Completely busted CV axle and no AWD?

Delayed pump failure from putting the torque converter back in? (if ever)

Switch on side of trans is moving and indicating different gears but the connection inside the trans has popped loose? (does it roll in P?)

Ran over something and dented the pan, blocking the pickup?

 

Thanks for the reply!

All CV axles are good.

Delayed pump failure....interesting. I don't know if this motor was ever taken out, but if the ATF oil pump failed that could explain the symptoms. Shouldn't it throw a code though if the ATF pump isn't pumping any fluid and there's no line pressure anywhere?

Gearshift appears to be functioning - does not roll in park, does roll in anything but park.

Dented pan - good call, I'll check for that tonight. Nothing is leaking down there, but I'll have to look at that.

 

Well, this is a weird one. Interested in seeing what it happens to be.

I would think that there would be a flashing AT light if the ATF pump failed but I could be mistaken.

 

If I get some time this weekend I think I'll try to get under it (unfortunately it's parked on the side of a busy street and I have no way to get it in the garage), take the belly pan off, start the car and then pull one of the trans cooler lines from the radiator. If I make a giant mess of myself, I guess the ATF pump works and the mystery continues on, if just a dribble, then it's the ATF pump.

I'll keep yall updated either way!

 

AH! I just got home from work and started messing with it and have a new development!

At around 4000-5000 RPM pressure builds and the transmission will suddenly engage real hard! I figure it can't be the ATF oil pump or else it would work all the time or not at all.

I once had this happen when doing a transmission filter on my 2004 Touareg - it ended up being the O ring on the filter (a real flat filter inside the pan with circular inlets and outlets) wasn't allowing the pump to suck in straight fluid.

In this case, I know the subaru has a screw on filter so it can't be that. Anyone else have any ideas on what this could be? For the split second it engaged at 4000-5000RPM it engaged REAL hard so I know it has the capability to do so still.

 

I would try a used valve body , swapping as a whole unit with all the solenoids
they are cheap at the yards and any ones from 2000 to 2003 H4 or H6 will works

 

actually low oil level WHEN the engine is running could do that
forget my last message about the valve assembly

on my first Dodge Avenger atx I had an external oil cooler radiator installed in front of the radiator
the car was loosing gears and in the end it wouldn't engage at all unless I was revving the engine really hard
oil level was fine when checked

however when I was thinking that the transmission was toasted I found a small leak in the oil cooler radiator
when the engine was off the vacuum in the oil lines was lost and the oil would go back in the pan making the oil level on the gauge to appear higher than it really was
once the engine was running about 2 liter of oil would fill the hoses and radiator and oil level in the pan was now way under and the transmission would engage

the H6 has an external filter in the driver side fender I would suspect that

technically if there's enought oil pressure inside you should get third and reverse even if the transmission is completely disconnect from the main harness

 

That's what I thought too! I added about 1/2 - 3/4 qt after that, and now it is slightly over the "hot full" mark on the dipstick, still no movement in any gear. I tried revving it up like I did before and this time, I was able to really lightly zing it to 5500 and back to idle with nothing.

Odd that it did it once though. I looked under and noticed the tranny pan has been really grossly RTV siliconed back on - recently. I wonder if the shop this guy had taken it to did something under there to reinforce their position of selling him on a $3000 transmission job.

 

Confirm you are checking the fluid level with the engine running, in park?

 

Confirmed - checked with engine running and warmed up in park. Shifted through all gears before hand as well.

 

@plain OM knows this transmission pretty well, he may have some useful ideas.

 

Quick question for you guys - this transmission should physically work in 3rd and reverse without any electronics right? Is there any connector I can unplug to test that theory? I'm wondering if even though the TCU appears to be working correctly from the data in FreeSSM, I wonder if its possible there may be some sort of short in the harness somewhere constantly telling the transmission it should be in neutral? That wouldn't explain the sudden engagement at high RPM I experienced last night though. This one has me stumped!

 

yes there is one It is called B11
a big square connector about 1.5 inch x 1.5
black and near the top of transmission just past the torque converter housing next to the dog bone

it carries the signals to all the solenoids and speed sensor
if you disconnect it and have enought pressure you will be in safe fail mode and get third and reverse
there's a second connector , smaller , that one is for the range selector keep it connected

 

I would think revving the engine up to 5 K and letting it engage would destroy any hopes of saving the transmission. If it's trying to engage all you are doing is burning up your clutch packs!

 

Possibly - when I did it, it was more of a quick blip with very light throttle and immediate complete let off for that one time - when it did engage it did so with nearly no load on the engine at all. Other than that one time, it is completely freewheeling as though in neutral and there doesn't seem to be any friction at all.

