Hello!
I am in the market my next vehicle. Two actually, one for my wife and one for me. My wife and I decided to take a clean-sheet approach and look at the automotive market from a fresh perspective and try to find vehicles that both met our needs and that we were passionate about. We started from a point where buying essentially any vehicle we wanted new was the reference point, irrespective of cost. Then we both made laundry list of vehicles we were interested in, began a process of elimination focusing primarily on functionality for our specific needs and desires, and how much we liked the driving experience of a given vehicle. We also used Consumer Reports and other data as a reference point for eliminating vehicles with poor reliability. Once we narrowed the field, then we began to examine total cost of ownership issues, expected level of support from the manufacturer/dealer, and also very importantly from the virtual communities for each marque.
We have owned several Volvo's through the years and have had very good experience with them overall, feel they represent a great value that is often overlooked. Safety is one of my primary concerns, having been a former Deputy Sheriff for quite a while I have seen my share of accidents. So while we were generally very satisfied with the Volvo's, we have not been happy about the maintenance and repair costs that have accompanied our ownership. These vehicles have been perfect for us with the exception of these repair costs, and gas mileage which is on the low side. However, I have was not able to find a vehicle within the current Volvo alternatives that really meets my needs.
I am on the fence for wanting one of two types of vehicles: Either a very fun-to-drive sport sedan that will comfortably accommodate four adults. Or a utility vehicle that is also fun to drive. I have been fortunate to own several great driving cars through the years, and enjoy driving so this aspect is a priority for me.
After working through about two dozen vehicles (my wife has decided on an XC60 as her next vehicle) I have distilled my selection down at this point to either an Infiniti M37S as a sport sedan, or a Subaru Outback as a fun to drive utility vehicle.
My interest in the Outback was piqued by an experience during the test drive. There is a stretch of rural road near here I have been using for most of the test drives, which includes a sharp off camber turn, We were test driving a 2013 2.5 Limited with myself and three other adults in the car. When we approached the curve, a pickup truck veered over on my side of the curve as I approached at least two feet into my lane. I had to swerve as hard as possible as far to the right as the shoulder allowed, and then snatch the wheel back left to complete the off-camber portion of the curve. All this happened in just a few seconds. The Outback was not at all unsettled during this, and responded as you would hope it would without any drama whatsoever. We all were amazed. Wow was all I could say.
Another test drive a week later piqued my interest even further. I drove a 2013 Outback and an Infiniti M56S back-to-back. I first drove the Outback, and was impressed again by it's taut, responsive handling. It is firm but not harsh, with just maybe a little more sway than I like, but I understand this can be helped with an STI bar as many have done. I next drove the M56S (waaay more power than I would ever need) but found the handling, brakes, and ride to be superb, if not approaching or matching that of may exotic cars. About halfway through the drive, I told my wife, "You may think I am crazy, but I am amazed at the similarities between the way these two cars handle". Now obviously the M56S, at its limits, will eclipse the Outback in handling as this was the sport package car, purpose-built for handling. But at the level of handling where most of us spend a majority of our time, it was remarkable to me the similarity in ride, steering, and handling feel between the two cars. I found the Outback to be very responsive and to deliver a very enjoyable driving experience, surprisingly so. Subaru engineers really did their homework doing the 2013 suspension re-design, should be commended, and I hope they are able to read this.
So, let me summarize the strengths I see for my current situation in the Outback:
Outstanding safety record at or near the top of the heap.
Very good fuel economy for the segment relative to other similar AWD utility vehicles.
Excellent ergonomics and room, both front and back. Great headroom. The largest back seat we have seen of any vehicle we have looked at, remarkable considering the manageable exterior size.
Ground clearance, suspension travel, approach and departure angles, turning radius, and visibility bring a nearly worry-free perspective to driving in the every-day real-world conditions.
Excellent AWD reputation for inclement snow and ice weather, moderate off-road, and rainy conditions.
Excellent and versatile storage capacity.
Very comfortable interior, and excellent feature and option mix, especially in the Limited version.
Relatively seamless CVT operation in the 2013+ compared to an automatic.
Modest cost given the packaging and option level, very competitive.
Surprisingly good handling and driving experience.
It seems to be the Swiss army knife of vehicles, and a very good one at that.
I have spent several hours trying to explore the Outback, here and otherwise, trying to discern if the Subaru will represent a vehicle with lesser total cost, especially maintenance and repair, than what we have had and compared to the other alternatives considered. Unfortunately my time is somewhat limited, and I have hit a wall in trying to sort through the data.
So these are some of the questions I hope you can help me with that remain even after hours of research:
My first decision is whether to get the 2.5 or 3.6 engine. I have read the very real and numerous threads on head gasket leaks. It appears to me that generally this has been a real and pervasive problem in previous generation cars, but newer generation cars seem to have improved in this area. I noticed significant improvement in the Consumer reliability charts beginning 2010. I've seen this discussed here, however I get bogged down in the proprietary nomenclature between the different engines, especially as engines in other models are discussed.
