it's different. I'm holding my annual differential oil changes pending resolution.)

Incidentally, I've seen other posted replies by Mr. Mergen and they have, for the most part, been informative and helpful.

 

No response yet from Subaru Canada, but I've continued searching for possible leads and came across discrepancies which cause me to question the information received from SOA.

I had forgotten that I had a complete 2010 Forester factory service manual that I downloaded from the SOA website in June 2010. The 2010 Forester still uses the 4EAT automatic transmission (not the CVT). When I looked in the sections on changing the front differential gear oil, I found three different gaskets mentioned:

Tightening torque:
Aluminum gasket (silver)
44 N·m (4.5 kgf-m, 32.5 ft-lb)
Copper gasket (brown)
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)
Metal gasket (black)
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)

[In comparison, the 2007 Outback service manual that I have lists only two gaskets and no color information:

Tightening torque:
Aluminum gasket
44 N·m (4.5 kgf-m, 32.5 ft-lb)
Copper gasket
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)]

At first this was good news; a "metal gasket (black)" is included. But the downside was that the spec is 70 N-m or 51.6 ft-lbs, the same as the copper gasket, and not 50 N-m or 11.2 ft-lbs.

I then looked back at the posted info from SOA, and found an anomaly that puts the information in doubt:

The torque specifications for part number 803926090 is 50 +/- 5 N-m (5.0 +/- 0.5 kgf-m, 11.2 +/- 1.0 ft-lb).

First, none of the Forester specs are 50 N-m. Also, 50 N-m converts to 5 kgf-m (as indicated in the quoted text), but not to 11.2 ft-lbs (or is it 12.2?). Instead, 50 N-m is 36.9 ft-lb!

So not only is the 50 N-m different from the specs in the Forester manual (at 70 N-m), but it also isn't correctly converted to ft-lbs. This makes me a lot less confident in this information.

I also noticed on Subaru Technical Information System - Welcome that the 2007 Outback service manual has been re-issued in a new version (34). Perhaps the new specs are now included. Guess I might have to subscribe again to check, and perhaps download the full manual once again. . . . .

 

No response yet from Subaru Canada, but I've continued searching for possible leads and came across discrepancies which cause me to question the information received from SOA.
.

I hope that they will come up with a response.

I had forgotten that I had a complete 2010 Forester factory service manual that I downloaded from the SOA website in June 2010. The 2010 Forester still uses the 4EAT automatic transmission (not the CVT). When I looked in the sections on changing the front differential gear oil, I found three different gaskets mentioned:
.

plain OM, let's go back a bit. The gasket 803926090/803926070 is the gasket in the differential drain plug as shown in the attached image. That of course is the transmission drain plug as well for me as I have a 5spd MT, but, for you you do have a second transmission drain plug in addition to the differential drain plug as you have a 4EAT. I do not know if 803926090 is the gasket for transmission drain plug for you, but, I thought that CVT still has the same front differential shown in the attached image with a CVT instead of 4EAT that you have. So, CVT too still may be using the same gasket 803926090 for front differential unless Subaru has changed the front differential.

Tightening torque:
Aluminum gasket (silver)
44 N·m (4.5 kgf-m, 32.5 ft-lb)
Copper gasket (brown)
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)
Metal gasket (black)
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)

[In comparison, the 2007 Outback service manual that I have lists only two gaskets and no color information:

Tightening torque:
Aluminum gasket
44 N·m (4.5 kgf-m, 32.5 ft-lb)
Copper gasket
70 N·m (7.1 kgf-m, 51.6 ft-lb)]

At first this was good news; a "metal gasket (black)" is included. But the downside was that the spec is 70 N-m or 51.6 ft-lbs, the same as the copper gasket, and not 50 N-m or 11.2 ft-lbs.

.

I do see that these torque specs refer to the front differential drain plug not the transmission drain plug. So, we are on the same page here.