Now one potential possibility - could there be damage to the ATF oil pump that might allow it to sometimes turn and generate pressure under higher RPM, and perhaps what I did completely destroyed what is left of the pump? I would think though the pump would either be working or the shaft completely broken in which case it wouldn't work at any RPM. If it was in some weird state of being "halfway broken" I would think I'd be hearing some sort of whining or grinding noise in there, however there are no abnormal noises coming from the trans at all. In fact it sounds identical to my other perfectly working 4eat.


EDIT: Also forgot to add - just for shits and grins I did try with both the FWD fuse in and out, just in case that makes any difference, and it did not make any difference. Also, the duty cycle on the AWD transfer clutch did change appropriately for the addition/removal of the FWD fuse in FreeSSM as it should have. At this point, I'm almost 99 percent sure the TCU isn't at fault here.

There's also an odd aftermarket box of pretty good size with an LED and some dip switches on it under the dash fairly close to the TCU. I have no idea what it is, but luckily it doesn't appear to be connected to anything related to the TCU. It was getting dark yesterday and I didn't get a chance to investigate any further, but I will take pics and take a closer look tonight. My guess is some sort of aftermarket alarm/tracking device.


Anyway - thanks for all the tips and ideas everyone! Keep them coming! I'll post up my results of the filter change tonight as well as harness disconnect attempt.

 

There's a replaceable strainer-type "filter" that's fastened to the bottom of the valve body.

I'm fairly certain most of the valve body, including that strainer mounted on the bottom, is normally submerged in ATF all the time. If the fitting between the strainer and the valve body were to leak, it would only allow fluid to bypass the strainer; it should not affect the drawing up of fluid by the suction side of the pump.

 

Thanks! That's good to know! Luckily I think I am finally getting somewhere!


Tonight I got home and had two things to test, the unplugging of the harness and changing the screw on filter. Harness unplug did nothing, reverse and 3rd still acted like neutral.

I then went to put my new filter on my H6, and take my working H6 filter for this, when I found that my VTD tranny on the H6 just has a block off cap and no filter anyway and I am apparently hugely mistaken in thinking it had a screw on. So I took my brand new unused filter I had bought for this and used it on this problem car.

Before I attached the filter, I noted the following:

1.) The previous filter had a lot of gunk around it as though it had been leaking
2.) When I unscrewed it, it was VERY loose, and it wasn't loose from the shop (that this guy got it towed to) doing anything, because there were no finger marks in the crud on the filter.
3.) I started the car with the filter off and noticed a definite (but slow) puking of fluid out the side. I figure good news! The ATF pump is pumping!
4.) I put the new filter on, and the car will engage in reverse AND forwards, but only slightly and at 2000RPM or more.


I then rechecked fluid levels - what was once reading as over full when running, is now NOT touching the dipstick when running. I'm guessing this guy had a slow leak and fully exhausted the tranny and torque converter of fluid over time through the loose screw on filter. Maybe that old filter was clogged and not allowing the pump to generate enough vacuum to suck new fluid through the system and through the torque converter until I got the new filter on.

5.) I then added FOUR quarts to get the level back up to full while running.


The car currently has no creep, and only partially engages (with a lot of transmission slip) at around 1200-1300 RPM. At 2000-2200 it is making enough line pressure to move in a manner that feels as though the clutches are fully engaged and not slipping.


Now that the trans is filled and has a new filter, any ideas? Maybe this guy slipped it so long the clutches are actually worn out and this is the best it is going to get? I don't think so though as it definitely feels as though fluid pressure is still building to a necessary amount with increase in RPM. I'm going to try bypassing the trans cooler tomorrow and see if that has an effect on fluid flow/line pressure in case there is a blockage there. I kept the old trans filter and may cut it open at some point to see if it actually is gunked up/blocked.

 

Is the old filter the genuine Subaru AT Filter (it would have the Subaru name on it and "AT" printed on the end), or another brand? Also, what brand/type new filter did you use?

If you open the old filter and find it clogged, then it might be worthwhile to remove the pan and check the strainer.

The Subaru AT Filter is unique. It has some filtering media (fabric-like material same as used in an engine oil filter), but there's a continuous bypass through a fine mesh screen. I've opened AT filters from Subarus with lots of mileage that are running well and the screen has very few deposits. It would seem that the only time that filter would become seriously restricted is if there has been significant wear or damage inside the transmission. Other filters might not provide the same flow characteristics. See: http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums.../forums/66-problems-maintenance/23762-subaru-transmission-filter-different.html

 

New filter is a genuine Subaru AT Filter. Not sure on the old one...it's got a ton of gunk on the outside. Looking through the hole at least, it looks fine and clean inside. I'll recheck fluid levels in a bit this morning and maybe try driving the car a bit to see if perhaps there's still some air in the valvebody/solenoids somewhere.