Is the 3.6 engine any better in this regard than the 2.5? I have also heard (second-hand) concerns that the 3.6 can tends to consume oil, and can be difficult and expensive to fix. What would be the relative real world difference if any between the reliability of these two engines. Sometimes I lean toward the 2.5's fuel economy, other times I lean toward the extra power and torque of the H6 as we often travel loaded with four adults. I also know the 3.6 has a slightly different, some say better, drive system and larger brakes.
In regard only to the Outback, what specifically has been done to address longevity issues by Subaru, and what year models were affected?
Did the redesign in 2013 of the 2.5 engine, which included the move from belt to to chain timing, make any further revision to the head gasket issues that might point toward a more reliable long-term experience?
Similarly, beginning 2013 I understand a smaller, lighter CVT is used. What changes to the CVT might indicate an improvement in reliability, or where the changes just made for other reasons? Will this same CVT be used in the 2015 3.6R car? If so, that might indicate Subaru's confidence in the unit, and would certainly mean it would tend to be reliable in the 2.5 application.
On the subject of transmission reliability how would you project the reliability of the automatic in the 3.R to be compared to the latest CVT?
Avery important issue I have wrestled with is what percentage of the total owner base do these issues actually represent. I've tried to weed out input from those with an obvious agenda, folks who obviously don't take proper care of the vehicle, those with smoke from a different fire, etc. And there is the effect to consider that attention to significant issues by some will bias the perspective on how many owners are actually seeing these issues. All marques have specific issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should throw out the baby with the bath water.
But how prevalent and pervasive are these issues versus owners who have few if any problems, as a percentage.
And how likely is it that the latest generation cars have addressed these issues?
Or is it just that enough time has not passed yet for them to show up?
In general how would you characterize the support of both Subaru and their dealers in dealing with the various issues these cars have historically had, as a predictor of future support? And maybe the acid-test, how likely is it that your next car will be a Subaru.
Indeed I stopped an Outback owner coming into our building the other day and asked how she liked her Outback. She said she loved it, and it was the best car she ever had. She indicated she only got about 26-27 mpg around town (which made me laugh to myself compared to some other cars I have considered). She had owned the car 4 years, which surprised me because I thought it looked new. Her last comment was "I would definitely buy another".
I have been very impressed with the forum here. There is a good balance between enthusiasm and pragmatism, with realistic, balanced, and honest no-nonsense discussions.
Thanks in advance for any of your experience and perspective on these questions and issues, and thanks for your patience. This will certainly help me with my decision, and will be a valuable resource for others like myself that are researching these cars that seem to be well-regarded and often loved.
I am in the market my next vehicle. Two actually, one for my wife and one for me. My wife and I decided to take a clean-sheet approach and look at the automotive market from a fresh perspective and try to find vehicles that both met our needs and that we were passionate about. We started from a point where buying essentially any vehicle we wanted new was the reference point, irrespective of cost. Then we both made laundry list of vehicles we were interested in, began a process of elimination focusing primarily on functionality for our specific needs and desires, and how much we liked the driving experience of a given vehicle. We also used Consumer Reports and other data as a reference point for eliminating vehicles with poor reliability. Once we narrowed the field, then we began to examine total cost of ownership issues, expected level of support from the manufacturer/dealer, and also very importantly from the virtual communities for each marque.
We have owned several Volvo's through the years and have had very good experience with them overall, feel they represent a great value that is often overlooked. Safety is one of my primary concerns, having been a former Deputy Sheriff for quite a while I have seen my share of accidents. So while we were generally very satisfied with the Volvo's, we have not been happy about the maintenance and repair costs that have accompanied our ownership. These vehicles have been perfect for us with the exception of these repair costs, and gas mileage which is on the low side. However, I have was not able to find a vehicle within the current Volvo alternatives that really meets my needs.
I am on the fence for wanting one of two types of vehicles: Either a very fun-to-drive sport sedan that will comfortably accommodate four adults. Or a utility vehicle that is also fun to drive. I have been fortunate to own several great driving cars through the years, and enjoy driving so this aspect is a priority for me.
After working through about two dozen vehicles (my wife has decided on an XC60 as her next vehicle) I have distilled my selection down at this point to either an Infiniti M37S as a sport sedan, or a Subaru Outback as a fun to drive utility vehicle.
My interest in the Outback was piqued by an experience during the test drive. There is a stretch of rural road near here I have been using for most of the test drives, which includes a sharp off camber turn, We were test driving a 2013 2.5 Limited with myself and three other adults in the car. When we approached the curve, a pickup truck veered over on my side of the curve as I approached at least two feet into my lane. I had to swerve as hard as possible as far to the right as the shoulder allowed, and then snatch the wheel back left to complete the off-camber portion of the curve. All this happened in just a few seconds. The Outback was not at all unsettled during this, and responded as you would hope it would without any drama whatsoever. We all were amazed. Wow was all I could say.
