Torque Binding

Could this forum offer a solution?
Any comments on the bit about 20 turns to the right and left fixing this issue.
Is this what they called torque binding? - Subaru Forester Owners Forum

 

OK I've done some more reading and it appears that Torque Binding is a problem with the Automatic transmission. So I'll forget that.

I managed to get a quote back from a U.S. supplier and boy it's 1/3 cheaper than what we pay here in OZ. At these prices I'd happily buy all the parts plus frieght.

Center Diff - 38913AA102 - $463.84
Transfer drive gear - 33113AA130 - $91.08
Transfer driven gear - 33128AA070 - $73.42

Bearings:806222060 - $12.76
806230150 - $18.50
806230130 - $15.55
806255010 - $30.68
$140 frieght

Can any of you guys in the U.S. vouch for http://www.subarupartsdepot.com/
Maybe offer alternatives?

I also found this artice which shows how to do it.
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/center-diffs-how-replace-them-46979/
It seems like something I would attempt myself but my service manual makes reference to making measurements and selecting the correct adjustment washers (see transfer case and extension tear down diagram parts 27 and 30).

Most home mechanics (including the author of that article) and on other subaru forums who say they've done this don't mention anything about selecting the correct depth washers. Can anyone comment on this or offer their experience?

Bare in mind this is an 11year old car!

Many Thanks

 

OK I've done some more reading and it appears that Torque Binding is a problem with the Automatic transmission. So I'll forget that.

I managed to get a quote back from a U.S. supplier and boy it's 1/3 cheaper than what we pay here in OZ. At these prices I'd happily buy all the parts plus frieght.

Center Diff - 38913AA102 - $463.84
Transfer drive gear - 33113AA130 - $91.08
Transfer driven gear - 33128AA070 - $73.42

Bearings:806222060 - $12.76
806230150 - $18.50
806230130 - $15.55
806255010 - $30.68
$140 frieght

Can any of you guys in the U.S. vouch for http://www.subarupartsdepot.com/
Maybe offer alternatives?

I also found this artice which shows how to do it.
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/center-diffs-how-replace-them-46979/
It seems like something I would attempt myself but my service manual makes reference to making measurements and selecting the correct adjustment washers (see transfer case and extension tear down diagram parts 27 and 30).

Most home mechanics (including the author of that article) and on other subaru forums who say they've done this don't mention anything about selecting the correct depth washers. Can anyone comment on this or offer their experience?

Bare in mind this is an 11year old car!

Many Thanks

WOW can't anyone vouch for these people?
Or Does anyone have any alternates at all?

 

I think everyone is staying clear because you've basically settled on the first diagnosis you were offered, which is very expensive, and you'd be irate if it turned out it WAS the classic CV joint failure it certainly sounds like. Dry boots doesn't mean a CV joint hasn't failed - joints with broken boots tend to fail more easily because of lost lubrication and introduced contaminants. The joint can fail with a perfectly good boot on it, especially on an 11 year old car.

Differentials are not that easy to install or set up, another reason nobody is likely to want to validate your decision for you - and then get blamed when you can't do it.

 

It's been 6 months since I last posted here, but wanted wait this long to ensure everything was still in working order before I followed up with this last update. The car is still going with the replacement Center differential. I've checked regularly and no leaks with the Diff housing either. The clunking has not returned so it's definitely fixed. I'd just like to say that this is not a super difficult job at all. I do basic servicing on my car and with the right tools was able to do it first time.
I'm glad that I took the advice of an experienced Subaru mechanic who, after taking the car out for a drive, immediately told me that it it was definitely not a CV issue and that it was the diff. I would have been silly not to listen to him. Best of all, I saved my self a tone of money and learned something along they way! Hope this post helps the next person who come's across this issue. Good luck

 

my mother had a 2000 legacy gt wagon that had the same problem. i ended up taking it to a subaru dealer and the said they would not replace just the center diff. they ended up changing the entire transmission, was pretty expensive. sounds like more that cv problem to me. especially since it doesn't make noise until after warming up. the subaru dealer told me that the center diff went bad because someone was beating on the car (spinning tires then hit dry pavement). i think that it could actually be more of a driving with a low front tire for an extend time.

 

This is Torque bind. In the center diff there is a viscous coupling Normally the differnce in axle speeds causes the fluid to heat up, you get awd, the axles match speed, no more AWD. (simply put).