 

Just checked - tough to tell as I think all the writing is worn off the old filter, but it does appear to be a genuine Subaru ATF filter, just really old - perhaps even the original one the car came with.

I was able to drive the car to a perfectly level surface and recheck trans fluid after it warmed up (checked fluid while running after driving the car a short distance and shifted it through all gears). I believe I have now overfilled the ATF by about 1/2 qt.

There definitely still appears to be an issue with line pressure. Reverse is the strongest gear of them all and it starts to engage around 1200 RPM, and acts normal around 1500. The forward gears slip freely until about 1500-1700 RPM and then you feel fluid pressure start to build. At 2300+ RPM I can tell the clutches are still more or less fine as there is enough fluid pressure for me to give the car full throttle in first, second, and third gear (only tried for a bit as I was going way too fast for the street I was on) with no sign of slip. Once the revs fall below around 2000 though, there is not enough fluid pressure and the transmission then feels like its in neutral again and the revs drop to idle while coasting.

I may have to see if I can get it to a buddies lift, zap the pan off real quick and see what is going on with the pickup.

What makes this even more mysterious, is that this car was driving fine for my buddy who owned it, until it stopped completely (presumably it ran low on fluid) and now ever since, it has terrible line pressure.

 

btw the filter on your H6 is installed remotely inside the driver side fender it's the same filter model

 

That's almost starting to sound like a bad Torque Converter. I can't see how you haven't burned the clutches out yet!

 

I'm going very easy on it when it is slipping. For the most part with this issue, up until last night and this morning, it hasn't been applying any line pressure to the clutches at all, so no friction to even burn them out!

I'll have to take a look at the trans strainer and see. Something just doesn't add up with this trans - clutches are confirmed good because it can now handle full power when above 2000 RPM, it's just something is impeding pump flow at lower RPMs.



According to the factory service manual for "Diagnostic procedure with no trouble code" with "vehicle does not start in any shift range (engine revving up)" here are the following things it lists as possible causes:

1.) Strainer (unknown condition until I pull pan)
2.) Line Pressure duty solenoid (not sure how to test this)
3.) Control valve (I have no idea what this is)
4.) Drive pinion (ruled out because car does move)
5.) Hypoid gear (ruling this out, as some sort of gear breakage I would think would result in total failure)
6.) Axle Shaft (ruled out)
7.) differential gear (ruled out)
8.) Oil pump (pretty much ruled out. Is it possible the only pump could only partially work?)
9.) Input shaft (ruled out - again it wouldn't work at all if this was broken)
10.) Output shaft (ruled out - wouldn't work at all if this was broken)
11.) Planetary gear (ruled out)
12.) Drive plate (is this is the flex plate? if so - ruled out)
13.) ATF level too low (this time..I'm certain this isn't the case)
14.) Front Gasket transmission case (not sure. Is this suggesting ATF leakage into the front diff? I'll check the front diff oil shortly and see)

 

Slipping is Slipping. AT Clutches usually will not take much! I'm surprised the Torque Converter is not on that list! Have you been able to check the line pressure? If the clutches are getting the correct pressure and not burned up it would about have to be the Torque Converter!

 

Well, I tried the torque converter stall test again. Last time I did it in reverse because that gear seemed to have better line pressure and lockup at lower RPMs than the others. This time, I did it in a forward gear. I gave it a very quick blip of gas to 2000RPM for it to start pulling fluid, then gave it full throttle with the brake applied as per the service manual for the stall test. Stall checked out at a perfect 2200RPM wide open with the car pulling strong against the brakes.

Funny part is, after I did this in a forward gear this time, it must have moved additional air out of the system or something because the car now has forward and reverse creep and responds instantly from idle (750rpm), except when up a steep grade. It is now drivable around town normally. I took it on the highway and have no clutch slip in first, second, or third at wide open throttle, and fourth at heavy throttle (can't give it full without it kicking down unless I'm going REALLY fast haha).

It still has occasional conditions here and there where it feels like it isn't pumping enough fluid and I loose engagement suddenly until I blip the gas a bit to get fluid circulating again.

I think at this point it seems like there is something very wrong with the pickup screen, either it is clogged or not sealing on the valvebody.

 

could it be something else than Dexron III was put in the transmission ? like chrysler ATF fluid or something else and the transmission needs a good flush

 

It could be very possible, though the car is still very much behaving in a way that suggests it is getting inconsistent fluid pickup. A sudden quick rev will generate suction and the transmission behaves 100% normal for a little bit until what seems like fluid either stops getting pulled or gets partially pulled. I tried driving it hard then parking it and noticed some air bubbles in the fluid on the dipstick.