Another test drive a week later piqued my interest even further. I drove a 2013 Outback and an Infiniti M56S back-to-back. I first drove the Outback, and was impressed again by it's taut, responsive handling. It is firm but not harsh, with just maybe a little more sway than I like, but I understand this can be helped with an STI bar as many have done. I next drove the M56S (waaay more power than I would ever need) but found the handling, brakes, and ride to be superb, if not approaching or matching that of may exotic cars. About halfway through the drive, I told my wife, "You may think I am crazy, but I am amazed at the similarities between the way these two cars handle". Now obviously the M56S, at its limits, will eclipse the Outback in handling as this was the sport package car, purpose-built for handling. But at the level of handling where most of us spend a majority of our time, it was remarkable to me the similarity in ride, steering, and handling feel between the two cars. I found the Outback to be very responsive and to deliver a very enjoyable driving experience, surprisingly so. Subaru engineers really did their homework doing the 2013 suspension re-design, should be commended, and I hope they are able to read this.
So, let me summarize the strengths I see for my current situation in the Outback:
Outstanding safety record at or near the top of the heap.
Very good fuel economy for the segment relative to other similar AWD utility vehicles.
Excellent ergonomics and room, both front and back. Great headroom. The largest back seat we have seen of any vehicle we have looked at, remarkable considering the manageable exterior size.
Ground clearance, suspension travel, approach and departure angles, turning radius, and visibility bring a nearly worry-free perspective to driving in the every-day real-world conditions.
Excellent AWD reputation for inclement snow and ice weather, moderate off-road, and rainy conditions.
Excellent and versatile storage capacity.
Very comfortable interior, and excellent feature and option mix, especially in the Limited version.
Relatively seamless CVT operation in the 2013+ compared to an automatic.
Modest cost given the packaging and option level, very competitive.
Surprisingly good handling and driving experience.
It seems to be the Swiss army knife of vehicles, and a very good one at that.
I have spent several hours trying to explore the Outback, here and otherwise, trying to discern if the Subaru will represent a vehicle with lesser total cost, especially maintenance and repair, than what we have had and compared to the other alternatives considered. Unfortunately my time is somewhat limited, and I have hit a wall in trying to sort through the data.
So these are some of the questions I hope you can help me with that remain even after hours of research:
My first decision is whether to get the 2.5 or 3.6 engine. I have read the very real and numerous threads on head gasket leaks. It appears to me that generally this has been a real and pervasive problem in previous generation cars, but newer generation cars seem to have improved in this area. I noticed significant improvement in the Consumer reliability charts beginning 2010. I've seen this discussed here, however I get bogged down in the proprietary nomenclature between the different engines, especially as engines in other models are discussed.
Is the 3.6 engine any better in this regard than the 2.5? I have also heard (second-hand) concerns that the 3.6 can tends to consume oil, and can be difficult and expensive to fix. What would be the relative real world difference if any between the reliability of these two engines. Sometimes I lean toward the 2.5's fuel economy, other times I lean toward the extra power and torque of the H6 as we often travel loaded with four adults. I also know the 3.6 has a slightly different, some say better, drive system and larger brakes.
In regard only to the Outback, what specifically has been done to address longevity issues by Subaru, and what year models were affected?
Did the redesign in 2013 of the 2.5 engine, which included the move from belt to to chain timing, make any further revision to the head gasket issues that might point toward a more reliable long-term experience?
Similarly, beginning 2013 I understand a smaller, lighter CVT is used. What changes to the CVT might indicate an improvement in reliability, or where the changes just made for other reasons? Will this same CVT be used in the 2015 3.6R car? If so, that might indicate Subaru's confidence in the unit, and would certainly mean it would tend to be reliable in the 2.5 application.
On the subject of transmission reliability how would you project the reliability of the automatic in the 3.R to be compared to the latest CVT?
Avery important issue I have wrestled with is what percentage of the total owner base do these issues actually represent. I've tried to weed out input from those with an obvious agenda, folks who obviously don't take proper care of the vehicle, those with smoke from a different fire, etc. And there is the effect to consider that attention to significant issues by some will bias the perspective on how many owners are actually seeing these issues. All marques have specific issues, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should throw out the baby with the bath water.
But how prevalent and pervasive are these issues versus owners who have few if any problems, as a percentage.
And how likely is it that the latest generation cars have addressed these issues?
Or is it just that enough time has not passed yet for them to show up?
In general how would you characterize the support of both Subaru and their dealers in dealing with the various issues these cars have historically had, as a predictor of future support? And maybe the acid-test, how likely is it that your next car will be a Subaru.
Indeed I stopped an Outback owner coming into our building the other day and asked how she liked her Outback. She said she loved it, and it was the best car she ever had. She indicated she only got about 26-27 mpg around town (which made me laugh to myself compared to some other cars I have considered). She had owned the car 4 years, which surprised me because I thought it looked new. Her last comment was "I would definitely buy another".
I have been very impressed with the forum here. There is a good balance between enthusiasm and pragmatism, with realistic, balanced, and honest no-nonsense discussions.
Thanks in advance for any of your experience and perspective on these questions and issues, and thanks for your patience. This will certainly help me with my decision, and will be a valuable resource for others like myself that are researching these cars that seem to be well-regarded and often loved.