WHat you are seeing is typical failure for a manula tranny (and they get torque bind too, it is not just autos). In a manual this usually is caused by driving on a underinflated tire or mis matched tires. Tires should be replaced in sets of four.

 

Just an update for anyone who is experiencing this problem and may want to consider doing it them self.

Considering the mechanic was an ex Subaru technician who now runs his own business dealing mainly with subaru's it was pretty hard to ignore his diagnosis.
I ended up not using him as he was not willing to use parts sourced from the US.
I went and ordered the Center Diff from subarupartsdepo and it arrived 9 business days later.

So I got set to work.
Basically here is the sequence I did things,

1)Jack up the car and place chassis stands underneath so all 4 wheels can spin freely.
2)Disconnect Negative Battery terminal and put car into neutral and release the hand brake.
3)Remove Exhaust heat shield from under the car (4 bolts and 2 nuts from memory)
4)unbolt 2 bolts (near rear catalytic converter) holding the front and rear exhaust togther, unhook 3 rubber gromets from rear exhaust and drop whole rear exhsust to the floor.
5)Remove the engines "Front under cover" (5 bolts and 2 screws, one under each wheel arch)
6)Remove Airbox and air filter to gain easier access to tranmission filler hole.
7)Disconnect the Exhaust oxygen sensor and unbolt exhaust manifold and drop the whole front exhaust to the floor (6 nuts).
8)Support Gear box with jack and block of wood
9)Remove rear and center gear box cross member (Leave front Gearbox cross member). 8 bolts and 4 nuts.
10)Remove Gearbox drain plug and drain gearbox oil.
11)Unbolt 4 bolts holding the Propeller shaft to rear diff.
12)Unbolt the center Prop shaft bearing (2 bolts) and slide the prop shaft off the Transfer case. Catch gearbox oil that will come out of the transfer case.
13)Use center punch to punch out pins holding shifter linkages (One pin is inside the other).
14)unbolt the shift bracket from the transfer case (3 bolts)
15)Unbolt the transfer case (9 bolts).
16)My Transfer case was stuck, so to get it off, I used a block of wood and placed it near the surface where it mated to the extension and struck it a couple of times. It eventually split and I caught the last of the gear box oil and out came center diff, trasfer drive gear, transfer driven gear and bearings.
17) I cleaned the surfaces of the extension case and transfer case with mineral turpentine and ran a bead of RTV silicone gasket, then put in the new Center Diff and gears back before closing the transfer case onto the extension.
18)Torque everything up to specifications in the manual.
19)Put everything back in the reverse order.
20)I waited 24hrs for the gasket to completely cure before filling with 75W90 (GL5) Gearbox oil. Almost 4 litres (3.7 US Quarts).

The most difficult thing was working flat on my back. It was hard to get enough leverage in that position so breaker bar and some pipes to give the extra leverage is a must.

It must be noted that the clunking was a problem that was easily reproduced. Towards the final days before I started this job, I could easily get the problem to occur with in half an hour of driving. I've been driving the car around for a few days now and the clunking has gone away.
So it was definately the Center diff.

For all those Ozzies out there who run into this problem and find out that this part cost's $1400(AUS), from Subaru Australia, I would thoroughly recommend buying from http://www.subarupartsdepot.com at less than a 1/3rd of the price and doing it yourself. It took me the better part of the weekend to complete and a 1/3rd of that was running back and forth to get some tools, which I didn't have, from the local autoshop.

Many Thanks to Mario from Rexnet for his tips.
My 99 Sti Coupe Modifications Logbook - Rexnet Subaru Forums - Page 3

Many Thanks to the guys on rexnet who offered their experiences on purchasing goods from overseas. It really gave me the push to try buying from the USA.
http://www.rexnet.com.au/forum/index.php?/topic/144290-buying-parts-from-overseas/

and to nx24 for his article post on Center Diffs and How To Replace Them - Subaru Forester Owners Forum

Good luck!

 

Just an update for anyone who is experiencing this problem and may want to consider doing it yourself.

Considering the mechanic was an ex Subaru technician who now runs his own business dealing mainly with subaru's it was pretty hard to ignore his diagnosis.
I ended up not using him as he was not willing to use parts sourced from the US.
I went and ordered the Center Diff from subarupartsdepo and it arrived 9 business days later.