I think I'm going to have to pull the pan once the weather warms up outside and see what is going on in there, then re-fill it with new fluid. This car is behaving exactly like my old Touareg behaved when it had a blown o ring on the trans fluid strainer.

I'll keep you all posted! Doesn't look like I'll get a chance to work on it until Sunday or Monday as it is going to be in the 20's and snowing hard next couple days.

 

Hard to imagine going to the trouble of adding a stop leak to deal with a leak at the spin-on filter rather than re-seating/tightening the filter, or if that didn't work, changing it. Despite my position on using the genuine Subaru AT filter, I'm aware that aftermarket filters (not the same internal design) are being installed. If cost was a factor, an aftermarket filter could have been installed, probably for much the same, if not less, than the stop leak product. But, who knows . . . ?

When you do pull the pan, check the drained fluid for particles, as well as the pan and the screen. Pics of the screen would be nice.

 

at this point if you open the pan you might as well replace the whole valve body assembly
they are usually not expensive at yards
I bought a whole one for $30 a few weeks ago
easy to do, just disconnect the wires going to the solenoids and like about 12 bolts to remove

 

Well guys, pan is off. The strainer is there and tightened on the valvebody. At least in the opening, the strainer doesn't really look like the screen picked up any particles or anything that would block it. I also looked at the pan, I was wrong about mechanic recently taking this pan off, I thought it was from some RTV out the sides from a previous job, but this hadn't been off for a while.

Pan and magnet look normal. Not clean enough to eat off of by any means, but I've seen perfectly working transmissions that have gone many many miles more have worse looking pans/magnet. No real particles or anything nasty/abnormal that I can detect in the fluid. ****...it even tastes like normal used trans fluid (don't ask how I know).

At this point, unless anyone has any suggestions, I think I'm going to wait a couple hours and drink a beer or two while everything finishes dripping, clean up the surfaces, put the pan on, fill it with fluid, and dump the car for 1000 bucks if it at least somewhat moves. Weather here is spotty and I can only really work on it on weekends, so a new valvebody probably won't be happening. Had I thought ahead though - I probably should have gotten one before this anyway.

Fluid did look a bit dirty - maybe new fluid after I put it together will yield some different results in this story.

Any ideas on things to check for while I have the pan off?

 

Well, just took the strainer off as well - everything looks normal inside and I can shine a flashlight through it. I was cleaning the pan before putting it back on and did notice what I thought were some small metal shards. I put them up against the magnet and they were not magnetic and felt like brittle plastic. I'm wondering if some sort of seal somewhere internal to the trans or valvebody has some sort of plastic seal that could have broken?

 

After new fluid she runs and drives great! There's a bit of slip going into 3rd and 4th but that's it. I still have no idea what it was, but it seems like a combination of a lot of small factors. I think something definitely did break/block/stop sealing/etc. at one point and that is permanent, just things like new fluid and filter helped improve flow through whatever is wrong just enough to get it driving.

I think I'm gonna throw her up on craigslist for 1000 bucks as a mechanics special that's a running, driving, emissions passing car that is going to need a new tranny swapped in soon.

Thanks for the help and tips everyone!

 

maybe had some Lucas transmission fix and call it a day

good job !

 

Hey all. Hoping to get and update or revive this thread. I bought a 2002 H6 4eat over the weekend from CL for what I thought was a great deal @148k miles and under $2k.

The guy I bought it from had recieved it as payment as he is a mechanic. The teat drive went great. Cold A/C, acceleration was good, clean fluids, super clean body and all powered systems worked. I drove home across town with no issues, besides a little smoke from using silicone dressing in the engine bay--something I was willing to overlook. TBH, I forgot rule #2 is nevef buy a Subie with a clean engine.

Anywho, I went to drive the car to work on Monday. When I had backed out and started driving there was hesitation and I revved her up a little and experienced no noticeable issues on the 30+ minute drive in rush hour. 8 hours later I went to leave work and when I pulled out of the driveway at work, it just wouldn't move. There was the slightest bit of moving forward and several revvs later, it jumps into 1st with a peel out and proceeds to randomly go in and out of gear while driving in traffic until it finally stops acting up enough to drive through traffic home. It responded better on the drive to lower RPMs all the way home.