I then looked back at the posted info from SOA, and found an anomaly that puts the information in doubt:



First, none of the Forester specs are 50 N-m. Also, 50 N-m converts to 5 kgf-m (as indicated in the quoted text), but not to 11.2 ft-lbs (or is it 12.2?). Instead, 50 N-m is 36.9 ft-lb!
.

Well, I made up 12.2 (11.2+1 ft-lb for maximum torque.)

So not only is the 50 N-m different from the specs in the Forester manual (at 70 N-m), but it also isn't correctly converted to ft-lbs. This makes me a lot less confident in this information.

I also noticed on Subaru Technical Information System - Welcome that the 2007 Outback service manual has been re-issued in a new version (34). Perhaps the new specs are now included. Guess I might have to subscribe again to check, and perhaps download the full manual once again. . . . .

I totally agree with you on torque numbers. 50Nm is 36.878 ft-lb. I am sorry that I did not double check numbers before posting, but, I just posted what I received from SOA. That is actually, good news as I did not over tighten my front differential drain plug and stressed and yielded the thread in the housing at all. I used 32 ft-lb as a lot of on line forms suggest that and also the guessed figure given by the local dealer parts counter guy.

If the FSM is updated with new parts, yes, then I have to subscribe again and download the latest version to get the correct toque info.

Thanks for the update.

 

The CVT has a similar style drain plug for the front differential, but according to a diagram in the 2010 Outback FSM, it's placed differently on the case. The whole transmission case, from the bell housing back, is new. I couldn't verify if it uses the . . .090 gasket using on-line catalogues, and the service manual doesn't even have information on changing the front differential gear oil on the CVT -- in fact, it doesn't have a dipstick for either the front differential or the transmission itself. The 2010 Outback FSM does, however, show the torque spec for that front differential drain plug at 70 N-m.

For the 5EAT, which is still used in the 2010+ with the 6-cylinder engine, the instructions for changing the front differential gear oil don't refer to different gaskets; there's only the one 70 N-m spec. But for the 6-speed manual transmission, the same three specs (44, 70, and 70 N-m) are indicated (same as for the 2010 Forester 4EAT front differential).

And going back to the 2010 Forester FSM, it lists the same 3 different gaskets for both the AT front differential and the MT drain.

Sort of interesting that Subaru refers to aluminum, copper, then metal. As if the first two aren't metal. It does, however, fit the difference between non-ferrous and ferrous materials.

I do hope that SCI will respond, but I'm becoming less optimistic as time goes on. But in the meantime it's looking more and more as if the "black" gasket in the later FSMs is the 090, with the 51 ft-lb spec, and this is being used on all the front differentials and MT drains where the 070 was used before.

By the way, in an earlier post you wrote that at 32 ft-lbs the drain plug was leaking a bit. Was this with one of the new black gaskets? I wonder if 32 isn't enough. Or has it stopped?

 

Sort of interesting that Subaru refers to aluminum, copper, then metal. As if the first two aren't metal. It does, however, fit the difference between non-ferrous and ferrous materials.

just an aside but, could be poor translation. I was once shopping for a faceting machine and the Imahashi brochure I had referred to a part as being made from "stainless steel aluminum" . hah!

 

Hey, the one I thought I tossed, the OEM copper gasket, I found in with my tools, it is solid copper, a magnet does NOT affect it at all!

So, the 51 lbs/ft is for solid copper!

 

Great! We have that question out of the way.

Looks as if 51 ft-lbs is the spec for the new "black" gaskets on the front differential and the MT drain plugs. At least at this point, I see it that way, but would still like more formal confirmation.

 

Mine is still as dry as can be underneath that drain plug! I had to buy a 1/2" ratchet T-70 Torx bit to remove the plug, and it was extremely tight, needed a breaker bar on it.

I used the torque wrench when installing the new copper washer and plug. Since the plug had a lot of rust on it, I ran it through my bench grinder that has a course wire brush on one side, then spray painted the visible portion of plug.

Winters wreak havoc with anything that will rust or corrode in this climate.

 

I changed the differential fluids, using the "new" spec for the black gasket. I kept the used copper one as a reference. (As usual, I torqued to somewhat less because the threads are "wet" whereas the spec is for dry threads.)