So I got set to work.
Basically here is the sequence I did things,

1)Jack up the car and place chassis stands underneath so all 4 wheels can spin freely.
2)Disconnect Negative Battery terminal and put car into neutral and release the hand brake.
3)Remove Exhaust heat shield from under the car (4 bolts and 2 nuts from memory)
4)unbolt 2 bolts (near rear catalytic converter) holding the front and rear exhaust togther, unhook 3 rubber gromets from rear exhaust and drop whole rear exhsust to the floor.
5)Remove the engines "Front under cover" (5 bolts and 2 screws, one under each wheel arch)
6)Remove Airbox and air filter to gain easier access to tranmission filler hole.
7)Disconnect the Exhaust oxygen sensor and unbolt exhaust manifold and drop the whole front exhaust to the floor (6 nuts).
8)Support Gear box with jack and block of wood
9)Remove rear and center gear box cross member (Leave front Gearbox cross member). 8 bolts and 4 nuts.
10)Remove Gearbox drain plug and drain gearbox oil.
11)Unbolt 4 bolts holding the Propeller shaft to rear diff.
12)Unbolt the center Prop shaft bearing (2 bolts) and slide the prop shaft off the Transfer case. Catch gearbox oil that will come out of the transfer case.
13)Use center punch to punch out pins holding shifter linkages (One pin is inside the other).
14)unbolt the shift bracket from the transfer case (3 bolts)
15)Unbolt the transfer case (9 bolts).
16)My Transfer case was stuck, so to get it off, I used a block of wood and placed it near the surface where it mated to the extension and struck it a couple of times. It eventually split and I caught the last of the gear box oil and out came center diff, trasfer drive gear, transfer driven gear and bearings.
17) I cleaned the surfaces of the extension case and transfer case with mineral turpentine and ran a bead of RTV silicone gasket, then put in the new Center Diff and gears back before closing the transfer case onto the extension.
18)Torque everything up to specifications in the manual.
19)Put everything back in the reverse order.
20)I waited 24hrs for the gasket to completely cure before filling with 75W90 (GL5) Gearbox oil. Almost 4 litres (3.7 US Quarts).

The most difficult thing was working flat on my back. It was hard to get enough leverage in that position so breaker bar and some pipes to give the extra leverage is a must.

It must be noted that the clunking was a problem that was easily reproduced. Towards the final days before I started this job, I could easily get the problem to occur with in half an hour of drive. I've been driving the car around for a few days now and the clunking has gone away.
So it was definately the Center diff.

For all those Ozzies out there who run into this problem and find out that this part cost's $1400(AUS) or US for that matter, from Subaru Australia. I would thoroughly recommend buying from http://www.subarupartsdepot.com at less than a 1/3rd of the price and doing it yourself. It took me the better part of the weekend to complete and a 3rd of that was running back and forth to get some tools from the local autoshop which I didn't have.

Many Thanks to Marion from Rexnet for his tips.
My 99 Sti Coupe Modifications Logbook - Rexnet Subaru Forums - Page 3

Many Thanks to the guys on rexnet who offered their experiences on purchasing goods from overseas. It really gave me the push to try buying from the USA.
http://www.rexnet.com.au/forum/index.php?/topic/144290-buying-parts-from-overseas/

and to nx24 for his article post on Center Diffs and How To Replace Them - Subaru Forester Owners Forum

Good luck!

awesome post - glad your car is back on the road!

 

Did the noise occur all they time the car was turning? or only while you actually moved the steering wheel? On ours the noise only occurs as we turn the wheel. If we hold a constant diameter circle, the car is quite.

 

If I held it at a constant diameter the noise would still be there.
It didn't matter if I was holding it still or not. It was more noticable when the car was moving slowly. For example turning to park in a car park or turing to go up my driveway etc.
My New diff is still working great.

 

Well back to the top. Read this and wanted to comment that this happened to my 04 OB Ltd when I had about 90K on it. Exact symptoms. Vehicle has to get fully warm...typically highway speeds for 1/2 to one hour. Then if , at slow speed, you turn hard to pull into a parking space ...you get a clunk..clunk..CLUNK... that is relative to your speed. That is, as you go slower, the clunk gets slower. It's a very serious -sounding noise. Not subtle.

So as a reminder folks, keep tires inflated to proper pressure, don't mismatch tires and do not run a donut tire for any sifnificant distance. Or this is what you can end up with. Cost us around $2000.

I think my cause was having unequal tire pressure for many miles. Pays to be dilligent with these vehicles.