Once home I checked trans fluids again, it was overfilled according to the dipstick. I reset the ECU and attempted to drive it many hours later. Same story. Lots of hesitation after I had backed up, but finally got decent response at lower RPMs. Drove it around and it never got full power back, so I decided to see if I could get the issues to go away from a little drive. I pull out to a little uphill and it completely loses all traction in the middle of the road. Several minutes and curse words later, I managed to get enough pressure to get 1st partially engaged to get out the road. Reverse, which had worked fine before, is now clanky and crunchy. I drove extremely slowly under minimal power and parked it. Throughout the issues, there we no CEL or flashing transmission lights.

I did some research today and saw the car had previously sold with 131k in January of '15. The oil change sticker in the car said it was due for the next change roughly 03/17 at 148.5k, about 500 miles from where it is at now. All signs point to the car having sat for a while.

I have done plenty of small repairs to my 99 OBW engine and 02 Forester, but never fully dove into transmission. I am just wondering what the possibility the tranny might be totally shot is. I'm towing back out to the dude at the auto shop who sold it to me--who claims it never had problems all the times he drove it and said he would repair for free if I buy parts it might need. If that produces nothing, next stop is a decent tranny repair shop in town to get a diagnosis for $150.

Any thoughts on how hosed it sounds like I am?

 

hey dude,

is that a VDC car? or not, (there are 2 transmissions for 2002 H6, one with VDC and one not),...is it a wagon or a sedan.

I guess there was no help in shifting it by hand up and down the gate.

and yeah, it is nice to see a little dust around the engine bay on these in particular, ...as it is a sign that nothing like coolant or anything else sprayed around the engine bay recently.

(or flood water,... one time I was looking at a 2005 H6 limited outback sedan, ...and had to wipe the flood silt off the vin plate on the shock tower.).

but back to the transmission,: how old did the trans fluid look? (new should be like cranberry juice red, then it darkens towards brown, and finally black,... browns and blacks may have dark flecks from the fluid breaking down).....this one takes plain old type dexron.

 

Update 9/23

The torque converter failed and broke up causing metal shavings to block pumps and burn out. The transmission needs a total rebuild or replacement. This will be $2500-$3300 dollars, the rebuild being the more expensive repair. The rebuild does come with a 100k/3yr warranty so I am going that route. File this under cautionary tale.

The dude at the shop who sold me the car has refused to give me any money back, but he "graciously" offered to give me a discount on the repair. He said the car ran fine when I bought it and sold it "as is." Google reviews showed some other poor soul has experienced the same thing this week with them--car has undisclosed major issues the next day and the shop offered him to fix it at a discount.

I am looking to sue them because they are actually a registered dealership here in Texas (he didn't disclose that) and they did not provide all the information a dealership is supposed to here in Texas.
On top of that, the transmission place said the car had been poorly repaired at some point in the past and it seems unlikely that the torque converter came apart in one day. Knowing that and the fact the transmission fluid was practically brand new, there is a clear case of fraud.

At least I'll have a decent ride here shortly for about $5k. Others have had it much worse.

 

Update 9/23

The torque converter failed and broke up causing metal shavings to block pumps and burn out. The transmission needs a total rebuild or replacement. This will be $2500-$3300 dollars, the rebuild being the more expensive repair. The rebuild does come with a 100k/3yr warranty so I am going that route. File this under cautionary tale.

The dude at the shop who sold me the car has refused to give me any money back, but he "graciously" offered to give me a discount on the repair. He said the car ran fine when I bought it and was sold it as is. Google reviews showed some other poor soul has experienced the same thing this week with them--car has undisclosed major issues the next day and the shop offered him to fix it at a discount.

I am looking to sue them because they are actually a registered dealership here in Texas (he didn't disclose that) and they did not provide all the information a dealership is supposed to here in Texas.
On top of that, the transmission place said the car had been poorly repaired at some point in the past and it seems unlikely that the torque converter came apart in one day. Knowing that and the fact the transmission fluid was practically brand new, there is a clear case of fraud.

At least I'll have a decent ride here shortly for about $5k. Others have had it much worse.

the subaru 4EAT is a really reilbable transmission,...so buying one used is a good idea vs. fixing the one you got. (I mean like no one coughs it up to fix one of these trans vs. dropping in a good used one).

car-part.com ...LKQ,....and similar. ...I would not have a problem picking one out of a parts yard, etc. so long as it had a 30 day warranty for another. (and hopefully you would be able to get it installed and running / tested by that time).

and LL Bean should have that oval label on the fenders, and 2 tone brown / tan seats. in wagons only. (no LLBean sedans in 2002),
more on 2002 cars as scanned from the original books here.
2002 Subaru Outback options, prices, colors, all years. Seattle

VDC should say that on the fender, sometimes vin checkers show LLBean as they don't know what a VDC is.