Saint J VT: I understand you subscribed to ALLDATA recently. (http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums...electrical-electronics/47736-tricky-brake-light-horn-fan-issues.html#post455043) Does the ALLDATA information for your 2005 show the black gasket torque setting? (Or, perhaps it isn't updated yet.)

 

I changed the differential fluids, using the "new" spec for the black gasket. I kept the used copper one as a reference. (As usual, I torqued to somewhat less because the threads are "wet" whereas the spec is for dry threads.)

I have a couple of questions for you, Plain OM.

(1) What is the tightening torque that you used on the differential drain plug with the black gasket 803926090?

(2) With this torque, do you notice any leaks?

Thanks.

 

All it states regarding removing the plug, draining the fluid and reinstalling the plug is tighten the ATF drain plug. NOTE Use a new gasket. Tightening torque: 18 ft. lbs. I suppose "use a new gasket" would mean to replace whatever gasket you currently have with one that is identical, or nearly identical.

I know I got the new solid copper washer at the parts store, it was a bit larger in overall diameter and smaller diameter at the plug, so much that it would not go over the plug. I used a round file and let it spin on the file as I held it against my bench grinder course wheel. When it finally fit the original plug, I sanded with 400 emery then 600 to remove burrs around the circumference and any on the face-surfaces.

I remember specifically tightening that T-70 Torx Bolt to 51 ft. lbs. and then, even double-checking that after the discussion here.

 

All it states regarding removing the plug, draining the fluid and reinstalling the plug is tighten the ATF drain plug. NOTE Use a new gasket. Tightening torque: 18 ft. lbs.

18 ft-lb is the tightening torque for the automatic transmission ATF drain plug, which uses the same crush washer as the engine oil pan.

But we're not discussing the ATF drain plug. The drain plug referred to in the first post, that now uses the "new" black gasket with part # 803926090, is for the front differential on cars with automatic transmission. Although the front differential is contained in the overall transmission case, it is separate from the automatic transmission itself, and uses gear oil, not ATF.

The 51 ft-lbs is the spec for the front differential drain plug when using the Subaru copper gasket, and it seems now also when using the new black metal gasket.

I suppose "use a new gasket" would mean to replace whatever gasket you currently have with one that is identical, . . .

Whenever this is found in the Subaru factory service manual, it's always referring to the Subaru gasket.


The copper and now the metal gasket for the front differential are both solid -- they are not "crush washers" of the type used on the engine oil drain plug and on the automatic transmission drain plug. The washer used on the latter two plugs is indeed "crushable". It actually compresses when the drain pan plug is torqued down. This is quite apparent when comparing a new and a used one.

It's easy enough to confuse when there's three drain plugs underneath the engine/transmission area -- engine oil, front differential, and automatic transmission oil.

 

Sorry for the confusion, I was half asleep.
OK, back to the front differential.

All I see is to replace the gasket on the T-70 large Torx Drain bolt.
Then it says to tighten that to 70 Nm (7.1 kgf-cm, 51.6 ft. lbs.)

Now I recall, that is where the 51 ft. lbs. came in.

It says nothing about the seal, type of seal or anything, just use a new "gasket."

BTW, I ran a search of that gasket (803926090) and it did not come up in the manual. I suppose the manual is not yet updated as you mentioned.

If you remind me to look that up when you surmise their may be an update, I will do so.

 

If you remind me to look that up when you surmise their may be an update, I will do so.

I'll try to remember. In the meantime I will continue to pursue Subaru for a clear answer, and post then.

 

And, I will try to remember as well.
My head can act as a sieve sometimes.
Guess it comes with being over 55.
LOL
cry

 

Is this new black gasket used on the current 3.6 with the 5eat front diff? Thanks for the info. I am guessing Plain OM will know.

Are there aftermarket gaskets or do I have to go online or to a dealer?

Same weight gear oil 75w90 as the rear?

Anybody know if Autozone will have that T-70 torx bit?