 

Well it didn't cost me $2000.
I spent 550 odd dollars and 2 days work.

 

I had similar problem on my 2005 Forester. Got all these expensive repair solutions from several dealers as well as independent repair shops. One independent shop took the transmission and drive train completely apart and he could not find anything wrong. Finally, one honest Subaru service manager advised to flush and change the transmission fluid and add some special transmission lubrication additive. Google transmission lubricant additives in your country, That could cure the problem. It did for me....
Try that before doing anything else....it may work!

UPDATE: I guess, disregard the above since I was addressing my car that has automatic transmission... but, perhaps those, who have automatics and have similar problems may try the above method....CV joints are and were OK!

 

Hi all. Looks like I have exact same problem in exact same city (Melbourne!). I'll try to get in touch with Spoonfork; - great post. Will also refer my mechanic to this thread.

 

more homework -

Hi again all. I spoke to the guys here:
Subaru Gearbox in Australia for Over 70 Gearboxes
who seemed really good. Their suggestion was to get a new centre diff though them (gen Subaru that they import from Japan) and get my mechanic to whack it in. My gearbox is fine, so this seems like the go.

If there are any of you in the know, I have a few questions:

- I have a shipment of stuff leaving the States soon. I note the post here talking about ~$500 new centre diffs. Is this a genuine item? (Mine's a 1999 Outback Manual 2.5). The Aus quote was for ~1k for the diff posted to Melbourne. he charges about $280+ to fit (but he's a gun!). Is it worth me getting parts from OS? The upside of getting them in Sydney is he's happy to follow up with advice if necessary (and he knew his stuff!).

- What sort of risk is there that gears (as mentioned) will be needed?

- what would be regarded as a reasonable price for labour (I don't have facilities or time at the moment)?

Whew! Mat

 

Hi again all. I just wanted to thank all of those who have posted info regarding diagnosis and repair of a centre dif unit. Thanks to Spoonfork in particular for the great info! In the end, as I'm light on for time, and even lighter on for talent, I ended up getting all the parts for my 1999 Outback centre diff replacement for the US - www.subarupartsdepot.com
I didn't bother with the transfer gears, and they turned out to be fine. Here are the parts I needed (minus the gears):
1 38913AA102 CTR DIFF AY 1 497.52
2 33113AA130 GEAR TRANSFE 1 107.39
3 33128AA070 GEAR TRANSFE 1 86.63
4 806222060 BALL BRG 22X 1 13.69
5 806230150 BALL BEARING 1 20.57
6 806230130 BALL BRG 30X 1 18.34
7 806255010 BALL BRG 55X 1 32.91
I also didn't need the 806255010 bearing. The prices here are USD. Shipping was very reasonable (considering US shipping is usually a hellish ripoff!
SO:
- Subaru Australia (and I hope you're reading this) is a complete ripoff sham. I'm sure back in the day they got away with this bullshit all the time, but guess what - there's now this thing called the Interweb!! All these parts are genuine Subaru, from the same factories, with the same serial numbers, shipped worldwide. The GENUINE centre diff I paid USD$497 for was quoted by Subaru suppliers in Australia at MIN $950 (this was someone bypassing Subaru Australia and importing them directly from Japan) and as high as $1650 direct from Subaru Australia! Same for the other bits!
So, as a compromise, I got all the bits from the States at well under 1/2 the price (incl delivery) of Australia prices, and had my mechanic do the work. The total (parts, labour, oils, etc) came in at about $1100.
Thanks again to everyone who helped.

PS. The guys I spoke to here, http://www.subarugearbox.com.au/ were fantastic. Unfortunately they're in Sydney, so I was unable to use them. But many thanks to them for their friendly and honest advice!

 

Sorry for not replying but it's been a long while since I've logged into this forum. I also noticed a number of PM's in my inbox regarding this "Clunking Center Diff" issue. So just to answer those querries and incase anyone else is wondering.....
My outback is still going strong since I fixed this issue back in early 2011 (5.5 years ago). I've had no leaks from the casing since removing it and am glad to see this post has helped others. My outback is now 16 years old and is still in great condition!

 

I'm also having the same issue on my 2012 outback, anyone in the New Jersey
area that can do this job for me?

 

I'm also having the same issue on my 2012 outback, anyone in the New Jersey
area that can do this job for me?

Level 10 TRANSMISSION